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| | 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal | |
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+11SergioD Neil Aspinshaw Chelmsfordthescapegoat Chard1879 impi 90th old historian2 Drummer Boy 14 Dave Mr M. Cooper littlehand 15 posters | |
Author | Message |
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90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana Near A Kraal Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:00 am | |
| Ctsg. I'm willing to stay with Ian Knight thanks to your post . Until someone can prove to me or disprove the Knight comments in any evidential context , the assumption has no foundation . 90th. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:07 am | |
| Impi, CTSG. Thanks for the replies. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:35 am | |
| The bones referred to in the Colonist (mentioned by Jackson p.77) do not refer to anything on the spur where it joins the escarpment - no 24th were killed there. In all likelihood they refer to the rocky ridge or mound where Wolfe's men were that may have been washed up by the late 1879 rains. There was a kraal near that point. The only reference to 'remains' and a kraal where E coy had been (which I think promulgated this posting initially) came from Chadwick who in the 1970s claimed to have found a red jacket and some buttons and bones near a kraal in that position and posited the idea that it might have come from men of Dyson's section. Nothing further was done about this; nothing further came to light; and the kraal's remains have not again been found. Since the 24th men on the escarpment are known to have been brought down without loss (Essex's testimony) it may be that Chadwick's claim referred to the remains of dead Zulus, wounded in the battle and died later, being placed together under some stones. There were a number of Zulu burials by Boast who didn't record the locations. Those Zulus who had taken garments from dead soldiers and then mortally wounded would explain the jacket and buttons being with the bones. This is all speculation of course and we simply don't know. I believe Chadwick made a note of what he found and I might still have a copy of it somewhere. |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:51 pm | |
| Hi All, The more I mull over the possibilty of missing companies and Sgt Wolfe and his men and their fate , the more I think there is some credence in the hypothesis that all the men were not at the "front" in the main defence line at Isandlwana on 22/01 . I base this thinking on the statements of two or three eyewitnesses who survived the battle and who stated that the 1/24th companies were short on strength, ie varying from a minimum of only 250 men to 450 men, according to them. . So if full companies were 101 men each, and that x 6 = 606 men , then anything from 156 to 356 men were somewhere else. Maybe the dead missing men were found later, their numbers not recorded, or tallied, and their remains collected and placed under various cairns. Some we know legged it and survived, but even accounting for those ,the head count still dosn't tally Therefore the intriguing possiblity exists however, that the site of one or two last stands are yet to be found, a distance away from the battle ground , maybe on the slopes and spurs leading up to the northern escarpment .
regards
barry
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| | | Drummer Boy 14
Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:11 pm | |
| Barry
Wolfe was found near the firing line, close to where H Company had been stationed, given that Wardle the Captain and around 60 men of H Company managed to retreat 1,300 yards back to the camp, it most likely Wolfe acted as a rear gaurd for the rest of the company.
Also read my other post, Pulleine ordered any man who could carry a gun to be marched to the firing line and Wilson also records how the men on gaurd were taken to the firing line.
The 1/24th Companies average strenth was around 80 - 70 men.
Cheers |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2590 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:11 pm | |
| LH.
Came accross this in Jackson's HOTS page 77. "On the left front, "the missing companies" of the 24th had been found by Hlubi's Basutos in a kraal on the ridge". However he adds further down the page "The story that two companies of the 24th had been found in a kraal was thought to be without foundation".
But if a story like this was floating around at the time, and is only "thought" to be without foundation, it does make you wonder if there might be a grain of truth behind the story. I will keep looking through my books, and if I find anything else I will post it up for you. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:50 pm | |
| Martin Jackson here was describing the content of a Natal newspaper report claiming that Hlubi had discovered this in a kraal on the left front. The later report from the same paper makes it clear that the story was without foundation. This whole business of a 'missing 2 coys' is a red herring. All the coys' locations, whereabouts and actions that day are known. None are 'missing' with the sole exception of Murray's NNC, whose men must have been knackered and probably asleep until they were dragged out of their tents to assemble probably in front of their battalion's tents. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:58 pm | |
| Thanks Martin..
Julian do you know when this "red herring" story first came about? |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:17 pm | |
| The Good Lord Chelmsford, makes comment to a company, that were never seen again. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:50 pm | |
| Lhand I don't know for certain how it came about but I surmise it has something to do with Cavaye and Mostyn's coys going up on to the escarpment. For most of the time they would have effectively 'disappeared' or their backs would have been visible. When the other coys became engaged, Cavaye and Mostyn's swift retreat down the spur may have gone unnoticed by many in the camp - hence the fable of the missing coys. Alternatively it may relate to Roberts and Raw's two NNH troops who 'disappeared' on to the plateau and then weren't noticed on their return. In the immediate aftermath of the battle rumours, as we've already seen, were rife and would have spread like wildfire. None of Cavaye and Mostyn's men survived and were effectively 'never seen again', adding fuel to the fire's myth. As I said, how this story arose is supposition on my part, but, at the same time, every unit is accounted for, save Murray's, so the tale is obvious nonsense. CTSG Your sentence doesn't make sense. Perhaps you've mistyped. |
| | | Mr M. Cooper
Posts : 2590 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
| Subject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:10 pm | |
| Thanks for that Julian.
I wonder if the men that Hlubi's Basutos are supposed to have found could have been those of Wolfe's rear guard? They were found near a kraal. But again, I don't think Wolfes men were over there were they? Strange rumours can start and spread like wildfire, and before you know it, they can be given out to others as being factual and thus create a myth, and if myths are allowed to prosper, they can eventually become accepted as part of history, and eventually take over from the actual facts, and people start to believe the myths rather than the facts, and what a mess that can lead to. |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:20 pm | |
| Julian apologies for late reply, last miniute Christmas shopping.
I was referring to this..
Lord Chelmsford.
"regretted that the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn) had not given any authority for the statements he had made regarding his (Lord Chelmsford's) conduct when in command of the South African Forces. The speech of the noble and gallant Lord had taken him completely by surprise; because he could not discover by the Notice of Motion that the noble and gallant Lord intended to reopen the questions that had so very recently been discussed by the House. When on a previous occasion he had endeavoured to give a full, true, and clear account of the Isandlana disaster, his narrative had been based, not upon information exclusively possessed by himself, but upon the evidence of eyewitnesses, whoso statements had since been published in the newspapers. His 1031 account had been taken from evidence published in The Times of March 17 and 22; and he now challenged the noble and gallant Lord to say whether all the details of his speech were not borne out by that evidence. The noble and gallant Lord had quoted authorities to whose words the House would probably not attach very great importance. The noble and gallant Lord had referred to the statement in an article by Mr. Archibald Forbes in The Nineteenth Century. But to show how fallacious some of the statements were, he need only point out the inaccuracy of the story related in reference to Colonel Harness. Colonel Harness had himself referred to the incident in an article in Frazer's Magazine, and had given quite a different account; and, as a matter of fact, the statement that he was in a position to afford relief to the camp was quite incorrect. He (Lord Chelmsford) was on his way to the camp—it must have been between 3 and half-past, the whole affair being over at 1 o'clock—when he saw Colonel Harness about 500 yards from him, moving off in the direction of the camp, being then 10 miles distant from Isandlana. Major Cosset, his aide-de-camp, asked him if he should go and stop the battery, and he said—"Yes; he could not understand why they were moving." And yet in the public prints there had been an accusation that Major, now Lieutenant Colonel, Gosset, prevented valuable reinforcements going on to the camp, and was almost accountable for the disaster. There was not a particle of truth in the story. Another important statement made by the noble and gallant Lord had reference to the number of messages which he asserted he had received from the camp on the day in question. In point of fact, he only received one message from the camp in the course of that day, which was that mentioned in his despatch, which had been sent to him at 8 o'clock in the morning, and which was received by him at 9.30, which merely gave the information that a body of the enemy had been noticed in a north-westerly direction. From half-past 9 o'clock until he reached the camp on his return not a single message, if any were despatched, had reached him. His statement on this point was fully corroborated by Lieutenant Colonel Croalock, his 1032 Military Secretary, in his letter recently sent to a London newspaper, in which he gave a distinct denial to the story that several messages had been received. The noble and gallant Lord, in referring to his despatch, had declared that he had reflected upon the gallantry of the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the 24th Regiment by stating that they had run away from the enemy. He had made no such reflection upon that gallant body of men. He wrote that despatch immediately after arriving in Pietermaritzburg, five days after the disaster. In it he stated that— One company went off to the extreme left and has never heard of since, and the other five, I understand, engaged the enemy about a mile to the left front of the camp, and made there a most stubborn and gallant resistance. So anxious was he that the Government at home should receive a true and faithful account of what had occurred that he wrote the whole of the despatch with his own hand; but he must confess that, on calm consideration, he should have altered the the paragraph in it to which the noble and gallant Lord had referred, because it was, perhaps, capable of an interpretation which he had no idea would be placed upon it, and which he did not intend should be placed upon it. He much regretted that it had given pain in some quarters. He never intended that the smallest impression should be left on the minds of anyone that he reflected on the conduct of the 24th Regiment. The paragraph said— When, however, the Zulus got round the left flank of these brave men, they appear to have lost their presence of mind, and returned hastily to the tents, that had never been struck. He would not have used the term "brave men" had he intended to have reflected upon their courage. What he had in his mind at the time he wrote that paragraph was that the men of the 24th Regiment, finding that the Zulus had worked round their flank, and that it was hopeless to remain where they were, had retired hastily with the view of taking up the stronger position which they should never have left. In his opinion, under the circumstances, it would have been better for them to have remained where they were, and to have fought it out on the spot without attempting to retire. They had been fighting an enemy outside their camp, 1033 and it was hopeless for the poor fellows to expect to get back." |
| | | barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Move to kraal Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:29 am | |
| Hi CTSG, A good post, Thanks for sharing it. Nothing too new in it however, as all those details have been revealed by other good researchers before. If anyone should have known how many men were available that day it should have been Chelmsford. What was very interesting about the post is that it was calling a spade a spade , bypassing the normal ridiculous Victorian trait of glorifying quite horrible and distasteful behaviors and events, The article was quite explicit too about the rout and men deserting their posts. In saying that I am not been crticial, I would have done so too, with even greater speed, if I had run out of ammunition.
regards
barry
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