WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Farnborough Hill
Today at 2:10 am by 90th

» Captain Walter Stafford NNC medals
Yesterday at 4:04 am by 90th

» Gerald French, liar or not?
Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm by Frank Allewell

» A bit more fun research!
Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:22 am by rusteze

» Trooper H. Boik (NMP) and Dartnell patrol Isandlwana, 22 January 1879
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 am by whizz-bang

» Norris-Newman
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:52 pm by Kenny

» Some fun research
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am by Frank Allewell

» Isipezi Hill
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 pm by ALLENG

» Zulu shield question
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:03 am by SRB1965

» Buyer beware!..
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:47 pm by xhosa2000

» Colonel Farquhar Glennie
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:48 pm by SRB1965

» A number of SAGS for Sale at C Dixons
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:38 pm by xhosa2000

» Zulu Arts & Crafts Event.
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:50 pm by 24th foot

» Sir Henry Evelyn Wood VC, GCB, GCMG
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:37 pm by xhosa2000

» Captain Walter Stafford, 1st Natal Native Contingent,
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:18 pm by ADMIN

Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards. killed at Hlobane
[Mac & Shad] Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards --killed at Hlobane (Mac and Shad) (Isandula Collection)
Rob Caskie at a Showcase Event 2014
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
90th
 
xhosa2000
 
Frank Allewell
 
rusteze
 
John Young
 
Tee
 
SRB1965
 
24th foot
 
ALLENG
 
Kenny
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Charlie Harford took "two officer deserters into custody." This is noted in his own personal diary after the battle.

Lieutenants Higginson and Stephenson of the NNC.

Are there any other known or documented cases of deserters/ cowardice during the battle? (Apart from the trooper who was shot, apparently deserting RD as discussed on this forum).


Last edited by tasker224 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1606
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:34 pm

There's a thread that covers this on the forum..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Thanks for the links Dave. So to the list of deserters/ cowards, we can add Captain Carey and Lieutenant Hayward.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:05 pm

So the list of Officer deserters/cowards reads:

Captain Carey 98th Regt.

Lieutenant Avery NNC.

Lieutenant Holcroft NNC.

Lieutenants Higginson NNC.

Lieutenant Stephenson NNC.

Lieutenant Harward 80th Regt.


Possibly:
Lieutenant Adendorfff NNC ???


Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3578
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Tasker, before including "Captain Carey" research him first. He died a very broken man. A sad story!! Salute
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Tasker

Even if Adenorff wasn't at RD (which he was ), how does that make him a coward ? He had no men their and dozens of
others passed on without even stopping to talk, why does Adenorff get singled out ?

Also Carey, if he had returned and tryed to save the prince they would both have been killed, Carey had a revolver
with only 6 shots and there were something like 16 Zulus chasing the prince .

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1263
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:54 pm

You can add Durnford to the list!!!
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
You can add Durnford to the list!!!

Question
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:09 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker

Even if Adenorff wasn't at RD (which he was ), how does that make him a coward ? He had no men their and dozens of
others passed on without even stopping to talk, why does Adenorff get singled out ?

Also Carey, if he had returned and tryed to save the prince they would both have been killed, Carey had a revolver
with only 6 shots and there were something like 16 Zulus chasing the prince .

Cheers

DB14, I am not saying anyone definitely is, or isn't, I am just posting names mentioned in accounts, as possibly being deserters. See the 2 links that Dave posted, above. I realise that Adendorff may well have stayed and helped defend RD as according to Chard's roll, but there is also a theory that he slipped away from RD. He was also the other officer with Avery and Holcroft who did desert their posts before iSandlwana, so chances are he did too. Read Dave's second link.
Carey, again, his name has come up in accounts, but I am not judging him.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:15 pm

Tasker

Sorry about that than, but Adenorff said he would stay and there is no evidece that he left, just nonsence spread by Morris and believed by others who haven't reasharched the accounts. He was there in the morning when Chelsford force marched in and relieved the post, what more evidence does anyone need than that ?


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:16 pm

If names are going to be posted, then may I suggest, the accusation of Desertion is backup with primary evidence. For example "Carey" was not found guilty of Desertion!!
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9272
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Officer Deserters / Cowards Who Fled Isandlwana   Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:49 pm

Hi Tasker .
Holcroft and Avery were hungry I'd expect more than deserting , there were many fires ( zulu )around their camp and you'd be a bit worried I'd think attempting to negotiate your way back to the camp at night in those circumstances . I'd be thinking safety in numbers and would've needed a decent reason to attempt a night ride . Thats how I see it .
Cheers 90th
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:01 pm

DB have read TWOTS.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:03 pm

Here you go, here's the article Dave's link leads to:

"Officer desertions from the field of battle during the Anglo-Zulu War were too numerous
for comfort.
By Dr Andres Traverse"

And here is his bibliography: (You trawl through them if you wish to)

Barfield, Doreen, “For Valour” At Fugitives Drift. The South African Military History
Society Journal Vol 1 No 6.
Farwell, Byron, Mr Kipling’s Army All the Queen’s Men. Norton & Co, New York,
1981.
Greaves, Adrian, Crossing the Buffalo the Zulu War of 1879. Cassell, London 2005
Greaves, Adrian, Isandlwana. Cassell, London 2005
Greaves, Adrian, Editor, Redcoats and Zulus, Selected essays from The Journal of the
Anglo Zulu War Society, Pen & Sword. Barnesley 2004
Greaves, Adrian, Rorke’s Drift. Cassell, London 2002
Greaves, Adrian and Knight, Ian, Who’s Who in the Zulu War Volumes 1 and 2.
Pen & Sword, Barnsley 2006
Keegan, John and Holmes, Richard, Soldiers a History of Men in Battle, Viking Penguin
Inc, New York 1986
Knight, Ian, Brave Men’s Blood. Greenhill Books, London 1990
Knight, Ian, The Mysterious Lieutenant Adendorff of Rorke’s Drift; Hero or Coward?
Anglo Zulu War Historical Society Journal.
Knight, Ian, The National Army Museum Book of the Zulu War. Pan Books, London2003
Knight, Ian, With His Face to the Foe, The Life and Death of Louis Napoleon, The
Prince Imperial Zululand 1879. Jonathan Ball Publishers, Johannesburg 2001
Lock, Ron, Blood on the Painted Mountain Zulu Victory and defeat Hlobane and
Kambula, 1879. Greenhill Books, London 1995
Lock, Ron and Quantrill, Peter, Zulu Victory, The Epic of Isandlwana and the Cover-up.
Greenhill Books, London 2002
Morris, Donald, The Washing of the Spears, The Rise and Fall of the Zulu Nation.
Jonathan Cape Ltd, London 1972
Payne, David and Emma, Harford, The Writings, Photographs & Sketches. Ultimatum
Tree Ltd, Wales 2008
Wolseley, Col. Sir Garnet, The Soldiers Pocket Book for Field Service, Macmillan & Co,
London 1871
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:04 pm

impi wrote:
DB have read TWOTS.

I did read it, it had no evidence given and Morris made up huge sections of the book, such as accouts by James Hammer ect, and.



Cheers
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:08 pm

All, I have edited the title of the thread, I had not intended for it to be a Tasker lead witch hunt!
I was hoping to be lead to accounts of reported cowardice and desertions, such as Dave's post, the second in this thread.
Adendorff for example, there are two versions to his story (though I am inclined to believe he did not desert RD as does DB14) and Carey was in fact tried and found guilty of desertion at court martial, though later cleared.

Not looking to judge anyone, 134 years later!

Lord Wolseley on the other hand never did beat about the bush, did he?

"Lord Wolseley felt the need to comment publicly regarding
court martial verdicts involving officer desertion. He was clearly appalled by the conduct
of too many of his subordinates and it seemed that some officers were treated too lightly
in his opinion. Without a doubt, these men of rank deserted to save themselves in
situations where other soldiers remained at their posts to fight bravely with many dying
for their Queen and country."
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:32 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
impi wrote:
DB have read TWOTS.

I did read it, it had no evidence given and Morris made up huge sections of the book, such as accouts by James Hammer ect, and.



Cheers

A good precis here, if you don't have TWOTS:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:11 pm

References/ allegations to Officer deserters/cowards, proved or disproven reads:

Captain Carey 98th Regt.

Lieutenant Avery NNC.

Lieutenant Holcroft NNC.

Lieutenants Higginson NNC.

Lieutenant Stephenson NNC.

Lieutenant Harward 80th Regt.

Lieutenant Adendorfff NNC ???

Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc   

Back to top Go down
 
Accounts of alleged Officer deserters/ cowards who fled iSandlwana etc
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: