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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorkes Drift roll of defenders
Yes
49%
 49% [ 23 ]
No
4%
 4% [ 2 ]
More research should have been done
45%
 45% [ 21 ]
It was all a publicly stunt
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Doesn't really matter
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 47
 

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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:03 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
impi.

Well there must have been some sort of arbitration and agreement, as it took over 4 years (2010), before David Jenkins received the headstone.

Martin, have you found anything of this nature?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:12 pm

Mr Greaves.

That is what I am searching for at the moment, if I find anything I will post it.

But something must have been discussed and agreed with the regiment during those 4 years.

Like impi says, Bill might be able to throw some light on this.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:12 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
impi.

It might interest you to know that Lt Col Mike Snook told Major Martin Everett that he was, quote; "Completely won over" about all this back in April 2006.

Ian Knight writer and historian who is internationally regarded as a leading authority on the nineteenth-century history of the Zulu kingdom, and in particular the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879.

Quote :
"I'm afraid your conclusions are a little premature. There is a good circumstantial case to be made that Pte Jenkins was at Rorke's Drift, but in fact his presence is not confirmed by any official account from the time, and some aspects of his case are open to debate. Ultimately, in the absence of anything definitive one way or the other, the verdict on whether he was there or not is always likely to remain open".

Ian Knight

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:15 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
impi.

Well there must have been some sort of arbitration and agreement, as it took over 4 years (2010), before David Jenkins received the headstone.

I'm sure Ian Knight would not have said the above, if there had been some sort of arbitration and agreement.
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:44 pm

That is a very interesting observation by Ian Knight. He does say that "There is a good circumstantial case to be made that Pte Jenkins was at Rorke's Drift", so it seems that Ian can see the case for Pte Jenkins, but maybe he is doing his own research on this before committing himself either way.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:03 pm

There Probaly is a good case for David being at RD. but let's make it offical. Let the case go to arbitration, the decision will then be final...

Let the descendant regiment, decide.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:15 pm

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Looking at all the other redications on the forum, it's odd how David Jenkins redication dosen't have anyone representing the regiment. Just appears to be very low key.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:32 pm

24th wrote:
http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t2223-25b-295-pte-david-jenkins-re-dedication

Looking at all the other redications on the forum, it's odd how David Jenkins redication dosen't have anyone representing the regiment. Just appears to be very low key.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:22 am

Thanks Pete.


68% saying more research should have been done. Early days yet!! agree

 

 
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:25 am

Hi 24th. According to the Breconshire and Local Family History website:

"On March 28th, 2010, a rededication ceremony was held at David's grave in Cwmgelli Cemetery, Treboeth, Swansea. Six regiments were represented and the ceremony was conducted by the regimental pardre from Brecon. Over one humdred friends and descendants attended."

Sorry, I am not allowed to post links yet.
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:00 am

Hi everyone

This debate seems to be going round and round with contributors getting more and more entrenched.

I will repeat the Museum's position (which has not changed): The question of whether David Jenkins was/was not at Rorke's Drift was thoroughly investigated by the Museum staff some eight years ago, (see Kenny's posts). On the basis of the available evidence, the conclusion was that David Jenkins was PROBABLY there. On that basis his name was added to the list of defenders shown on the Museum's web site. This list is of those the Museum staff believed to have been present at the battle. We do not believe that any subsequent evidence has been produced that would make us doubt that decision. There is NO official roll, so the debate has been why David Jenkins does not appear on other rolls eg Chard's roll. I believe these queries have all been satisfactorily explained. The original rolls listed some 139 defenders and this figure has been used in many subsequent presentations both in the press and on TV - the actual number of known defenders is now over 150 (see Julian Whybra's "England Sons" for the detail). We in the Museum have great respect for Julian's research, but of course we have to be convinced in our own minds before we would consider adding a name to the Museum's list.

I consider it most unlikely that there will be a Board of Enquiry as the question of who would fund such an (expensive) event would need to be addressed. So, at the end of the day, it will come down to what you believe - was he there or not ? We in the Museum believe he probably was.

I'm not sure what the separate thread, inviting people to vote, will achieve.

As I've said before I would welcome any "doubters" to the Museum to see for themselves the primary sources (eg the 1/24th record of service/ledger/diary) and allow them to make their own minds up. Impi's implication that he wouldn't "waste his time" in so doing is a sad reflection on the use of primary sources in conducting research.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:20 am

Knight’s comment is undated but comes I think from 2006…! The position has changed since then to the absorption of a larger body of positive evidence. Salute
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:31 am

Well said Bill.

It is so obvious that David Jenkins was at RD, the problem arises from a mistake made with his number.

If people like Juilian and Kris, Lt Col Mike Snook and Major Martin Everett, and of course your good self can see the obvious, then I cannot understand why others cannot accept that judgement.

David Jenkins was on the Chard roll all the time, it's his number that was wrong.

Martin.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:56 am

Well said Martin Salute
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:33 pm

Has Adrian Greaves and David Payne seen the ledger!!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:37 pm

Live ES In its latest edition Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:22 pm

Hi 24th

If you look at the article you will see that we had a serving Army Major go in to Brecon, on our behalf, and the report is included.

At the request of the museum we could not reproduce a copy of the diary/ledger in the article.

Hi All

For those of you who are AZWHS members if you look in the latest journal that went on line at the beginning of the month you will see Ian Knight's latest on David Jenkins.

Regards

David
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:35 pm

AZWHS scratch
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90th

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PostSubject: David Jenkins Forgotten survivor of RD .   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Rascal the AZWHS is the Anglo Zulu War Historical society . Here is the link .

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:16 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Well said Bill.

It is so obvious that David Jenkins was at RD, the problem arises from a mistake made with his number.

If people like Juilian and Kris, Lt Col Mike Snook and Major Martin Everett, and of course your good self can see the obvious, then I cannot understand why others cannot accept that judgement.

David Jenkins was on the Chard roll all the time, it's his number that was wrong.

Martin.

Thanks Mr Cooper, I can see it perfectly clearly now.
Combined with everything else, the Jenkins at the wall etc who shouted the warning to Chard, the evidence of David Jenkins' involvement at Rorke's Drift has in fact been staring us blatantly in the face for the past 134 years!
He is one of the 2 Jenkins' listed on the original Chard Roll, the one that was compiled the earliest after the battle of Rorkes Drift. Clearly, the Jenkins who was killed at Isandhlwana was not at RD - so Chard/Cantwell got his number and initial wrong!
OK! I've got it!
Thanks again Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:47 pm

Quote :
At the request of the museum we could not reproduce a copy of the diary/ledger in the article
I wonder why?
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:59 pm

bill cainan wrote:
Hi everyone

This debate seems to be going round and round with contributors getting more and more entrenched.

I will repeat the Museum's position (which has not changed): The question of whether David Jenkins was/was not at Rorke's Drift was thoroughly investigated by the Museum staff some eight years ago, (see Kenny's posts). On the basis of the available evidence, the conclusion was that David Jenkins was PROBABLY there. On that basis his name was added to the list of defenders shown on the Museum's web site. This list is of those the Museum staff believed to have been present at the battle. We do not believe that any subsequent evidence has been produced that would make us doubt that decision. There is NO official roll, so the debate has been why David Jenkins does not appear on other rolls eg Chard's roll. I believe these queries have all been satisfactorily explained. The original rolls listed some 139 defenders and this figure has been used in many subsequent presentations both in the press and on TV - the actual number of known defenders is now over 150 (see Julian Whybra's "England Sons" for the detail). We in the Museum have great respect for Julian's research, but of course we have to be convinced in our own minds before we would consider adding a name to the Museum's list.

I consider it most unlikely that there will be a Board of Enquiry as the question of who would fund such an (expensive) event would need to be addressed. So, at the end of the day, it will come down to what you believe - was he there or not ? We in the Museum believe he probably was.

I'm not sure what the separate thread, inviting people to vote, will achieve.

As I've said before I would welcome any "doubters" to the Museum to see for themselves the primary sources (eg the 1/24th record of service/ledger/diary) and allow them to make their own minds up. Impi's implication that he wouldn't "waste his time" in so doing is a sad reflection on the use of primary sources in conducting research. Bill

Lots of Probabilitys and Believes in there? The fact David Jenkins has been added to the museum roll is really neither here or there. I suppose the more you add, the more Julian book needs up-dating, sales must be good.

Bill. You are more than capable of taking a photograph of the said text in the ledger. Why don't you post an image.

PS. I guess the poll will show, that not everyone is a mug, and taken in. "More research should have been done" looks to be the ledger! Sorry I meant leader!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:21 pm

Quote :
Mr Rees, from Swansea, said: “It’s nice that the history books have finally been corrected to recognise his role.

What History Books woud that be then!

Someone had better advise Mr Ree's that Jenkins name has only been added to the museum roll. Perhaps he misunderstood what was said.

And with all the "Probabilitys and Believes" I take it Julian hasn't added Jenkings to England's son.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:26 pm

Impi

I would rather you did your own primary research and then make up you mind based on that research. It is unfortunate that you feel a visit to Brecon would be a waste of your time, as I'm sure you could learn a lot from viewing what we hold.

You seem to be rather scathing with regard to Julian's work "England's Sons" . Do you own a copy, or have you read it ? I'm sure it would clear up lots of doubts that you might have.

Do you accept the point that I made - that no "official" roll exists ?

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:34 pm

Mr David Payne wrote:
Hi 24th

If you look at the article you will see that we had a serving Army Major go in to Brecon, on our behalf, and the report is included.

At the request of the museum we could not reproduce a copy of the diary/ledger in the article.

Hi All

For those of you who are AZWHS members if you look in the latest journal that went on line at the beginning of the month you will see Ian Knight's latest on David Jenkins.

Regards

David

I can't see what the big secret is. Why can't you post an image and let members decide.


Quote :
Do you accept the point that I made - that no "official" roll exists ?


No for two reason.

One if there was not an official roll, then anyone can be added, as is the case with David Jenkins.

Two. In nearly all the publicity relating to David Jenkins it refers to him being added to the offical roll.

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:50 pm

Bill. For whatever reason the post below as been ignored by members. Why have you or Julian not responded to the questions put forward by David Payne.

David and Adrian are well known for their research. They have posed these questions for a reason. It is an indepth detailed report on their research. The fact that none of you are responding tells me you can't or it proves David Jenkins was not at Isandlwana or Rorkes' Drift.


Quote :
Posted by forum member David Payne.
Author:
Review By : (unknown)
Pte. D. Jenkins, G Company, 1st /24th Was he there – or not? By Dr Adrian Greaves ___________________________________________________________________________ An interesting scenario has arisen over the history of Pte. D. Jenkins, G Company, 1st /24th following recent press interest. As members will appreciate, Dr David Payne of the AZWRS and I have been literally bombarded with queries and observations from our respective Society members, and the media, about this matter. So that we don’t have to prepare a large amount of individual replies, we have put together this Journal article so that our initial thoughts are known to Society members.

 Last year I was forwarded newspaper correspondence from a descendent of Pte Jenkins, Mr Rees. This stated that there had been a re-dedication of his relative’s grave which now showed Pte. D. Jenkins as a ‘Rorke’s Drift defender’. I was initially delighted with the news. As this was new to me, I conducted some research into this. There is a Pte. David Jenkins of G Company who is recorded by the Zulu War researchers, Alan Baynham-Jones and Lee Stevenson, as being a questionable survivor of Isandlwana. This is based upon Pte David Jenkins who wrote a letter home in which he specifically states he survived the battle of Isandlwana.

He wrote.... ‘being only one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies’. I could find no report of this Jenkins listed as an Isandlwana survivor and, equally oddly, Jenkins didn’t mention Rorke’s Drift in this letter.

 The numerous histories, accounts and documents on the subject likewise don’t mention this Jenkins being at either Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift – neither Dr David Payne nor I could find his name on any of the rolls of participants at Rorke’s Drift. The Chard Report merely states that Chard was given a warning by Pte. Jenkins of the 24th - but could Chard have been referring to Pte James Jenkins of the 24th? Pte. James Jenkins appears on the various nominal rolls as a defender at Rorke’s Drift - and he certainly participated in the battle because he was killed towards the end of the fighting. James W Bancroft in his book, The Zulu War, 1879. Rorke's Drift (Spellmount 1988) wrote; Lt Chard would also have been killed if Pte Jenkins had not shouted a warning and pulled his officer's head down just as a Zulu round whizzed over it. Private Jenkins himself was later killed.

 The art expert, Oliver Millar, wrote at length about Lady Butler’s painting, which Mr Rees partly relies on for his claim, on the grounds that Pte David Jenkins was a model for the famous painting. You will find part of Millar’s comment in Journal 15. When describing the key to the figures he makes a comment, one that has never been challenged.... One of these is inscribed ‘Jenkins’ by the artist but no soldier of this name is recorded as having been at the action. (Other than the Jenkins killed).

 It was stated in the newspapers at the time the unit returned home that ‘amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were “a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….who had been to the rear with prisoners’. Jenkins also wrote a letter to his father just days after the battles, dated 26th January, some suggest it was sent on the 28th. The letter is written from Pietermaritzburg, a location well over 100 miles of rough tracks from Rorke’s Drift, which tallies with the above words ‘to the rear’. He was not with the 5 companies of the 1st Battalion present at Isandlwana. In his letter he wrote about the fact that 5 companies, had been slain at Isandlwana, and he was ‘one of only 10 survivors that escaped’. If he had been at Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, how did he get to Pietermaritzburg so quickly?

 The relevant parts of his letter are as follows; Zululand January 26, 1879. Dear Father, Just a few lines to let you know that I am one of the ten men that escaped out of the five companies.

The letter signed off: No 295 David Jenkins 'G' Company, 1-24th Regiment Pietermaritzburg. Natal.

In Norman Holme’s The Silver Wreath you will see that there has always been confusion with regard to ‘who was where’ due to any number of bogus Rorke’s Drift claimants. Bearing in mind all that has been written over the years by well-respected researchers and historians about Rorke’s Drift defenders, I suggested Mr Rees obtained a copy of Jenkins’ Service Record as this should show exactly where he was on which date. My own research to date shows that Jenkins’ records make no mention of Rorke’s Drift or Isandlwana, though this is not in itself conclusive.

Meanwhile, Mr Rees has presented his case to the National Army Museum who contacted both me and Ian Knight. We have both expressed our reservations on the matter, based on the absence of any actual evidence that we are aware of. Apart from the 2nd Battalion medal roll, we have not been able to find any reference to Pte. David Jenkins. So far, we have had checked the following Army records for evidence of whereabouts of this soldier on the 22nd and 23rd January 1879, without success. Casualties – Isandlwana – 22nd January 1879

Casualties Rorke’s Drift 22nd/23rd January 1879

 Nominal Roll Rorke’s Drift – Bourne List – from Regimental Pay Roll for January 1879 Nominal Roll –

 Lt. Chard 3rd February 1879 Nominal Roll –

 Major Dunbar January 1880 Nominal Roll

– not attributed – Cantwell?

Roll of Honour – undated. Illuminated Scroll – In memoriam.

 Men of the 2nd Battalion Who Received a Copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. Various medal rolls of the AZW. (Hart’s List and Dutton’s Zulu and Basuto Wars)

 Local General Orders, South Africa, 1878-79

 Mr Rees’ response to my above observations ‘Was he there – or not?’ (Comments by Mr Rees are indicated by his title, Mr Rees. My own comments commence with my initials AG.) Mr Rees.

 There are two worthy sources which comment on James Edmund Jenkins's death in the hospital. I quote: a) '... the only men actually killed in the hospital were three ... The names were Sergeant Maxfield, Private Jenkins, both unable to assist in their escape, being debilitated by fever, and Private Adams.' (The Report of Surgeon Reynolds - see 'Rorke's Drift' by Dr. Adrian Greaves, p 402) b) 'One poor fellow, Jenkins, venturing through one of these (the holes in the hospital partition walls), was also seized and dragged away ...’ (Reverend George Smith's account).

 AG. All these references only refer to a Pte Jenkins, not Pte David Jenkins. And see Bancroft’s comment above that Jenkins was killed. Gunner Evans RA later wrote that he lost two friends at Rorke’s Drift, Adams and Jenkins of the 24th.

Mr Rees. There are actually two references to the behaviour of an 'active', 'fit' second Jenkins in Chard's Second Report. a) The first (p 373 RD by Dr AG) includes this 'other' Jenkins amongst a group of soldiers who, early in the battle, repelled the attacks of the Zulus with 'great coolness and gallantry'. Remember James Edmund Jenkins was in the hospital in the grips of a fever.

AG. There was only one Jenkins mentioned - James Edmund Jenkins. Sick or not, using a rifle would have been second nature to him. He could easily have left the hospital at various times during the 12 hour engagement. To claim he was ‘in the grips of a fever’ is speculation. Furthermore, Pte David Jenkins was hardly ‘active’ and ‘fit’ – the poor fellow suffered from syphilis – which begs two supplementary questions; 1. What was he doing on the front line, and 2. How did this syphilitic soldier get back to Pietermaritzburg so quickly?

 b) The second refers to an incident a couple of hours into the battle, long after JEJ had been killed and outside the hospital.

 AG. This timing is speculative. We don’t know at which point in the fighting that Jenkins was killed.

Mr Rees. Chard writes, 'While I was intently watching to get a fair shot at a Zulu who appeared to be firing rather well, Jenkins 24th, saying 'Look out, Sir,' gave my head a duck down just as a bullet whizzed over it. He had noticed a Zulu who was quite near in another direction taking a deliberate aim at me. For all the man could have known, the shot might have been directed at himself. I mention these facts to show how well the men behaved and how loyally worked together.' (p375-6 'RD' by Dr AG, and p111 'Zulu' by Ian Knight, an extract highlighted to me by the Royal Engineers TA Group in Swansea). These I believe indicate that 'another' Jenkins was present.

 AG. Like other references from participants, Chard only refers to a Jenkins. With regard to Mr Rees’ ‘belief’; this acknowledges it is open to other interpretations.

 Mr Rees. Soon after the battle David sent a letter home to his father to reassure him that he was still alive.

 The first part of the letter has puzzled many researchers because it appears to suggest that he was one of the fortunate survivors of Isandlwana. However, no trace of his presence there can be found in the regimental archives. Perhaps David realised that the big talking point in England would be of the disaster and casualties at Isandlwana. As he is writing so soon after 22nd January he might not have been able to distinguish between the two separate 'battles' but was rather seeing both as part of one big battle

. AG. This is the most serious defect in Mr Rees’ claim, and the whole story.

 1. I have doubts that anyone who fought on that day could not have been able to differentiate between whether he was at Rorke’s Drift or Isandlwana. If Jenkins had been a Rorke’s Drift defender, I suspect he would have known. No one else saw him at Rorke’s Drift and he is not featured in any of the Nominal Rolls of those present, nor in participants’ letters and accounts of the action. Neither is he recorded as having even been at Isandlwana.

 2. Pte David Jenkins’s G Company, commanded by Captain Thomas Rainforth, was stationed at Helpmekaar. As Jenkins’s letter to his parents was signed off with the location of Pietermaritzberg and G Company 1/24th, he was probably engaged on duty, or under prisoners’ escort (he had a distasteful disciplinary record), somewhere between Helpmakaar and Pietermaritzburg during the 22nd/23rd January, not as is being claimed, surviving Isandlwana or fighting at Rorke’s Drift.

3. Accounts of the fighting would have rapidly become common knowledge throughout the army, emanating from the fugitives departing Rorke's Drift en route to Helpmekaar. I suspect this could be the source that inspired Jenkins’ muddled letter home.

 Mr Rees. In the second half of the letter David asks his father to contact Isaac Lewis, a neighbour in the Brecon area, to tell him of the death of his son-in-law, George Chambers, at Isandlwana and the narrow escape of his son, Bombardier Thomas Lewis, at the Drift. David writes of Thomas's escape from the hospital at RD to the 'fort' (which was a term used by men at the Drift for the 'fortified' area position which the soldiers had fallen back to in the later stages of the battle). His letter, therefore does speak of RD ‘as if he witnessed this young man's rescue and escape’

 AG. This is pure speculation – using words like ‘as if he witnessed’ is hardly evidence.

Mr Rees. 'he came from the hospital to the fort through all the firing'. (The letter appeared in 'The Merthyr Express' in March 1879 and a Welsh Language Newspaper, 'Y Gwladgarwyr' a week later. These newspapers are online at, respectively, Merthyr Central Library and Aberdare Library)

AG. The gist of the Rorke’s Drift story was well known to soldiers of Chelmsford’s returning column within hours following the battle and to the rest of the army in South Africa during the following days.

Mr Rees. In the Autumn of 1879, Queen Victoria asked Lady Butler to depict a scene from a war of her reign. Lady Butler liked to use 'models' who were actual participants in the conflicts of her paintings. She gained access to many of the main heroes in the action at RD, and the returning soldiers also played out a re-enactment of the battle for her. My great-grandfather was a model for the painting. I say this because later news reports of his meeting with King Edward V11 and Lady Butler's husband state this ... as does his obituary of August 1912. I quote, 'When the late King and Queen visited Swansea, General Butler singled him out at the dockside in this connection and introduced him to the Monarch who expressed his pleasure at the introduction, and later on, the General personally saw him at the Hotel Metropole and conveyed his wife's regards. Years ago, Lady Butler, by the way, sent Mr. Jenkins a letter of appreciation for his sitting for the painting'. (South Wales Daily Post and Herald of Wales August 1912)

AG. ‘Liking to use models who were actual participants in the conflicts’ is not evidence that the soldier who actually modelled for the painting was at Rorke’s Drift. The family details are irrelevant; no one doubts Pte David Jenkins was in the 24th in Zululand, so of course he had the medal.

 Mr Rees. Preliminary sketches for the painting can be seen in a wide variety of books, but more topically The National Army Museum's Greatest Battles website features a sketch of a soldier kneeling with the name ‘Jenkins’ written above it. The picture is of a living soldier named ‘Jenkins’, not an idealised portrait of a dead one. Included in the drawing are additional sketches of the hand positions on the rifle in preparation for the main portrait. I am aware of only one soldier named Jenkins who claimed to be in the painting.

AG. Two points….

 1. Pte David Jenkins could have volunteered as the model for the dead man for any one of a number of reasons, it would certainly have been a soft and appropriate duty for a soldier suffering from a sexual disease. Being a model for a painting is not evidence that the model participated in the action. Indeed, art critic, Oliver Millar wrote when describing the key to the figures... One of these is inscribed ‘Jenkins’ by the artist but no soldier of this name is recorded as having been at the action.

 2. In the National Army Museum’s weighty tome ‘Ashes and Blood - The British Army in South Africa 1795-1914’ they have a section about Pte Jenkins and the Lady Butler painting, which negates Mr Rees’ above comment that ‘The picture is of a living soldier named ‘Jenkins’, not an idealised portrait of a dead one’. I quote… The drawings on this page are preliminary studies for the kneeling figure at the bottom left-hand corner of the completed canvas. They depict a soldier crouching to take aim, his bayonet scabbard bent underneath him, inscribed top right ‘Jenkins’ with two details of his hands holding a Martini-Henry rifle and squeezing the trigger. It is thought that the main figure could be either Robert (1857-98) or William Jones (1840-1913, both of whom won the Victoria Cross for gallantry at Rorke’s Drift. The only man named Jenkins present at the engagement was Pte M Jenkins whose death was witnessed by William Jones*. * See Boydon, Guy and Harding. Ashes and Blood - The British Army in South Africa 1795-1914 , National Army Museum, 1999. (p. 234)

Mr Rees. Several writers on RD such as James Bancroft ('The Rorke's Drift Men'), Lieutenant Colonel Mike Snook ('Like Wolves on the Fold' and Kris Wheatley (author of the Legacy series on the lesser known men at RD and a descendant of a RD soldier) have backed David's claim to be a Rorke's Drift Defender as well as his own regimental museum, of course, and now ... The National Army Museum.

AG. a. Pte David Jenkins never claimed to be a Rorke’s Drift defender.

b. Mr Rees states that the NAM supports his claim but I understand that it has now backed away from this story, and was not responsible for the recent publicity in the national press. I don’t know that anyone of the above has categorically supported Mr Rees’ claim. Staff at Brecon give this story a cautionary 80% possibility based on what they believe, which sounds fair to me as circumstantial evidence in the absence of any actual evidence. In our view, 80% is the starting point, not the finishing point for this research.

c. Col Snook’s 2006 ‘Like Wolves…’ omits Pte D. Jenkins and in any event, the book is unreferenced which precludes any check on his account.

d. Kris Wheatley appears to have dropped Pte D. Jenkins from her work.

e. In the findings of numerous Zulu War researchers over many years I have found no reference to Pte David Jenkins being at either Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, or anywhere else; John Young’s detailed ‘They Fell Like Stones’ follows suite, as does all of Ian Knight’s extensive and detailed research. Furthermore, there are a great number of letters home from participants; none make any reference to him. Much is being made of a ledger at Brecon’s 24th Regimental Museum containing names of participants at Rorke’s Drift, including Pte David Jenkins. This ledger was referred to by Welsh historian and researcher, the then Archivist at Caernarfon Castle, Norman Holme, author of The Noble 24th, as having formed part of his book’s research material – yet Norman Holme makes no mention of Pte. David Jenkins in any of his research, other than recording that he was present in Zululand at the time. We wonder if Norman Holme was referring to Pte David Jenkins when he wrote the following in his The Noble 24th … Many soldiers claimed to have been at Rorke’s Drift, or stated that they had been one of the garrison at that place. Throughout the 1930s and 1940s the pages of the Regimental journal of the South Wales Borderers contain many references to such men, usually in conjunction with their attendance at the funeral of a former comrade.

By 1978, Norman Holme had collated all known records of the 24th in Zululand and had a number of his collations printed under the title Medal Rolls of the 24th Foot; Adrian Greaves owns one of the first such editions which Norman Holme originally sent to his friend, Frank Emery (The Red Soldier).

Over the years that followed, Norman Holme continued his research for his following works, The Silver Wreath and The Noble 24th with the full support of the incumbent 24th Regimental Museum curators, and latterly Maj. Everett, who made available the latest contents of the regimental archives and assisted Norman Holme ‘on virtually a daily basis’. Over a period of more than twenty years, between 1978 and the publication of The Noble 24th in 1999, neither Norman Holme, nor his many researchers, found any reference to Pte David Jenkins.

It is Brecon museum staff’s hypothesis that the entry in question was written as a Depot diary, not a ledger. They believe the diary/ledger was overlooked by researchers due to its title, and that, somehow, Norman Holme and all other researchers saw it as a record of the 2/24th in the Napoleonic period, without noticing the second line and the dates of the 1/24th records, furthermore, they suggest anyone doing research into the AZW could easily be forgiven for missing the second title and not be aware of its existence.

 Its title is….

 Records of the 2/24th 1804-1813

Records of the 1/24th 1689-1905

In Brecon museum staff’s opinion, it is difficult to say who wrote the entry in the diary without a full investigation of the handwriting of various ‘potentials’. It is their opinion that the diary consolidated ‘various records’ held in the Depot. Someone clearly used a book that had space after the 2/24th entries (some 35 pages), to write (initially) a ‘catch up on the records’ of the 1/24th and subsequent officers have added to it, possibly a Depot Commandant or Depot Adjutant. There are about a hundred pages of considerable detail, written in different handwriting (which you would expect allowing for the length of the period). It is Brecon museum staff’s opinion that the entry in question looks like the work of Lieutenant George K Moore, an adjutant of the 1st Bn SWB and a participant in the 1879 conflict, not of Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift, but who took part in the march against Ulundi. The fact that he uses the SWB title points to the diary having been compiled following the formation of the South Wales Borderers in July 1881. To be fair to Lt. Moore, perhaps he based his entry on what he had seen written about David Jenkins when he sat for Lady Butler, and presumed he was the ‘Rorke’s Drift Jenkins’.

A Society member, and a serving army major, has been given sight of the Brecon museum ledger/diary to clarify the relevance of this document. Their report makes the following observations;

An insert for 14 Apr 1879 was present on the pages, which was out of sync. This implies that the details were added to this ledger in an order that linked specific events rather than a strict chronological order and that all entries were added retrospectively of the events. This is also supported by the signature by Lt G K Moore, which ends in 'SWB', clearly indicating he signed these entries off, at the earliest in 1881, or sometime after the 1st Bn became the SWB.

 The ledger appears to be a compilation of events, possibly pulled together by Adjutants several years after the events using unknown documents rather than an Orderly Book or Daily Diary. The name of Pte D. Jenkins is present but this could be an inaccurate record and shows no reference to the original nominal rolls.

The ledger is not 100% credible as a record of events as it was compiled years later, as indicated by the SWB mention in the signature.

The museum staff remain content that there is an 80% possibility Pte D Jenkins had an active role as an RD Defender based on this ledger, his Bible and the fact that Pte D Jenkins had attended various reunions of the events without being questioned by fellow soldiers.

 AG. 1. I accept this assessment as a very fair observation. I also totally accept the Brecon ledger/diary itself is 100% genuine. However, I agree with the observation … ‘The ledger is not 100% credible as a record of events as it was compiled years later, as indicated by the SWB mention in the signature’.

2. As Pte David Jenkins never claimed to be a Rorke’s Drift defender, why would anyone attending a reunion need to challenge him?

3. Had he been a Rorke’s Drift defender, might he at some point have asked for his name to be included on a ledger or roll?

The diary was donated to the Museum in 1950 by the family of an ex 24th officer. We have been requested by the regimental curator not to publish photographs of the diary/ledger.

 In the same vein of records referring to Pte David Jenkins being out of sync, the 1/24th Record of Services lists the following as having been present at the Drift, but the words… ‘had been sent’ were written by C/Sgt Edwards before he was killed at Isandlwana. He could not possibly have been referring to who was at Rorke’s Drift later on the 22nd… Sgt Wilson, Ptes Payton, Desmond, Jenkins and Roy had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a letter written by Col Sgt Edwards. If proof was required that this Edwards entry was out of sync, it certainly predates the battle as Roy was in the hospital at RD during the battle - he got the DCM. Since the other Jenkins (James, the one killed) was also 1st Battalion, Edwards could easily have been referring to him rather than David Jenkins, so in fact that reference doesn't confirm in any way that there were more than one Jenkins at RD.

 Moving on, it is accepted that Pte David Jenkins returned to the UK in possession of a ‘Rorke’s Drift Bible’ copies of which were given to all of B Company by the ladies of Durban.

 It is already known that these Bibles were put in B Company’s kit bags at the docks before the troops embarked from Durban. This is confirmed by no less than Pte John Williams VC who wrote…. When B Company boarded ship that very same day, each man had in his kit bag a Bible, which they would treasure for the remainder of their lives. Presented by the ladies of Durban, a philanthropic group, each signed by a ‘Miss Wilkinson’.

(1) If Pte John Williams VC is to be believed, there is no mention by him, or anyone else, of the Bibles going only to Rorke’s Drift men. Therefore, Pte David Jenkins’ name in his Bible cannot be evidence of his participation in the action. The contemporary press in South Arfica has many accounts of presentations and events for 24th men returning to Pietermaritzburg and Durban – none mention Bibles. With regard to the Mayoral Address, copies were presented to ‘The Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men of the 2nd Battalion of H.M. 24th Regiment’ ; this distribution also went beyond the Rorke’s Drift defenders and possession of a Mayoral Address cannot, on its own, be considered proof that a recipient was actually there. For example, one copy went to Pte. 25B/953 Frederick Evans, who we know was not at Rorke’s Drift As you can guess, Norman Holme’s and Julian Whybra’s views (JW’s England’s Sons) of suspect Rorke’s Drift claimants are re-emerging strongly again. Norman Holme logged all the 1879 records over many years and in 1998 wrote, Undoubtedly a number of veterans encouraged the belief [that they were at Rorke’s Drift] possibly to increase their standing within the community, or with members of their family. Unfortunately, such spurious claims are now firmly embedded in family folklore.

 (2) Likewise, in his section headed Letters from South Africa, (Zulu and Basuto Wars Complete medal Roll 1877-8-9) researcher Roy Dutton wrote…. Editors of newspapers were not very accurate in their printing of soldiers’ letters…they quite often mixed up similar sounding names and also managed to print accounts of some soldiers, who had never been present at Isandlwana or Rorke’s Drift. It is important to corroborate such material against other historical sources. The biographer of John Williams VC, W. G. Lloyd, wrote in his seminal work… Some men said they were at Rorke’s Drift but in fact they had never been to South Africa. Some had been at the small mission station with either the middle column or prior to the second invasion of Zululand, but failed to mention that they were not actually at the legendary rearguard action. And some were to impersonate John Williams VC. On at least three occasions known to the author, deceitful attempts to take advantage of his fame occurred.

 (3) We agree whole heartedly. See also, the accompanying Journal article about yet another recently uncovered ‘false claimant’, Pte George Langridge, who, according to his local newspaper, was given ‘a hero’s 21 gun salute’ at his funeral by the SWB. Woops! So, what is the answer in Pte. David Jenkins’ case? Sadly we have not yet seen any independent confirmation, or a convincing reason, for Pte David Jenkins being at Rorke’s Drift. Most of all, we cannot even find a clear, unequivocal claim from the man himself explaining his movements, or even claiming he was there. As anyone can see from his records, he was constantly in trouble with the authorities and had a distasteful disciplinary record as well as suffering ‘the jolly rant’ or syphilis (as did many soldiers of that period). He was undoubtedly a ‘regimental character’. This, to us, is a peculiar situation; a man who never claimed to have been at Rorke’s Drift is now being credited with having been there. With all the publicity, and welcome ‘hype’ for the Brecon museum, (not our interpretation) there is the possibility that, if left unchallenged, a belief will grow, and the story that Pte David Jenkins was at Rorke’s Drift as a defender will become ‘fact’- that is the power of myth turning into belief. As David Rattray frequently said when addressing selected audiences and speaking of ‘Welsh soldiers marching into Zululand singing ‘Men of Harlech’ – ‘why spoil a good story’?

With such willingness to make Pte David Jenkins a Rorke’s Drift defender, then what about other cases, for example, Sgt Cooper 1st 24th who is on the rolls of Isandlwana casualties. His family’s belief, in parallel with Jenkin’s family, is that Cooper was killed at Rorke’s Drift, a belief that is supported by his memorial service papers and a personal letter to his next of kin from the then CO of the 1st 24th at Helpmakaar Major Upcher, commanding Rorke’s Drift, confirming Sgt Cooper’s death on the 22nd January. This letter is, according to Brecon museum staff, unique; no similar letter is known to the museum.

(4) This supporting documentary evidence puts Cooper in close proximity to RD at the relevant time. However, despite this evidence, there is little compelling or substantiated evidence putting him specifically at Rorke’s Drift. Consequently, Sgt Cooper’s case is not probable but possible - nevertheless, there is more evidence to support Sgt Cooper’s case than Pte David Jenkins whose case is neither probable or possible. Finally, as a former detective of many years, let Adrian Greaves ask the reader to test the following imaginary scenario. For just a moment, let us turn the story on its head and retrospectively pretend that, because of the killing of several hundred Zulu wounded after the engagement, it was a crime to have been a Rorke’s Drift defender. Let us now put Pte David Jenkins on trial to face the charge. How could he possibly be found guilty on the ‘evidence’ currently being put forward to put him at Rorke’s Drift when the only line of evidence comes from the press of the day, which would clear him of the charge… that amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….who had been to the rear with prisoners. I submit the case against him would have to be dismissed on the strength of this line alone, especially when it is further supported by C/Sgt Edwards’ statement above, leaving no evidence that puts Pte David Jenkins anywhere near Rorke’s Drift at the material date/time. Therefore, why suggest the same lack of evidence proves he was present? If this scenario cannot pass such a test, there is no test to pass.

We believe Pte David Jenkins case should, therefore, be treated with caution until his Service Record, or any genuine contemporary record, or mention in another participant’s letter confirms his role as a ‘defender’; we would then willingly accept that the matter is beyond any question and we could then support the claim of Brecon museum staff and Mr Rees.

The above is our personal opinion. Let’s see what pops up.

 Dr Adrian Greaves, AZWHS. Author Rorke’s Drift Cassell 2002.

 Dr David Payne, AZWRS. Author Harford Ultimatum Tree Press 2008.

 References.

1. Lloyd, W.G. John Williams VC Three Arch Press, 1993.

 2. Holme, Norman. The Noble 24th Savannah Publications 1999. We accept he did not mention Frederick Herbert Brown either, but there is other evidence he was there.

3. Lloyd, W.G. John Williams VC Three Arch Press, 1993.

4. The original Upcher letter is in Adrian Greaves’ personal collection, Sgt Cooper’s medal is owned by an anonymous collector. See AZWHS Journal 21 for further details

. Post Script.

a. Numerous Society members, and the press, have asked about the value of such this soldier’s medal. A South Africa campaign medal to a non-combatant 24th soldier could fetch £900. A Rorke’s Drift defender’s medal would currently attract offers of £35,000 or more.

 b. I was surprised to see that Capt. Greaves, 2nd Bn 3rd Regiment NNC * , is mentioned in the same Brecon diary entry as Pte David Jenkins. According to this Brecon diary, Capt Greaves accompanied Capt Harford when the bodies of Coghill and Melvill were found. Being a very distant relative, I am aware Capt. Greaves’ arrived at Rorke’s Drift early on the 23rd January to help strengthen the position. The Brecon diary entry, of which I was totally unaware, supports the hypothesis that, I too, could have a family member who was significantly connected to Rorke’s Drift, albeit post engagement! As Capt Greaves was seemingly accompanying Capt Harford and Lt Hillier when they found Coghill and Melvill, perhaps he was one of those who also found Sgt Cooper’s body, now there’s a theory to go with my Upcher letter! The hypothesis that there were two soldiers bodies alongside Coghill and Melvill is based upon a contemporary account by Lt. Hillier **, and supported by a handwritten entry by Capt. Harford in his presentation copy of In Zululand with the British by Norris-Newman, presented to him in 1880 by the author, that the bodies found totalled ‘4’. This particular edition, formally owned and annotated throughout by Harford, is in my collection.

Dr Adrian Greaves * Referenced in a. Laband and Thompson. The Buffalo Border 1879 University of Natal, 1983 and b. Smith, Keith, L. Local General Orders Relating to the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. D.P. & G Publishers, 2005. ** Telegraph and Eastern Province Standard, 28 February 1879.

Tuesday 28th of May 2013 10:54:33 PM"
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:57 pm

I don't normally agree, but Impi doe's have a point! agree





Quote :
Ian Knight writer and historian who is internationally regarded as a leading authority on the nineteenth-century history of the Zulu kingdom, and in particular the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879.

Quote:
"I'm afraid your conclusions are a little premature. There is a good circumstantial case to be made that Pte Jenkins was at Rorke's Drift, but in fact his presence is not confirmed by any official account from the time, and some aspects of his case are open to debate. Ultimately, in the absence of anything definitive one way or the other, the verdict on whether he was there or not is always likely to remain open".

Ian Knight

Don't think Ian Knights would make the statement (Above) without good reason!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:14 pm

From David's post.

"We believe Pte David Jenkins case should, therefore, be treated with caution until his Service Record, or any genuine contemporary record, or mention in another participant’s letter confirms his role as a ‘defender’; we would then willingly accept that the matter is beyond any question and we could then support the claim of Brecon museum staff and Mr Rees."

Well 1879Graves posted his service papers. Nothing! The question is relating to David Jenkins, not other defenders.

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:20 pm

Bill the reason for the poll, is so others can makeup their own minds. The papers stated another defended as been added to the roll. Followed by images of a new Headstone, Stating Rorkes Drift. Like me they wasn't given the whole story. This discussion shows that!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:48 pm

I wonder if anyone has noticed the paragraph in David Payne's report that appears right at the end in the Postcript at B.

In it he expresses his surprise to find that a certain Captain Greaves (NNC) is mentioned in the same entry in the Brecon Diary as the one for David Jenkins. It apparently says that Greaves was with Harford when the bodies of Melvill and Coghill were discovered.

Turns out Capt. Greaves is a distant relative of David P and this revelation (In a document he was totally unaware of) supports the hypothesis that he too has a family connection to Rorke's Drift. Well theres another historian finding something new and good for him. But I do wonder a little why he finds the entry in the Brecon Diary about Capt. Greaves totally credible and the entry about David Jenkins not ?

On the question of further research being needed before adding D Jenkins to the Roll, I also wonder what documentation there is to research. Ian Knight says that there is nothing definitive and the question will always remain open - so best judgements need to be made on what is known now. I think that is exactly what has happened.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:36 pm

Hi everyone

Well, as I've said before people are getting nicely entrenched on this issue.

I will repeat once again the Museum position. Based on the research done, and the evidence of that research, the Museum is of the opinion that David Jenkins was PROBABLY there. We have seen nothing in the Greaves/Payne article that would convince us otherwise. However, that is what it's all about. As Adrian has said of his theories "This is our personal opinion". While I respect that they might interpret the facts in a different way, at least their opinions are formed on the basis of some research. Unfortunately within this thread there are many opinions that are NOT based on any research whatsoever, and those opinions often decry people who have done the hard miles.

Rusteze makes a good point in his third paragraph.

Certainly the 1/24 Record of Service is a document that could do with some serious in-depth research - so far (in this discussion) it has only been used to corroborate one fact - the presence of David Jenkins at RD. There are also many details relating to both RD and Isandlwana, the saving of the colour etc, etc. Only a few researchers have been aware of its existence, and many others (including Norman Holme) have not.

The media publicity I can not be responsible for . However, it is perhaps unfortunate that the NAM only contacted us here in Brecon AFTER many of the nationals had already run the story, based very much on Mr Rees' "new" discovery !

C'mon Impi, tell me where this "official" roll is, and who maintains it - I'm dying to know !!

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:56 pm

Quote :
"Certainly the 1/24 Record of Service is a document that could do with some serious in-depth research - so far (in this discussion) it has only been used to corroborate one fact - the presence of David Jenkins at RD"

Pity they were destroyed at Isandlwana?


Quote :
C'mon Impi, tell me where this "official" roll is, and who maintains it - I'm dying to know !!


What do mean "maintain" whoever has it, any amendments should be agreed with the regiment.

Still at least it as been established that your roll is not offical. Still can't understand why your avoiding David's questions. C'mon Bill have ago, at replying to David's post. Let's stay on track, instead do side tracking.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:17 am

You still do not understand - being present at RD on 22/23 January 1879 - does not give the individual soldier any extra military 'honour' or 'privilege' to wear - it is not as if he is awarded an extra 'bar' to his campaign medal (that notion will start another discussion thread I am sure). That is why there is no official roll. Yes. the families through the generations - and we all are - are naturally proud of their ancestor's achievements under difficult circumstances - but all this mystique and hype surrounding the battle has been created by enthusiasts and, dare I say, a number of so called anoraks (=untrained researchers).

The recent press articles have certainly caused some of those AZW enthusiasts to feel that they should have been involved personally in a consultation to add DJ to the list of those present at RD prior to these reports appearing. Hence the large number of postings in this forum. It is apparent to me there is a touch of sour grapes in all this. The Cooper story is a red herring - a mistake made by the Cooper family many years ago.

AG and DP have largely dismissed the RD bible presented and inscribed to DJ as evidence. Yet this bible was presented by the family to the regimental museum and its format and presentation matches four other RD bibles held by the museum. Are they suggesting the bible is now a elaborate hoax - for what purpose? Let us move on and now remember together with the DJ family with pride that DJ did his duty. The fact that his service record has many entries - was par of the course in those days in the British Army. AG and DP were also unaware of the local link DJ and Bdr Lewis and Chambers families which I feel seals the story. If after all this there are still some doubters - the lists of defenders (published on 10 February 1879) still lists 11 men from 1/24th at RD - if it is not DJ as one of the 11 - who is it then?
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PostSubject: Pvt David Jenkins ; Forgotten survivor of RD.   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:29 am

Dave .
Regarding your post on '' Service Papers '' from what I've noticed the service papers DO NOT go into any elaborate detail of where an individual was , unless they were wounded , decorated or mentioned in dispatches . The papers usually simply state , as an example the following from my collection ; Private John Bunn 1436 57th Regt , Sth Africa 20 Feb 79 - 13 Dec 79 230 days .
Next Column it states Campaigns ; South Africa Campaign 1879 . The following columns are the following ; Wounded , Effects Of Wounds , Special Instances Of Gallant Conduct and finally Medals and Decorations . Hope you understand what I'm attempting to say . Very Happy 90th
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:32 am

Hi 90th.

You are correct mate.

1879graves posted all this up some days ago, Sat 1st June (see page 18 of this topic).

There is no mention of RD on the service papers unless there was 'special circumstances'.

Cheers buddy.

Salute
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:48 am

Possibly, but it's just more evidence that shows him not present at Rorkes Drift.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:08 am

24th, Dave
The fact that David Jenkins papers do not show RD on them is NOT proof he wasnt there for two reasons. First the document itself states that there is no reason to list individual stations within a country and second the only listings of RD on any of the 150 participants are those that were either awarded a medal, wounded, killed or mentioned in despatches.And those notes are in the apropriate places on the service record under the provided headings.
If you are going to use that logic to proove that Jenkins wasnt at RD then you will have to do the same to over 100 more. Including the rather famous names of Windrige etc.
My own posting papers indicate a few different countries but not one of those entries shows the camps I was stationed at. ( And no I wasnt at RD either ) :p;:

Cheers agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:00 pm

Hi Dave

I think all the points that I would have made on Adrian's paper have already been made by others, notably Kenny and Martin. I would only be repeating what they have said above.

I will keep repeating the one point - come to Brecon, do your OWN research and make your OWN mind up !!!!!

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:27 pm

Bill can't see why you don't just post an image of the text that shows Jenkins scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:28 pm

Interlectural Property rights?
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PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:12 pm

This is getting all rather silly.

Colour Sgt Edwards (KIA iSandlwana), clearly says that DJ was with the prisoner escort party sent to the rear (RD).

Chard's roll clearly shows that there were two Pte Jenkins at RD. One of these (841 Jenkins) was killed in the hospital, and this is clearly shown on Chard's roll.

Chard reports that a Pte Jenkins warned him about a zulu bullet heading his way, this could not have been 841 Jenkins because he was debilitated in the hospital.

Chard's roll clearly shows the two Pte Jenkins, it shows that one Pte Jenkins was killed in the hospital, this was 841 Pte Jenkins, so who was the other Pte Jenkins?

Well, on Chard's roll the other Jenkins is shown as being 1083 Pte Jenkins, but this is totally impossible because 1083 Pte Jenkins was KIA at iSandlwana, so who do we have left called Jenkins at RD????

Well, guess what, Shocked we still have the Pte Jenkins that Col Sgt Edwards says was sent to the rear with the escort party, now I wonder who that was then????

It is so simple really isn't it, it must be Pte David Jenkins, and he was shown on Chard's roll all the time, but someone got his number wrong, they listed 1083 instead of 295.

Hey springy, I thought that you were at RD recently, you posted some piccies up didn't you? :p;:



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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:19 pm

John

Because of the reason I gave above.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:41 pm

Record of Service of the 1st/24th

"At the gallant defence of Rorke's Drift under Lieuts Bromhead and Chard the following men of the 1/24 Regiment were present
Serjeant E Wilson
Private P Desmond
ditto Nichols
ditto D Horrigan
ditto D Jenkins
ditto Paton
ditto Beckett
ditto W Roy
ditto W Waters"

**** Note: Initials and spellings of surnames are as written

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:04 pm

This information Is from the RDVC. Submitted by Bill.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:52 pm

1st Battalion, 24th Regiment of Foot: 2nd Warwickshires

Sergeant E. Wilson. Privates: W. Beckett, P. Desmond, W. Horrigan, J. Jenkins, E. Nicholas, T. Payton, W. Roy, H. Turner, and J. Waters.

Whos Turner scratch


Source [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:09 pm

My info comes from photocopies of the original, although I also have copies from what must be a second version of the same document/register....which may, I think, be at the NA

Interestingly the list of 124th men 'present' does not include 104 Private Henry Turner....who is named on the 'Chard' roll and also on the Bourner Amended Roll, nor does it include 841 Private James Jenkins.

It also states Private 'D' Horrigan instead on 'W' Horrigan and 'W' Waters instead of 'J' Waters

So did they actually mean 'D' Jenkins or was this an error as well.................
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:41 pm

Surgeon Reynolds account of the Battle
“The only men actually killed in the hospital were three, excluding a Kaffir under treatment for compound fracture of the femur. The names were Sergeant Maxfield, Private Jenkins, both unable to assist in their escape, being debilitated by fever
Here we have Reynolds saying (High-Lighted)

Padre George Smith's account from his diary
One poor fellow (Jenkins), venturing through one of these was also seized and dragged away

Then we have Smith saying (High-Lighted) Killed while trying to escape.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:01 pm

Who is "Conley" Present at Rorkes Drift scratch
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:08 pm

last one tonight.

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Name Burial Place
Pte. David Jenkins Cwmgelli Municipal Cem. Swansea
Pte. David Jenkins Cefn Cem. Merthyr Tydfil

When he was alive he was in two place at once. Isandlwana Rorkes Drfit.

And when he died he was in two places. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:33 pm

Ulundi wrote:
Who is "Conley" Present at Rorkes Drift scratch

Coud be "Connolly"
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