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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorkes Drift roll of defenders
Yes
49%
 49% [ 23 ]
No
4%
 4% [ 2 ]
More research should have been done
45%
 45% [ 21 ]
It was all a publicly stunt
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Doesn't really matter
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 47
 

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Tue May 14, 2013 11:34 pm

24th There is evidence that suggests Jenkins was at R D, but It still remains there is no official documentation to confirm that, and that’s why this discussion has continued. At the end of the day, in the absence of anything definitive one way or the other, the conclusion on whether he was there or not will likely to remain open. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 12:33 am

Quote :
At the end of the day, in the absence of anything definitive one way or the other, the conclusion on whether he was there or not will likely to remain open.

True, there are no offical reports that say David Jenkins was at Rorkes Drift!.
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PostSubject: Forgotten Survivor of RD returned to official records    Wed May 15, 2013 12:39 am

It may be me Dave but doesnt chard mention Jenkins shouting a warning to him which resulted in him ( Chard ) not being killed ? .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 12:47 am

Yes! But I don't think he shouted " David Jenkins" He said Pte Jenkins.
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PostSubject: Forgotten survivor of RD   Wed May 15, 2013 12:55 am

Well, there were two 'Jenkins' at RD, one was incapable of moving in the hospital and was killed by the Zulu's there, the other was on the wall and shouted to Chard warning him of the Zulu about to shoot at him.

The third Jenkins was the one killed at iSandlwana, and this is the one that earlier historians are supposed to have got mixed up with.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 1:09 am

Agree with Martin , Dave how many Jenkins do you think were at R.D? .. One was killed in the hospital and one was on the wall.
If you wish to think differently to the historians so be it . Obviously you think the Historians got it wrong , ie Whybra , Wheatley etc etc .
Cheers 90th. agree

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 5:31 pm

The regimental diary is the only proof that is needed to confirm David Jenkins was at the defence as Bill Cainan pointed out weeks ago. Everything else, what Chard said, the Chard roll, the bible, the Bultler sketch etc is all extra secondary evidence that puts the cherry on top
If David Payne is happy with the diary in addition to all the other experts who've seen it and confirms this in the very near future after his recent visit to the museum, I am sure any doubt will be removed once and for all, even from the most closed-minded.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 7:31 pm

I don't think Jenkins was on the chard roll? It's one of those occasions, where there are those who are happy enough to go along with what's been agreed by a few Historians, and those who want primary evidence that shows David as being at RD.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 8:34 pm

As far as I can see, Its only the Bible, that confirms his presence at Rorkes Drfit. I think this question was asked a while back.

What documentation did the ladies of Durban use, when presenting the Bibles. They must have been given a list of names of those defenders that were going to receive them?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 15, 2013 9:25 pm

Quote :
What documentation did the ladies of Durban use, when presenting the Bibles. They must have been given a list of names of those defenders that were going to receive them?

I did ask simular, but got no reply. Only to be expected... Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 12:44 am

Firstly, the David Jenkins's bible contains a bookplate which is exactly identical to other RD Bibles held by the Regimental Museum at Brecon. His name with his regimental number (295) again are written in similar handwriting as the other bibles. It appears very genuine.

Now we come to the difficult bit. There was a list of defenders published in the local Natal newspapers at the time - the well-known Chard roll and report. The Cantwell roll which did not appear until 1935 (and was reproduced in 1937 Atkinson history of SWB) - however this later roll replicates with errors in the original Chard roll.

There are two Jenkins of 1/24th at RD on both these rolls - neither are given first name or initial. 841 James Jenkins was killed at RD. The other Jenkins was given number 1083 - this cannot be correct as 1083 Jenkins was killed Isandlwana.

When you look at the early published roll (the Chard roll) of the 11 men of 1/24th at RD - the entries for 4 of them have errors - either the name is mis-spelt or the personal number is wrong. Why? (1) Chard had only arrived just in South Africa - he did not know any of the men of the 24th (2) CSgt Bourne would have held the names of the men of B Company but would not have personally known the soldiers in the other companies of 2/24th and certainly not men of 1/24th. For these reasons errors crept in. And of course there were no computers around in those days - everything in those days was handwritten and transcription errors were frequent.

However the clinching evidence is the handwritten Regimental Record of Service (or Diary) for 2/24th held at Brecon - written by the Adjutant 2/24th - which lists the names of 1/24th present at the defence of RD - and this list includes Private D Jenkins. The important bit being the 'D'.

When Norman Holme started compiling his medal rolls for 24th Foot in early 1960s, he did not have the benefit of computers - and I remember he started a manual card index (there are 2,772 names on the 24th Foot roll). He knew that there were two Jenkins from 1/24th at RD but was unable to resolve error - he was not aware of the existence of the entry for David Jenkins in Battalion Record of Service as in latter years he undertook most of his research at home in North Wales.

I am currently undertaking research into the pay & muster rolls (1873-1879) of the 25th Brigade Regimental District (i.e. the Regimental Depot of the 24th at Brecon) to track the movement of soldiers prior to their posting to South Africa for the AZW. It is slow and laborious work as everything is handwritten; again I have found the clerks/paymaster have made errors with the spelling of names and the soldiers regimental numbers. Many soldiers were allocated new numbers from the old battalion series to the 25th Brigade series or as a result of being posted from another regiment. What I am trying to say is that this type of research is not an exact science. Many people who use this site have never visited an archive in their life - and expect the internet to provide them all the answers instantaneously. Many authors on AZW seem now to regurgitate the works of previously published authors without having tracked down source documents in the Killie Campbell Library in Durban, the KZN Archives in Pietermaritzburg. the Amothole Museum in Kingwilliamstown and the National Library in Cape Town. And of course you also have to sit on the veranda at Rorke's Drift and imagine what it was like for the soldiers defending the mission station at 4pm on 22nd January 1879. An awesome prospect.

I remember a few years ago going to Worthing to an unveiling of a blue plaque (paid for by local residents) for RD defender 2453 Pte William Cooper. He had committed suicide in February 1942 by putting his head in the gas oven - the horrors of those few hours at RD had never left him. Please never forget William Cooper when making your next post on this forum.

Yes the evidence does support Private David Jenkins, H Company, 1/24th Foot as being at RD.





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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 5:23 am

It is beyond question that there were two Jenkins at RD. Ignoring the roll there are three seperate prime sources that confirm that. Reynolds Smith and Chard. You need to study mo
Thats fact! You need to study mo
One died in the hospital, fact. You need to study mo
One fought on the wall and suvived. You need to study mo

If any of the nay sayers wish to disput those statements then do it with fact. Dont get lost in conjecture. You need to study mo

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 7:16 am

You can't say Primary sources their accounts. If we took defenders account as gospel, we would have had the Zulu attacking at different times, and using MH rifles.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 9:51 am

I can and do say primary sources because they were there and witnessed the events. Of course there are going to be variances in statements, taken from differing view points. But you cannot dismiss them out of hand because they dont fit your thesis. The only evidence of what happened is through the suvivors statements, discount that and you have no evidence the battle actually took place.
Any statement has to be weighted and read in conjunction with other available evidence. The fact there are three seperate confirmations plus a mass of other evidence has to be given lots of credence.
Your allusion to the MH is a case in point. One person mentions the possible use by the zulu. It cant be discounted or ignored but the weight of evidence against it would tend to be negative. Although the RD battlefield is a very small area its entirely possible that CS Bourne was wrong in believing the sound came from Shiyane. Its a possibliity that it was a reflected sound, or even considering that he could have been on the South face, possibly by the cattle kraal, that an MH fired in isolation from either the hospital or the north wall could have created the same effect. Im not say ing it did, just that there is a possibility.If however another suviver had mentioned it then the weight of evidence would have swung towards CS Bourne
In terms of the timing, very few of the rank and file owned time pieces, so times would be estimated rather than in todays world where a quick glance at the wrist would do the job. So yes any reference to timing would be highly influenced by the source.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Forgotten survivor of RD   Thu May 16, 2013 1:15 pm

As I stated in another post, earlier researchers mixed up the Jenkins KIA at iSandlwana with one of the Jenkins at RD, however, better research done by such renowned people as Julian and Kris, has shown that David Jenkins was indeed at RD, and they both include David Jenkins as being a defender at RD in their books.

Kenny has mentioned William Cooper (also a defender at RD), if earlier researchers/historians had mixed up William Cooper (RD), with one of the other three Coopers (one also called William), that were all KIA at iSandlwana, we could well be discussing another defender who was almost forgotten to history, but luckily, this did not happen, and William Cooper will be remembered as a defender of RD. But it just goes to show how easy it can be to get mixed up with people with the same surnames, and this is what happened in the case of David Jenkins.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 1:22 pm

Quote :
researchers mixed up earlier researchers mixed up the Jenkins KIA at iSandlwana with one of the Jenkins at RD

There lies the problem, "Researchers"

Martin we are gaining no ground, when you repeat what your researchers have already stated.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 1:28 pm

impi
To move any discussion forward requires points to be made not a blanket denial or refusal to put forward a valid point. Unfortunatly your arguments are merely a denial of events and/or critisism of some really very very good researchers abilities. IF you have a point or a cogent argument then bring it on.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 1:37 pm

You all put to much faith in researches, and some of them disagree on the Jenkins subject. Your all to quick to Jump on the Julian Whybra waggon, If Julian says it happen, then it did. Lets see what David Payne comes back with, he is also a researcher!!! agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 3:02 pm

You really are incapable of reading and assimilating the facts put forward. Please please read the occasional post and get over your obsesion with trying to denigate a gifted and respected historian.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 3:25 pm

No
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 3:41 pm

And that says it all.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 3:59 pm

springbok9 wrote:
And that says it all.

Did you assume that!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 4:29 pm

Quote :
What documentation did the ladies of Durban use, when presenting the Bibles. They must have been given a list of names of those defenders that were going to receive them?

Thought I would ask again!! Does anyone know?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 5:37 pm

Hi All

We are still uncovering new lines of enquiry and we hope to have some answers back next week from our contacts in South Africa so then the report can drafted and made available by the 1st June. We are still on target.
It is amazing what information comes out when you lift a stone or two or three.

Regards

David

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 8:20 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Quote :
What documentation did the ladies of Durban use, when presenting the Bibles. They must have been given a list of names of those defenders that were going to receive them?

Thought I would ask again!! Does anyone know?

Maybe the ladies just took a wild guess, yeah? Joker
All I know is, they included David Jenkins,
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 9:00 pm

No need for that Tasker. It's a fair question. I have noticed you do tend to start a lot of the arguments., with your childest sarcasm. If anyone's the troll it's you. You cause the trouble then disappear into the back ground..
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Quote :
It's a fair question.
it was Salute

Why don't you all sit back relax and wait until 1st June Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 9:34 pm

Kenny wrote:
Firstly, the David Jenkins's bible contains a bookplate which is exactly identical to other RD Bibles held by the Regimental Museum at Brecon. His name with his regimental number (295) again are written in similar handwriting as the other bibles. It appears very genuine.

Now we come to the difficult bit. There was a list of defenders published in the local Natal newspapers at the time - the well-known Chard roll and report. The Cantwell roll which did not appear until 1935 (and was reproduced in 1937 Atkinson history of SWB) - however this later roll replicates with errors in the original Chard roll.

There are two Jenkins of 1/24th at RD on both these rolls - neither are given first name or initial. 841 James Jenkins was killed at RD. The other Jenkins was given number 1083 - this cannot be correct as 1083 Jenkins was killed Isandlwana.

When you look at the early published roll (the Chard roll) of the 11 men of 1/24th at RD - the entries for 4 of them have errors - either the name is mis-spelt or the personal number is wrong. Why? (1) Chard had only arrived just in South Africa - he did not know any of the men of the 24th (2) CSgt Bourne would have held the names of the men of B Company but would not have personally known the soldiers in the other companies of 2/24th and certainly not men of 1/24th. For these reasons errors crept in. And of course there were no computers around in those days - everything in those days was handwritten and transcription errors were frequent.

However the clinching evidence is the handwritten Regimental Record of Service (or Diary) for 2/24th held at Brecon - written by the Adjutant 2/24th - which lists the names of 1/24th present at the defence of RD - and this list includes Private D Jenkins. The important bit being the 'D'.

When Norman Holme started compiling his medal rolls for 24th Foot in early 1960s, he did not have the benefit of computers - and I remember he started a manual card index (there are 2,772 names on the 24th Foot roll). He knew that there were two Jenkins from 1/24th at RD but was unable to resolve error - he was not aware of the existence of the entry for David Jenkins in Battalion Record of Service as in latter years he undertook most of his research at home in North Wales.

I am currently undertaking research into the pay & muster rolls (1873-1879) of the 25th Brigade Regimental District (i.e. the Regimental Depot of the 24th at Brecon) to track the movement of soldiers prior to their posting to South Africa for the AZW. It is slow and laborious work as everything is handwritten; again I have found the clerks/paymaster have made errors with the spelling of names and the soldiers regimental numbers. Many soldiers were allocated new numbers from the old battalion series to the 25th Brigade series or as a result of being posted from another regiment. What I am trying to say is that this type of research is not an exact science. Many people who use this site have never visited an archive in their life - and expect the internet to provide them all the answers instantaneously. Many authors on AZW seem now to regurgitate the works of previously published authors without having tracked down source documents in the Killie Campbell Library in Durban, the KZN Archives in Pietermaritzburg. the Amothole Museum in Kingwilliamstown and the National Library in Cape Town. And of course you also have to sit on the veranda at Rorke's Drift and imagine what it was like for the soldiers defending the mission station at 4pm on 22nd January 1879. An awesome prospect.

I remember a few years ago going to Worthing to an unveiling of a blue plaque (paid for by local residents) for RD defender 2453 Pte William Cooper. He had committed suicide in February 1942 by putting his head in the gas oven - the horrors of those few hours at RD had never left him. Please never forget William Cooper when making your next post on this forum.

Yes the evidence does support Private David Jenkins, H Company, 1/24th Foot as being at RD.

Hello Kenny,

Very interesting post.
Are you a historian?

Regard

Ymob



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 9:42 pm

Kenny I see you have an interest in Cooper. Not sure if you have seen this..click on link..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 16, 2013 10:38 pm

Deleted.. Tasker last warning please watch your wording.
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Mr David Payne



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PostSubject: Was he There   Tue May 28, 2013 11:02 pm

Hi Folks

Our conclusions are a few days early.

If you are members of the AZWHS the report is now live on their website.

For other folks log in to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Then select 'Book Reviews' and then go on to 'Rorke's Dift' and it is the item at the foot.

I look forward to receiving constructive comments because as stated these are our opinions and if any evidence comes forward to prove our theories wrong and it proves he was there then we will give him the respect he duly deserves.

Regards

David
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 9:25 am

Hi David
Thank you for the paper. A lot to digest and I hope a lot for discussion. For the time being the presentation refering to the possibility of Jenkins popping in and out of the Hospital reminds me of the Kennedy magic Bullet.
Reynolds is pretty emphatic when he refers to the: "two men Sergeant Robert Maxwell and Private James Jenkins, both G company 2/24th were Debilitated by fever." Hardly the condition condusive to running back to the barricades under strong fire to warn Chard then dashing back to the hospital and being killed. Smith again pretty solid in reporting Jenkins Death.

The fact again that there are two Jenkins listed on the 3rd Feb roll hasnt been addressed. Jenkins 841 killed and Jenkins 1083.
Possibly a third Jenkins to throw into the melting pot?

The so called Escort party placed on route to PMB from Helpmakkar was supposed to contain Wilson and Roy, both of whom are firmly placed at RD, surely this would then call into question the existance of that party in that time and place.

I really dont have the answers to a lot of the questions but do believe that the issue hasnt yet been addressed correctly.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 8:49 pm

From the link posted by forum member David Payne.

"

Author:
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Pte. D. Jenkins, G Company, 1st /24th Was he there – or not? By Dr Adrian Greaves ___________________________________________________________________________ An interesting scenario has arisen over the history of Pte. D. Jenkins, G Company, 1st /24th following recent press interest. As members will appreciate, Dr David Payne of the AZWRS and I have been literally bombarded with queries and observations from our respective Society members, and the media, about this matter. So that we don’t have to prepare a large amount of individual replies, we have put together this Journal article so that our initial thoughts are known to Society members.

 Last year I was forwarded newspaper correspondence from a descendent of Pte Jenkins, Mr Rees. This stated that there had been a re-dedication of his relative’s grave which now showed Pte. D. Jenkins as a ‘Rorke’s Drift defender’. I was initially delighted with the news. As this was new to me, I conducted some research into this. There is a Pte. David Jenkins of G Company who is recorded by the Zulu War researchers, Alan Baynham-Jones and Lee Stevenson, as being a questionable survivor of Isandlwana. This is based upon Pte David Jenkins who wrote a letter home in which he specifically states he survived the battle of Isandlwana.

He wrote.... ‘being only one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies’. I could find no report of this Jenkins listed as an Isandlwana survivor and, equally oddly, Jenkins didn’t mention Rorke’s Drift in this letter.

 The numerous histories, accounts and documents on the subject likewise don’t mention this Jenkins being at either Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift – neither Dr David Payne nor I could find his name on any of the rolls of participants at Rorke’s Drift. The Chard Report merely states that Chard was given a warning by Pte. Jenkins of the 24th - but could Chard have been referring to Pte James Jenkins of the 24th? Pte. James Jenkins appears on the various nominal rolls as a defender at Rorke’s Drift - and he certainly participated in the battle because he was killed towards the end of the fighting. James W Bancroft in his book, The Zulu War, 1879. Rorke's Drift (Spellmount 1988) wrote; Lt Chard would also have been killed if Pte Jenkins had not shouted a warning and pulled his officer's head down just as a Zulu round whizzed over it. Private Jenkins himself was later killed.

 The art expert, Oliver Millar, wrote at length about Lady Butler’s painting, which Mr Rees partly relies on for his claim, on the grounds that Pte David Jenkins was a model for the famous painting. You will find part of Millar’s comment in Journal 15. When describing the key to the figures he makes a comment, one that has never been challenged.... One of these is inscribed ‘Jenkins’ by the artist but no soldier of this name is recorded as having been at the action. (Other than the Jenkins killed).

 It was stated in the newspapers at the time the unit returned home that ‘amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were “a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….who had been to the rear with prisoners’. Jenkins also wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January, some suggest it was sent on the 28th. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location well over 100 miles of rough tracks from Rorke’s Drift, which tallies with the above words ‘to the rear’. He was not with the 5 companies of the 1st Battalion present at Isandlwana. In his letter he wrote about the fact that 5 companies, had been slain at Isandlwana, and he was ‘one of only 10 survivors that escaped’. If he had been at Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, how did he get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly?

 The relevant parts of his letter are as follows; Zululand January 26, 1879. Dear Father, Just a few lines to let you know that I am one of the ten men that escaped out of the five companies.

The letter signed off: No 295 David Jenkins 'G' Company, 1-24th Regiment Pietermaritzburg. Natal.

In Norman Holme’s The Silver Wreath you will see that there has always been confusion with regard to ‘who was where’ due to any number of bogus Rorke’s Drift claimants. Bearing in mind all that has been written over the years by well-respected researchers and historians about Rorke’s Drift defenders, I suggested Mr Rees obtained a copy of Jenkins’ Service Record as this should show exactly where he was on which date. My own research to date shows that Jenkins’ records make no mention of Rorke’s Drift or Isandlwana, though this is not in itself conclusive.

Meanwhile, Mr Rees has presented his case to the National Army Museum who contacted both me and Ian Knight. We have both expressed our reservations on the matter, based on the absence of any actual evidence that we are aware of. Apart from the 2nd Battalion medal roll, we have not been able to find any reference to Pte. David Jenkins. So far, we have had checked the following Army records for evidence of whereabouts of this soldier on the 22nd and 23rd January 1879, without success. Casualties – Isandlwana – 22nd January 1879

Casualties Rorke’s Drift 22nd/23rd January 1879

 Nominal Roll Rorke’s Drift – Bourne List – from Regimental Pay Roll for January 1879 Nominal Roll –

 Lt. Chard 3rd February 1879 Nominal Roll –

 Major Dunbar January 1880 Nominal Roll

– not attributed – Cantwell?

Roll of Honour – undated. Illuminated Scroll – In memoriam.

 Men of the 2nd Battalion Who Received a Copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. Various medal rolls of the AZW. (Hart’s List and Dutton’s Zulu and Basuto Wars)

 Local General Orders, South Africa, 1878-79

 Mr Rees’ response to my above observations ‘Was he there – or not?’ (Comments by Mr Rees are indicated by his title, Mr Rees. My own comments commence with my initials AG.) Mr Rees.

 There are two worthy sources which comment on James Edmund Jenkins's death in the hospital. I quote: a) '... the only men actually killed in the hospital were three ... The names were Sergeant Maxfield, Private Jenkins, both unable to assist in their escape, being debilitated by fever, and Private Adams.' (The Report of Surgeon Reynolds - see 'Rorke's Drift' by Dr. Adrian Greaves, p 402) b) 'One poor fellow, Jenkins, venturing through one of these (the holes in the hospital partition walls), was also seized and dragged away ...’ (Reverend George Smith's account).

 AG. All these references only refer to a Pte Jenkins, not Pte David Jenkins. And see Bancroft’s comment above that Jenkins was killed. Gunner Evans RA later wrote that he lost two friends at Rorke’s Drift, Adams and Jenkins of the 24th.

Mr Rees. There are actually two references to the behaviour of an 'active', 'fit' second Jenkins in Chard's Second Report. a) The first (p 373 RD by Dr AG) includes this 'other' Jenkins amongst a group of soldiers who, early in the battle, repelled the attacks of the Zulus with 'great coolness and gallantry'. Remember James Edmund Jenkins was in the hospital in the grips of a fever.

AG. There was only one Jenkins mentioned - James Edmund Jenkins. Sick or not, using a rifle would have been second nature to him. He could easily have left the hospital at various times during the 12 hour engagement. To claim he was ‘in the grips of a fever’ is speculation. Furthermore, Pte David Jenkins was hardly ‘active’ and ‘fit’ – the poor fellow suffered from syphilis – which begs two supplementary questions; 1. What was he doing on the front line, and 2. How did this syphilitic soldier get back to Pietermaritzburg so quickly?

 b) The second refers to an incident a couple of hours into the battle, long after JEJ had been killed and outside the hospital.

 AG. This timing is speculative. We don’t know at which point in the fighting that Jenkins was killed.

Mr Rees. Chard writes, 'While I was intently watching to get a fair shot at a Zulu who appeared to be firing rather well, Jenkins 24th, saying 'Look out, Sir,' gave my head a duck down just as a bullet whizzed over it. He had noticed a Zulu who was quite near in another direction taking a deliberate aim at me. For all the man could have known, the shot might have been directed at himself. I mention these facts to show how well the men behaved and how loyally worked together.' (p375-6 'RD' by Dr AG, and p111 'Zulu' by Ian Knight, an extract highlighted to me by the Royal Engineers TA Group in Swansea). These I believe indicate that 'another' Jenkins was present.

 AG. Like other references from participants, Chard only refers to a Jenkins. With regard to Mr Rees’ ‘belief’; this acknowledges it is open to other interpretations.

 Mr Rees. Soon after the battle David sent a letter home to his father to reassure him that he was still alive.

 The first part of the letter has puzzled many researchers because it appears to suggest that he was one of the fortunate survivors of Isandlwana. However, no trace of his presence there can be found in the regimental archives. Perhaps David realised that the big talking point in England would be of the disaster and casualties at Isandlwana. As he is writing so soon after 22nd January he might not have been able to distinguish between the two separate 'battles' but was rather seeing both as part of one big battle

. AG. This is the most serious defect in Mr Rees’ claim, and the whole story.

 1. I have doubts that anyone who fought on that day could not have been able to differentiate between whether he was at Rorke’s Drift or Isandlwana. If Jenkins had been a Rorke’s Drift defender, I suspect he would have known. No one else saw him at Rorke’s Drift and he is not featured in any of the Nominal Rolls of those present, nor in participants’ letters and accounts of the action. Neither is he recorded as having even been at Isandlwana.

 2. Pte David Jenkins’s G Company, commanded by Captain Thomas Rainforth, was stationed at Helpmekaar. As Jenkins’s letter to his parents was signed off with the location of Pietermaritzberg and G Company 1/24th, he was probably engaged on duty, or under prisoners’ escort (he had a distasteful disciplinary record), somewhere between Helpmakaar and Pietermaritzburg during the 22nd/23rd January, not as is being claimed, surviving Isandlwana or fighting at Rorke’s Drift.

3. Accounts of the fighting would have rapidly become common knowledge throughout the army, emanating from the fugitives departing Rorke's Drift en route to Helpmekaar. I suspect this could be the source that inspired Jenkins’ muddled letter home.

 Mr Rees. In the second half of the letter David asks his father to contact Isaac Lewis, a neighbour in the Brecon area, to tell him of the death of his son-in-law, George Chambers, at Isandlwana and the narrow escape of his son, Bombardier Thomas Lewis, at the Drift. David writes of Thomas's escape from the hospital at RD to the 'fort' (which was a term used by men at the Drift for the 'fortified' area position which the soldiers had fallen back to in the later stages of the battle). His letter, therefore does speak of RD ‘as if he witnessed this young man's rescue and escape’

 AG. This is pure speculation – using words like ‘as if he witnessed’ is hardly evidence.

Mr Rees. 'he came from the hospital to the fort through all the firing'. (The letter appeared in 'The Merthyr Express' in March 1879 and a Welsh Language Newspaper, 'Y Gwladgarwyr' a week later. These newspapers are online at, respectively, Merthyr Central Library and Aberdare Library)

AG. The gist of the Rorke’s Drift story was well known to soldiers of Chelmsford’s returning column within hours following the battle and to the rest of the army in South Africa during the following days.

Mr Rees. In the Autumn of 1879, Queen Victoria asked Lady Butler to depict a scene from a war of her reign. Lady Butler liked to use 'models' who were actual participants in the conflicts of her paintings. She gained access to many of the main heroes in the action at RD, and the returning soldiers also played out a re-enactment of the battle for her. My great-grandfather was a model for the painting. I say this because later news reports of his meeting with King Edward V11 and Lady Butler's husband state this ... as does his obituary of August 1912. I quote, 'When the late King and Queen visited Swansea, General Butler singled him out at the dockside in this connection and introduced him to the Monarch who expressed his pleasure at the introduction, and later on, the General personally saw him at the Hotel Metropole and conveyed his wife's regards. Years ago, Lady Butler, by the way, sent Mr. Jenkins a letter of appreciation for his sitting for the painting'. (South Wales Daily Post and Herald of Wales August 1912)

AG. ‘Liking to use models who were actual participants in the conflicts’ is not evidence that the soldier who actually modelled for the painting was at Rorke’s Drift. The family details are irrelevant; no one doubts Pte David Jenkins was in the 24th in Zululand, so of course he had the medal.

 Mr Rees. Preliminary sketches for the painting can be seen in a wide variety of books, but more topically The National Army Museum's Greatest Battles website features a sketch of a soldier kneeling with the name ‘Jenkins’ written above it. The picture is of a living soldier named ‘Jenkins’, not an idealised portrait of a dead one. Included in the drawing are additional sketches of the hand positions on the rifle in preparation for the main portrait. I am aware of only one soldier named Jenkins who claimed to be in the painting.

AG. Two points….

 1. Pte David Jenkins could have volunteered as the model for the dead man for any one of a number of reasons, it would certainly have been a soft and appropriate duty for a soldier suffering from a sexual disease. Being a model for a painting is not evidence that the model participated in the action. Indeed, art critic, Oliver Millar wrote when describing the key to the figures... One of these is inscribed ‘Jenkins’ by the artist but no soldier of this name is recorded as having been at the action.

 2. In the National Army Museum’s weighty tome ‘Ashes and Blood - The British Army in South Africa 1795-1914’ they have a section about Pte Jenkins and the Lady Butler painting, which negates Mr Rees’ above comment that ‘The picture is of a living soldier named ‘Jenkins’, not an idealised portrait of a dead one’. I quote… The drawings on this page are preliminary studies for the kneeling figure at the bottom left-hand corner of the completed canvas. They depict a soldier crouching to take aim, his bayonet scabbard bent underneath him, inscribed top right ‘Jenkins’ with two details of his hands holding a Martini-Henry rifle and squeezing the trigger. It is thought that the main figure could be either Robert (1857-98) or William Jones (1840-1913, both of whom won the Victoria Cross for gallantry at Rorke’s Drift. The only man named Jenkins present at the engagement was Pte M Jenkins whose death was witnessed by William Jones*. * See Boydon, Guy and Harding. Ashes and Blood - The British Army in South Africa 1795-1914 , National Army Museum, 1999. (p. 234)

Mr Rees. Several writers on RD such as James Bancroft ('The Rorke's Drift Men'), Lieutenant Colonel Mike Snook ('Like Wolves on the Fold' and Kris Wheatley (author of the Legacy series on the lesser known men at RD and a descendant of a RD soldier) have backed David's claim to be a Rorke's Drift Defender as well as his own regimental museum, of course, and now ... The National Army Museum.

AG. a. Pte David Jenkins never claimed to be a Rorke’s Drift defender.

b. Mr Rees states that the NAM supports his claim but I understand that it has now backed away from this story, and was not responsible for the recent publicity in the national press. I don’t know that anyone of the above has categorically supported Mr Rees’ claim. Staff at Brecon give this story a cautionary 80% possibility based on what they believe, which sounds fair to me as circumstantial evidence in the absence of any actual evidence. In our view, 80% is the starting point, not the finishing point for this research.

c. Col Snook’s 2006 ‘Like Wolves…’ omits Pte D. Jenkins and in any event, the book is unreferenced which precludes any check on his account.

d. Kris Wheatley appears to have dropped Pte D. Jenkins from her work.

e. In the findings of numerous Zulu War researchers over many years I have found no reference to Pte David Jenkins being at either Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, or anywhere else; John Young’s detailed ‘They Fell Like Stones’ follows suite, as does all of Ian Knight’s extensive and detailed research. Furthermore, there are a great number of letters home from participants; none make any reference to him. Much is being made of a ledger at Brecon’s 24th Regimental Museum containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift, including Pte David Jenkins. This ledger was referred to by Welsh historian and researcher, the then Archivist at Caernarfon Castle, Norman Holme, author of The Noble 24th, as having formed part of his book’s research material – yet Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins in any of his research, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time. We wonder if Norman Holme was referring to Pte David Jenkins when he wrote the following in his The Noble 24th … Many soldiers claimed to have been at Rorke’s Drift, or stated that they had been one of the garrison at that place. Throughout the 1930s and 1940s the pages of the Regimental journal of the South Wales Borderers contain many references to such men, usually in conjunction with their attendance at the funeral of a former comrade.

By 1978, Norman Holme had collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand and had a number of his collations printed under the title Medal Rolls of the 24th Foot; Adrian Greaves owns one of the first such editions which Norman Holme originally sent to his friend, Frank Emery (The Red Soldier).

Over the years that followed, Norman Holme continued his research for his following works, The Silver Wreath and The Noble 24th with the full support of the incumbent 24th Regimental Museum curators, and latterly Maj. Everett, who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’. Over a period of more than twenty years, between 1978 and the publication of The Noble 24th in 1999, neither Norman Holme, nor his many researchers, found any reference to Pte David Jenkins.

It is Brecon museum staff’s hypothesis that the entry in question was written as a Depot diary, not a ledger. They believe the diary/ledger was overlooked by researchers due to its title, and that, somehow, Norman Holme and all other researchers saw it as a record of the 2/24th in the Napoleonic period, without noticing the second line and the dates of the 1/24th records, furthermore, they suggest anyone doing research into the AZW could easily be forgiven for missing the second title and not be aware of its existence.

 Its title is….

 Records of the 2/24th 1804-1813

Records of the 1/24th 1689-1905

In Brecon museum staff’s opinion, it is difficult to say who wrote the entry in the diary without a full investigation of the handwriting of various ‘potentials’. It is their opinion that the diary consolidated ‘various records’ held in the Depot. Someone clearly used a book that had space after the 2/24th entries (some 35 pages), to write (initially) a ‘catch up on the records’ of the 1/24th and subsequent officers have added to it, possibly a Depot Commandant or Depot Adjutant. There are about a hundred pages of considerable detail, written in different handwriting (which you would expect allowing for the length of the period). It is Brecon museum staff’s opinion that the entry in question looks like the work of Lieutenant George K Moore, an adjutant of the 1st Bn SWB and a participant in the 1879 conflict, not of Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, but who took part in the march against Ulundi. The fact that he uses the SWB title points to the diary having been compiled following the formation of the South Wales Borderers in July 1881. To be fair to Lt. Moore, perhaps he based his entry on what he had seen written about David Jenkins when he sat for Lady Butler, and presumed he was the ‘Rorke’s Drift Jenkins’.

A Society member, and a serving army major, has been given sight of the Brecon museum ledger/diary to clarify the relevance of this document. Their report makes the following observations;

An insert for 14 Apr 1879 was present on the pages, which was out of sync. This implies that the details were added to this ledger in an order that linked specific events rather than a strict chronological order and that all entries were added retrospectively of the events. This is also supported by the signature by Lt G K Moore, which ends in 'SWB', clearly indicating he signed these entries off, at the earliest in 1881, or sometime after the 1st Bn became the SWB.

 The ledger appears to be a compilation of events, possibly pulled together by Adjutants several years after the events using unknown documents rather than an Orderly Book or Daily Diary. The name of Pte D. Jenkins is present but this could be an inaccurate record and shows no reference to the original nominal rolls.

The ledger is not 100% credible as a record of events as it was compiled years later, as indicated by the SWB mention in the signature.

The museum staff remain content that there is an 80% possibility Pte D Jenkins had an active role as an RD Defender based on this ledger, his Bible and the fact that Pte D Jenkins had attended various reunions of the events without being questioned by fellow soldiers.

 AG. 1. I accept this assessment as a very fair observation. I also totally accept the Brecon ledger/diary itself is 100% genuine. However, I agree with the observation … ‘The ledger is not 100% credible as a record of events as it was compiled years later, as indicated by the SWB mention in the signature’.

2. As Pte David Jenkins never claimed to be a Rorke’s Drift defender, why would anyone attending a reunion need to challenge him?

3. Had he been a Rorke’s Drift defender, might he at some point have asked for his name to be included on a ledger or roll?

The diary was donated to the Museum in 1950 by the family of an ex 24th officer. We have been requested by the regimental curator not to publish photographs of the diary/ledger.

 In the same vein of records referring to Pte David Jenkins being out of sync, the 1/24th Record of Services lists the following as having been present at the Drift, but the words… ‘had been sent’ were written by C/Sgt Edwards before he was killed at Isandlwana. He could not possibly have been referring to who was at Rorke’s Drift later on the 22nd… Sgt Wilson, Ptes Payton, Desmond, Jenkins and Roy had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col Sgt Edwards. If proof was required that this Edwards entry was out of sync, it certainly predates the battle as Roy was in the hospital at RD during the battle - he got the DCM. Since the other Jenkins (James, the one killed) was also 1st Battalion, Edwards could easily have been referring to him rather than David Jenkins, so in fact that reference doesn't confirm in any way that there were more than one Jenkins at RD.

 Moving on, it is accepted that Pte David Jenkins returned to the UK in possession of a ‘Rorke’s Drift Bible’ copies of which were given to all of B Company by the ladies of Durban.

 It is already known that these Bibles were put in B Company’s kit bags at the docks before the troops embarked from Durban. This is confirmed by no less than Pte John Williams VC who wrote…. When B Company boarded ship that very same day, each man had in his kit bag a Bible, which they would treasure for the remainder of their lives. Presented by the ladies of Durban, a philanthropic group, each signed by a ‘Miss Wilkinson’.

(1) If Pte John Williams VC is to be believed, there is no mention by him, or anyone else, of the Bibles going only to Rorke’s Drift men. Therefore, Pte David Jenkins’ name in his Bible cannot be evidence of his participation in the action. The contemporary press in South Arfica has many accounts of presentations and events for 24th men returning to Pietermaritzburg and Durban – none mention Bibles. With regard to the Mayoral Address, copies were presented to ‘The Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men of the 2nd Battalion of H.M. 24th Regiment’ ; this distribution also went beyond the Rorke’s Drift defenders and possession of a Mayoral Address cannot, on its own, be considered proof that a recipient was actually there. For example, one copy went to Pte. 25B/953 Frederick Evans, who we know was not at Rorke’s Drift As you can guess, Norman Holme’s and Julian Whybra’s views (JW’s England’s Sons) of suspect Rorke’s Drift claimants are re-emerging strongly again. Norman Holme logged all the 1879 records over many years and in 1998 wrote, Undoubtedly a number of veterans encouraged the belief [that they were at Rorke’s Drift] possibly to increase their standing within the community, or with members of their family. Unfortunately, such spurious claims are now firmly embedded in family folklore.

 (2) Likewise, in his section headed Letters from South Africa, (Zulu and Basuto Wars Complete medal Roll 1877-8-9) researcher Roy Dutton wrote…. Editors of newspapers were not very accurate in their printing of soldiers’ letters…they quite often mixed up similar sounding names and also managed to print accounts of some soldiers, who had never been present at Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift. It is important to corroborate such material against other historical sources. The biographer of John Williams VC, W. G. Lloyd, wrote in his seminal work… Some men said they were at Rorke’s Drift but in fact they had never been to South Africa. Some had been at the small mission station with either the middle column or prior to the second invasion of Zululand, but failed to mention that they were not actually at the legendary rearguard action. And some were to impersonate John Williams VC. On at least three occasions known to the author, deceitful attempts to take advantage of his fame occurred.

 (3) We agree whole heartedly. See also, the accompanying Journal article about yet another recently uncovered ‘false claimant’, Pte George Langridge, who, according to his local newspaper, was given ‘a hero’s 21 gun salute’ at his funeral by the SWB. Woops! So, what is the answer in Pte. David Jenkins’ case? Sadly we have not yet seen any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift. Most of all, we cannot even find a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there. As anyone can see from his records, he was constantly in trouble with the authorities and had a distasteful disciplinary record as well as suffering ‘the jolly rant’ or syphilis (as did many soldiers of that period). He was undoubtedly a ‘regimental character’. This, to us, is a peculiar situation; a man who never claimed to have been at Rorke’s Drift is now being credited with having been there. With all the publicity, and welcome ‘hype’ for the Brecon museum, (not our interpretation) there is the possibility that, if left unchallenged, a belief will grow, and the story that Pte David Jenkins was at Rorke’s Drift as a defender will become ‘fact’- that is the power of myth turning into belief. As David Rattray frequently said when addressing selected audiences and speaking of ‘Welsh soldiers marching into Zululand singing ‘Men of Harlech’ – ‘why spoil a good story’?

With such willingness to make Pte David Jenkins a Rorke’s Drift defender, then what about other cases, for example, Sgt Cooper 1st 24th who is on the rolls of Isandlwana casualties. His family’s belief, in parallel with Jenkin’s family, is that Cooper was killed at Rorke’s Drift, a belief that is supported by his memorial service papers and a personal letter to his next of kin from the then CO of the 1st 24th at Helpmakaar Major Upcher, commanding Rorke’s Drift, confirming Sgt Cooper’s death on the 22nd January. This letter is, according to Brecon museum staff, unique; no similar letter is known to the museum.

(4) This supporting documentary evidence puts Cooper in close proximity to RD at the relevant time. However, despite this evidence, there is little compelling or substantiated evidence putting him specifically at Rorke’s Drift. Consequently, Sgt Cooper’s case is not probable but possible - nevertheless, there is more evidence to support Sgt Cooper’s case than Pte David Jenkins whose case is neither probable or possible. Finally, as a former detective of many years, let Adrian Greaves ask the reader to test the following imaginary scenario. For just a moment, let us turn the story on its head and retrospectively pretend that, because of the killing of several hundred Zulu wounded after the engagement, it was a crime to have been a Rorke’s Drift defender. Let us now put Pte David Jenkins on trial to face the charge. How could he possibly be found guilty on the ‘evidence’ currently being put forward to put him at Rorke’s Drift when the only line of evidence comes from the press of the day, which would clear him of the charge… that amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….who had been to the rear with prisoners. I submit the case against him would have to be dismissed on the strength of this line alone, especially when it is further supported by C/Sgt Edwards’ statement above, leaving no evidence that puts Pte David Jenkins anywhere near Rorke’s Drift at the material date/time. Therefore, why suggest the same lack of evidence proves he was present? If this scenario cannot pass such a test, there is no test to pass.

We believe Pte David Jenkins case should, therefore, be treated with caution until his Service Record, or any genuine contemporary record, or mention in another participant’s letter confirms his role as a ‘defender’; we would then willingly accept that the matter is beyond any question and we could then support the claim of Brecon museum staff and Mr Rees.

The above is our personal opinion. Let’s see what pops up.

 Dr Adrian Greaves, AZWHS. Author Rorke’s Drift Cassell 2002.

 Dr David Payne, AZWRS. Author Harford Ultimatum Tree Press 2008.

 References.

1. Lloyd, W.G. John Williams VC Three Arch Press, 1993.

 2. Holme, Norman. The Noble 24th Savannah Publications 1999. We accept he did not mention Frederick Herbert Brown either, but there is other evidence he was there.

3. Lloyd, W.G. John Williams VC Three Arch Press, 1993.

4. The original Upcher letter is in Adrian Greaves’ personal collection, Sgt Cooper’s medal is owned by an anonymous collector. See AZWHS Journal 21 for further details

. Post Script.

a. Numerous Society members, and the press, have asked about the value of such this soldier’s medal. A South Africa campaign medal to a non-combatant 24th soldier could fetch £900. A Rorke’s Drift defender’s medal would currently attract offers of £35,000 or more.

 b. I was surprised to see that Capt. Greaves, 2nd Bn 3rd Regiment NNC * , is mentioned in the same Brecon diary entry as Pte David Jenkins. According to this Brecon diary, Capt Greaves accompanied Capt Harford when the bodies of Coghill and Melvill were found. Being a very distant relative, I am aware Capt. Greaves’ arrived at Rorke’s Drift early on the 23rd January to help strengthen the position. The Brecon diary entry, of which I was totally unaware, supports the hypothesis that, I too, could have a family member who was significantly connected to Rorke’s Drift, albeit post engagement! As Capt Greaves was seemingly accompanying Capt Harford and Lt Hillier when they found Coghill and Melvill, perhaps he was one of those who also found Sgt Cooper’s body, now there’s a theory to go with my Upcher letter! The hypothesis that there were two soldiers bodies alongside Coghill and Melvill is based upon a contemporary account by Lt. Hillier **, and supported by a handwritten entry by Capt. Harford in his presentation copy of In Zululand with the British by Norris-Newman, presented to him in 1880 by the author, that the bodies found totalled ‘4’. This particular edition, formally owned and annotated throughout by Harford, is in my collection.

Dr Adrian Greaves * Referenced in a. Laband and Thompson. The Buffalo Border 1879 University of Natal, 1983 and b. Smith, Keith, L. Local General Orders Relating to the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. D.P. & G Publishers, 2005. ** Telegraph and Eastern Province Standard, 28 February 1879.

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 10:44 pm

Quote :
If Pte John Williams VC is to be believed, there is no mention by him, or anyone else, of the Bibles going only to Rorke’s Drift men. Therefore, Pte David Jenkins’ name in his Bible cannot be evidence of his participation in the action. The contemporary press in South Arfica has many accounts of presentations and events for 24th men returning to Pietermaritzburg and Durban – none mention Bibles
.
Well there’s a very plausible answer to the Bible issue?

In view of the overwhelming evidence in David post, it is now evident that doubt has been cast over David Jenkins presence at Rorke’s Drift.
The fact that primary source accounts fail to show David Jenkins being at either Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift and the fact that those who believe he was there has now backed off certainly casts doubt.
It’s apparent that Major Martin Everett has jumped the gun; his only evidence for adding David Jenkins to the roll was the Bible. Perhaps he should start researching on how to undo a Re-dedication?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 11:42 pm

I thought it was odd, that someone would write to there father claming to have survived Isandlwana and ended up in the Battle of Rorkes Drift. His letter clearly indicates that he saw the Battle of Isandlwana near enough to the end. Other accounts from others that escaped nearly all go into detail on their journey from Isandlwana, David Jenkins nothing. There was no mention of any of the 1st. 24th coming in to RD with other survivors. And how did he get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly?. My guest is like others who claimed to have taken part, he heard stories from those who were really there.

Totally agree with Impi, David's post has cast to much doubt over David Jenkins being at Rorkes Drift.

A somewhat embrassing situation for those, who thought they had the right to add Jenkins to the roll of defenders based on Sketches and a Bible. The two values of the medal should be given some serious consideration. Would be a good idea for NAM to retract their involvement in connection with the sketches of David Jenkins in the Butler painting.

It appears Mr Rees was led up the garden path, he took what evidence he had to those he thought would know about confirmation of defenders. And on handing over the Bible he was told David Jenkins must have be at Rorkes Drift otherwise he would not have received a bible.

Perhaps those who thought it was okay to add David to the roll, should have carried out extensive research before concluding on such an important matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 11:54 pm

Quote :
" Moving on, it is accepted that Pte David Jenkins returned to the UK in possession of a ‘Rorke’s Drift Bible’ copies of which were given to all of B Company by the ladies of Durban.

 It is already known that these Bibles were put in B Company’s kit bags at the docks before the troops embarked from Durban. This is confirmed by no less than Pte John Williams VC who wrote…. When B Company boarded ship that very same day, each man had in his kit bag a Bible, which they would treasure for the remainder of their lives. Presented by the ladies of Durban, a philanthropic group, each signed by a ‘Miss Wilkinson’."

So who would have entered their names into the Bibles.?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed May 29, 2013 11:59 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Re 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins

In a letter home (in Welsh) dated 28th January 1879 published in The Merthyr Express, 22nd March 1879 and in Welsh in Y Gwladgarwr, 28th March 1879 this 1/24th G coy soldier claimed that he was “one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies” from Isandhlwana. There is no evidence to support that he was at Isandhlwana – G coy was stationed at Helpmekaar at the time - and the letter may refer simply to the 1/24th men at the Drift having escaped the massacre at the camp by dint of being at the Drift.
The letter does indicate his possible presence at Rorke’s Drift. The Times (October 1879), on his return home, records his presence there, he was in possession
of a Rorke’s Drift Ladies’ Testimonial Fund Bible (inscribed on the flyleaf), and he is also recorded in the 1/24th Record of Services as having been present at the Drift. Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col.
Sergt. Wm. Edwards (kia Isandhlwana). The bible, Record and letter are all in the RRW Museum. En route back to the Column Roy was admitted to hospital at Rorke’s Drift. Lady Butler sketched (and named) Jenkins in 1880 as a study for her painting of the defence. He was also introduced to King Edward VII as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post, 20th July 1904; Herald of Wales, 23rd July 1904). His inclusion among the defenders solves the riddle of others having seen ‘Jenkins’ both in the hospital and on the wall (confusing this man with 25B/841 Pte. Jas. Jenkins, kia Rorke’s Drift).

I have seen all the information above myself over an extended period.

What is this record of services?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 12:03 am

[quote="Ulundi"]
Julian Whybra wrote:
Re 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins

In a letter home (in Welsh) dated 28th January 1879 published in The Merthyr Express, 22nd March 1879 and in Welsh in Y Gwladgarwr, 28th March 1879 this 1/24th G coy soldier claimed that he was “one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies” from Isandhlwana. There is no evidence to support that he was at Isandhlwana – G coy was stationed at Helpmekaar at the time - and the letter may refer simply to the 1/24th men at the Drift having escaped the massacre at the camp by dint of being at the Drift.
The letter does indicate his possible presence at Rorke’s Drift. The Times (October 1879), on his return home, records his presence there, he was in possession
of a Rorke’s Drift Ladies’ Testimonial Fund Bible (inscribed on the flyleaf), and he is also recorded in the 1/24th Record of Services as having been present at the Drift Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col.
Sergt. Wm. Edwards (kia Isandhlwana). The bible, Record and letter are all in the RRW Museum. En route back to the Column Roy was admitted to hospital at Rorke’s Drift. Lady Butler sketched (and named) Jenkins in 1880 as a study for her painting of the defence. He was also introduced to King Edward VII as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post, 20th July 1904; Herald of Wales, 23rd July 1904). His inclusion among the defenders solves the riddle of others having seen ‘Jenkins’ both in the hospital and on the wall (confusing this man with 25B/841 Pte. Jas. Jenkins, kia Rorke’s Drift).

I have seen all the information above myself over an extended period.


Must have been wearing Beer Goggles! Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 12:33 am

littlehand wrote:
Quote :
Where is this Bible, no one to my knowledge has seen it... Its no good saying they have seen it, an image will need to be posted


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The only pitfall I can see with regards to all of B Company receiving a bible, is it says on the fly sheet.

"Rorke's Drift Testimonial Fund"
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 7:34 am

I think that to many forum members are far to quick to jump to conclusions. Whilst Davids and Adrians essay does raise questions it also poses questions.
One ive mentioned, the casual dismissal of Jenkins being in two places at once. There are others, read the article and compare back with known accounts.
The bible is a side issue, again David has taken a comment:" every member of B company left the quay with a bible." to translate it into:" the ladies inserted a bible into all the kitbags." Thats a huge jump. One, Im certain the kitbags would have been trussed up by the owners and Two the good ladies would have had there nostrils assailed by the smell of rotting socks etc.
The key issues here are the events around RD not the Durban Docks or an artists easle in England.
The essay glosses over evidence for to put forwood evidence against.

In an interview just before he died, 'Cape Times' George Mabin waved around a copy of a Natal newspaper and said: There are those that say they were there, these( refering to the list in the paper) were there. I dont see that particular piece of research or reference to that list?

Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 8:52 am

Quote :
"In an interview just before he died, 'Cape Times' George Mabin waved around a copy of a Natal newspaper and said: There are those that say they were there, these( refering to the list in the paper) were there. I dont see that particular piece of research or reference to that list?"

You show it to us Springbok.


The essay glosses over evidence for to put forwood evidence against.
What an Earth are you talking about. Have you check and confirmed the evidence submitted. It's there in black and white. If you don't agree with it , then produce something that shows otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 9:06 am

impi
Unfortunatly you want every thing served up to you on a plate so you can cast judgement. Do your research, think for yourself instead of relying on others to think for you.
My arguments are posted, twice in this string, read them, then think about the Kennedy magic bullet theory, Davids treatment of the Jenkins in hospital and Jenkins on the firing line equates to that.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 9:56 am

It's been done. You need to study mo David's post You are casting doubt on primary source material. It's not good enough to say, it's glossing over. If you doubt David's post then show the evidence using primary source accounts.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 10:26 am

Impi
Read the posts, I have quoted source material thats been ignored.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Thu May 30, 2013 11:24 am

I's rather odd that the statement says that the bibles were given to all of 'B' company, there were also other defenders there that were from other companies of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, ie; 'A', 'C', 'D', 'E' 'F', 'G', and 'H' company, did these defenders not get a bible as well I wonder?. And if both Wilson and Roy were also supposed to be with the prisoner escort party that David Jenkins was with, how come they were both at RD, they can't be in two places at the same time can they?

There is something not adding up about all this, the Jenkins that was killed in the hospital at RD was James Jenkins (25B/841), there was also another Jenkins (1083), that was killed at iSandlwana, and it was thought that earlier researchers had got David Jenkins mixed up with this man, I also find it odd that on the roll on the RDVC site there is no Pte David Jenkins (295) listed? It seems that more research is needed regarding David Jenkins before 'jumping the gun'.

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 11:49 am

Martin
1083 WatkinJenkins was listed on the 3rd February as being 'the other Jenkins' at RD. But listed as killed at iSandlwana, along with 1767 William Jenkins.
All part of the Enigma

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 11:52 am

Quote :
In an interview just before he died, 'Cape Times' George Mabin waved around a copy of a Natal newspaper and said: There are those that say they were there, these( refering to the list in the paper) were there. I dont see that particular piece of research or reference to that list?
Where is this source.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Thu May 30, 2013 12:39 pm

"All part of the Enigma"

How right you are springy mate.

I mentioned in an earlier post about the confusion that can happen when men have the same surnames. I think for a time there was some confusion about a 'Sgt Cooper' who was believed to have being killed at RD (I think this is the same man that is related to Ian Knight), however, it appears that he was killed at iSandlwana. There were also two other 'Coopers' killed at iSandlwana, one being called William, this confused me for a while when I was trying to research 'William Cooper' who was a defender at RD. I found a newspaper saying that he was in 'F' company at iSandlwana, I at first wondered if he could possibly have fought at both battles, however, doing a little more research, I found that yes, he was in 'F' company and was at iSandlwana, but had been sent back to RD prior to the battle for some stores of some kind, this proved to be lucky for William Cooper, and he also survived RD.

So it just shows how easy it is to get people with the same surname mixed up with one another.

That is still a bit of a puzzle though, if Wilson and Roy were with the prisoner escort party that David Jenkins was also with, how is it they are both shown as being at RD?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 1:45 pm

Martin
The comments about the party being:"sent to the rear." Came from C/ Sgt Edwards. ( KIA Isandlwana) The 'rear' is a pretty nebulous term really, if the comment was made at Helpmakaar it could refer to PMB, if made at PMB it could relate to Durban. So if it was made at iSandlwana surely it could mean RD, not so? Seeing as all the men in that party were at RD during the battle, its not a huge leap of connection to assume that Jenkins was there as well.
Its an issue thats been glossed over in Davids account.

David seems to discard issues at will, Reynolds, Smith Chard etc and then look no further during his various theories. An example, the letter sent by David Jenkins, supposedly from PMB. The comment being that he couldnt get to PMB in that time.
Chelmsford did. Did he have an escort? Do we know who was in it? Did any of that party carry letters or correspondence from the troops?

The issue of David jenkins attending re unions is another issue thats dismissed. Why would he be at a RD suvivors re union, surely comment would be made! Would he be welcomed? Would he be introduced as a suvivor and not be exposed as a charlaton.

There are many many questions in Davids / Adrians essay. They need in turn to be questioned and not accepted cart blanche without being tested, just as they have tested the original statements.

Do we just accept because various forum members are not prepared to look through it analitically? Or more to the point because it seeks to discredit the statements made by Julian Whybra ( That I think is more to the point ).

Chard
I have the paper the quote was in. Cant figure out why you ask me that and not ask David for sources on various unatributed points he has made?

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu May 30, 2013 4:27 pm

Quote :
Do we just accept because various forum members are not prepared to look through it analitically? Or more to the point because it seeks to discredit the statements made by Julian Whybra ( That I think is more to the point ).

That's not what its about. David as posted an article, that shows evidence regarding David Jenkins not being at RD.

I really can't understand why some members find it necessary to rally around Julian Whybra.

I'm sure Julian will reply in his own time.

Quote :
We believe Pte David Jenkins case should, therefore, be treated with caution until his Service Record, or any genuine contemporary record, or mention in another participant’s letter confirms his role as a ‘defender’; we would then willingly accept that the matter is beyond any question and we could then support the claim of Brecon museum staff and Mr Rees.

This would certainly clear up the situation.
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