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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorkes Drift roll of defenders
Yes
49%
 49% [ 23 ]
No
4%
 4% [ 2 ]
More research should have been done
45%
 45% [ 21 ]
It was all a publicly stunt
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Doesn't really matter
2%
 2% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 47
 

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:14 am

Neither does John or impi, does that imply anything?
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:28 pm

John and impi have a lot in common with David Jenkins and the other Rorkes Drift defenders; fighting a seemingly hopeless battle against overwhelming odds!!!
Difference being, that Jenkins and the other defenders had a firm well prepared base to stand on. John and impi do not have a leg to stand on!
There is only one person who can convince impi that Jenkins was at RD. And that person is impi. You can't do it, I can't do it, Whybra can't do it and I bet Ian Knight couldn't do it.
Until impi and John read the evidence for themselves, they will not be convinced. But they know, that to read the evidence will prove them wrong and they don't want to admit they are wrong.
But until they read the evidence for themselves and base their opinions on that evidence and not their prejudice, they no longer have a valid opinion on this topic, which can be taken with even a single grain of seriouslness.
Their opinions are no more than a joke, to be laughed at by the rest of us.
Nor do they have any right, to post any further on this topic.

Still waiting for my copy to drop out of the mail! My opinion will be based on that. I am currently 80% convinced DJ was there, but from the comments of senior members of this forum who have read the work, I anticipate I will be 99 - 100% convinced by this time next week.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:53 pm

kopie wrote:
John and impi have a lot in common with David Jenkins and the other Rorkes Drift defenders; fighting a seemingly hopeless battle against overwhelming odds!!!
Difference being, that Jenkins and the other defenders had a firm well prepared base to stand on. John and impi do not have a leg to stand on!
There is only one person who can convince impi that Jenkins was at RD. And that person is impi. You can't do it, I can't do it, Whybra can't do it and I bet Ian Knight couldn't do it.
Until impi and John read the evidence for themselves, they will not be convinced. But they know, that to read the evidence will prove them wrong and they don't want to admit they are wrong.
But until they read the evidence for themselves and base their opinions on that evidence and not their prejudice, they no longer have a valid opinion on this topic, which can be taken with even a single grain of seriouslness.
Their opinions are no more than a joke, to be laughed at by the rest of us.
Nor do they have any right, to post any further on this topic.

Still waiting for my copy to drop out of the mail! My opinion will be based on that. I am currently 80% convinced DJ was there, but from the comments of senior members of this forum who have read the work, I anticipate I will be 99 - 100% convinced by this time next week.
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy scratch scratch  Joker

Be sure to taste your words before you spit them out. No 


Last edited by impi on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:58 pm

kopie says.."Their opinions are no more than a joke, to be laughed at by the rest of us.
Nor do they have any right, to post any further on this topic."

please dont assume or presume that you speak for everybody. i speak for myself, and i
defend the right of impi/john to say any thing at any time. i dont agree with them! but
then, that's not the point, is it.. cheers xhosa
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:17 pm

Kopie. Up to now your posts have been very informative. Don't change! 
Everyone is entilted to an opinion. If we all agreed it would be boring. 

Impi has always maintained DJ was incorrectly added to the roll. Julian was part of the team that added his name to the museum roll. 

Julian undertook the research to prove a point, but he failed to say it would cost to see the evidence. his work will convince some, based on the fact in came from him.
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DrummerBoy 16



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:52 pm

Chard

Or the fact that hard facts are provided that prove he was there Question
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:17 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
Kopie. Up to now your posts have been very informative. Don't change! 
Everyone is entilted to an opinion. If we all agreed it would be boring. 

Impi has always maintained DJ was incorrectly added to the roll. Julian was part of the team that added his name to the museum roll. 

Julian undertook the research to prove a point, but he failed to say it would cost to see the evidence. his work will convince some, based on the fact in came from him.
agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:44 am

Julian Whybra nor anyone else exists to prove anything to anyone. He has published his works, its there for you to see. Nobody is challenging Knight Greaves etc to make there books available for free just to satisfy a small minded minority! Get out their and do your own research and contribute to meaningful discussions instead of being satisfied with negatives, sarcasm and outright insulting behaviour. Julian as has Ian Knight, and to a small degree myself and a host of others provided source backed opinions/theories for discussion. In general criticism is neither based on fact or history but repeated denial without any form of solid factual base.
For a few members their sole research is this forum. I don't have a problem with that and am happy to contribute to an all round knowledge of the wars and spark debate but this continued disparagement will lose this forum some learned members and leave it on a threadbare knowledge basis. Its already happening with a number of researchers and authors retreating from participation.
As with any post/topic on any forum, the onus is on the member to research and base any repudiation on fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:15 am

Chard

Two corrections to your speculations:

As a matter of record I was not part of the "team that added [Jenkins's] name to the museum roll".  The then curator had that responsibility and came to his own conclusions without any intervention from me.  I looked at the then research subsequently and independently and did my own research and reached the same conclusion as the then curator. Martin Everett will confirm this. You cannot have yet read my essay otherwise you would have been aware of this from its opening paragraphs.

I did not undertake the research "to prove a point".  In trying to recall my reasons for Jenkins's inclusion seven years ago I realized I needed to check whether I'd missed anything for or against that inclusion.  Neither did I fail "to say it would cost to see the evidence".  Look back in this thread.  I was quite clear in stating that I intended to include an essay in the next volume of Studies in the ZW and that I would make no more comments until I had done so.  Thirty odd pages of finished work cannot be put on this thread.  To be taken seriously, research has to be put in the wider public domain and made available for peer review.  Nothing will convince any serious devotee of the ZW, based merely on the fact that it came from me (I don't have a 'readership' as such), unless you assume readers are stupid.  I certainly don't regard potential readers as stupid.  I try to put myself in their position and think what sort of argued presentation would it take to convince me absolutely one way or the other.  Readers are hard taskmasters.  You not only have to demonstrate the points FOR an argument, you also have to demonstrate the points AGAINST the opposing one.  Only the facts will convince people.  And they are what I set out to find.  They will speak for themselves, as you will see when you read the essay.  And I hope you enjoy reading it (and the others in that volume).  I've already begun volume 3.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:42 am

springbok9 wrote:
Julian Whybra nor anyone else exists to prove anything to anyone. He has published his works, its there for you to see. Nobody is challenging Knight Greaves etc to make there books available for free just to satisfy a small minded minority!  Get out their and do your own research and contribute to meaningful discussions instead of being satisfied with negatives, sarcasm and outright insulting behaviour. Julian as has Ian Knight, and to a small degree myself and a host of others provided source backed opinions/theories for discussion. In general criticism is neither based on fact or history but repeated  denial without any form of solid factual base.
For a few members their sole research is this forum. I don't have a problem with that and am happy to contribute to an all round knowledge of the wars and spark debate but this continued disparagement will lose this forum some learned members and leave it on a threadbare knowledge basis. Its already happening with a number of researchers and authors retreating from participation.
As with any post/topic on any forum, the onus is on the member to research and base any repudiation on fact.
It's the learned ones that force each
other to leave, David Payne being a good ex sample. And your unnecessary comments recently regarding, Saul David is a bit contradictory of the above.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:58 am

Dave
David Payne published a counter argument based on very little and couldn't substantiate his argument under debate. As far as Im aware he is still a member of the forum. He was and still is treated with respect, even down to my visit to his project in RD and donations to that project last week.
Saul Davids critisism has never been counter argued by himself and he never answers critics of his works or the often erroneous conclusions, much derided by other authors and researchers
The 'learned ones' are happy to accept counter arguments based on fact while still retaining respect for each other. There was fierce debate between Julian and 90th not to long ago but has not reached the levels of vendetta launched by yourself john and impi against Julian Whybra, all without a shred of counter argument that did not consist or hyperboly innuendo insufficiently researched comment or down right rudeness.
If you want to criticize my post then that is your right, but attend to the whole post not selected passages. And do not have the arrogance to suggest that the three of you are important enough to warrant special consideration.

Salute 
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:23 pm

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."  (George Bernard Shaw).

That is meant as a compliment to impi and the other "unreasonable" men on this forum, who like King Canute, still defy the overwhelming weight of the tide of evidence that swells over them!
The poll above, even before Whybra's latest work, shows that 49% of voters thought YES, Jenkins was a RD defender whilst 45% said they thought more research should be done.
That research has now been done, so I make it that 99% of voters are now satisfied.
Julian Whybra has now carried out that research and he should be applauded and congratulated for that.
I do believe, however, that to at least some extent, impi and the other "unreasonable" members of this forum did prompt Whybra to undertake this research for his latest work.
To that end, impi et al have done David Jenkins, his descendants and the whole body of knowledge on the Zulu War a great service, as if anything, this extra research that Whybra has published will undoubtedly show, with even greater certainty, that Jenkins no.2 WAS indeed a defender of the drift.

OK, yes, I am still waiting to read my copy next week and am still open to being convinced one way or the other, and yes impi, I will eat my words, spit them out AND apologise publicly on this forum if Whybra's work does not convince me, or indeed pushes me the other way into being a doubter, like yourself.

I also fully support people having opinions, I don't disrespect that xhosa, not at all. But at least my opinion will be based on READING all the available evidence. By his own admission, impi has not read, and has indeed declared that he will not read it, by refusing to spend the necessary £12.99, in order to read the available evidence. So in that case, his opinion is no longer a valid one. As 90th says, impi is "burying his head in the sand" like an ostrich, in order to NOT SEE the evidence.
An opinion is NOT A VALID one, and can not be taken seriously, if he who states that opinion has not availed himself of all the available facts and evidence on the case, to which he refers. In that case, that "opinion" is no more than a prejudice.

That aside though, I think impi and the other doubters ought to be congratulated for the part they have played, in progressing the David Jenkins question.

Ironically, all their doubts and unreasonable opnions have only firmed up the case that proves Jenkins no.2 was in fact a Rorke's Drift defender! Well done lads!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Kopie wrote:
overwhelming weight of the tide of evidence that swells over them!
What overwhelming evidence would that be:scratch: 
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:26 pm

Springbok wrote:
Saul Davids critisism has never been counter argued by himself and he never answers critics of his works
You make it sound, as though he is expected to. Either way his books sell.

And there is a big difference between a book and a essay.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:07 pm

Impi, you were willing to wait for the publication to be produced, it has, but your now stating that you are not going to look at the publication, to see how JW counter attacks your argument. From your point of view it doesn't help with other members goading you into buying the said publication and making judgments regarding JW publication when most of them haven't obtained a copy yet. But I can't get my head around where your going to go with this. The balls in your court. 

I'm sure JW wouldn't have published the document if he hadn't found supporting evidence, to show DJ was there. JW does come across a being quite arrogant, which I don't like, but I guess that's his way. Look at the evidence, if it's correct then say so, if not state your reasons why! 


I do agree with you in that, the name should not have been added, until JW had completed his research. Then the procedure Mike Snook recommended should have been followed.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:19 pm

Em!! Well CTSG. Your last seems to have brought this disccussion to an abrupt halt!
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:54 pm

CTSG. I have no intention of purchasing the artical. However I do know, from the horses mouth, the only addition is another letter supposedly written by DJ. If members are convinced by the new evidence that's something for them to be happy about. The new evidence should be shown to the relevant persons who decide such things. Or as you mention Mike Snook's recommendation.

Those that have the book, do not have the authority to add DJ to the roll.
He who wrote the artical does not have the authority to add DJ to the roll.

However as his name as only been added to the museum roll, there's no harm done. But as for DJ receiving a new headstone showing him to be a defender at RD, is wrong. The headstone is giving false representation to those who view it!

Hope that give a clear indication of where I stand.

Do it correctly, if correct add his name to the offical roll. Not some historians club in a museum who have compiled their own. Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:10 pm

impi,
I will be the first to criticise Whybra, if I am not satisfied that the evidence he has published does not prove Jenkins no.2 was at Rorkes Drift during the battle, as I will have been conned out of 12.99 squids of my own money + postage!

However, I am confident that it will all add up. Springbok9, possibly the most experienced and knowledgeable member of this forum has read it and seems convinced. Secondly, Whybra has told you personally in a post a few pages back, what extra evidence is in this latest article. Here it is, spelled out once again:

1. a 3rd letter from him after RD stating that he had been at RD, had not been at Isandhlwana, saying how he'd come to be there, etc.
2. a contemporary roll for RD (i.e. finding the evidence for the 1879 roll on which the 1929 Chard roll was based) which names two Jenkinses, one live, one kia.
3. an exposition and proof that Chard's report was arranged chronologically thus proving that the two Jenkinses could not be one and the same man
4. a letter proving that Butler's models for her painting were ALL RD participants
5. a letter from Butler to Jenkins thanking him for sitting for her
6. numerous reports publicly demonstrating his acceptance as a participant in front of other RD participants.

It is not just one letter written by David Jenkins himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:14 pm

Kopie, try reading Impi's post again. Your covering old ground. Look at what he is saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:39 pm

John, Impi said
impi wrote:
If you read my posts, all I have ever wanted is factual evidence, to show his presence at RD,
That evidence has now been provided in an official publication.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:51 pm

LoL. Official Say's who?
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:20 pm

True. There is no "official" mouth piece for this conflict.

I understand J Whybra to be a professional, intelligent, thorough, unbiased historian, who would probably derive as much satisfaction in proving that a previously accepted defender was NOT at Rorkes Drift, as much as proving a man who was ommitted from contemporary rolls of defenders WAS present.

But Whybra is no "Official" spokesperson. In fact, as far as I know, there is no "official" history of this nation, because if there was - we would be living in a state where freedom of information and thought was restricted. Thank God we are not!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:59 pm

impi wrote:
CTSG. I have no intention of purchasing the artical. However I do know, from the horses mouth, the only addition is another letter supposedly written by DJ. If members are convinced by the new evidence that's something for them to be happy about. The new evidence should be shown to the relevant persons who decide such things. Or as you mention Mike Snook's recommendation.

Those that have the book, do not have the authority to add DJ to the roll.
He who wrote the artical does not have the authority to add DJ to the roll.

However as his name as only been added to the museum roll, there's no harm done. But as for DJ receiving a new headstone showing him to be a defender at RD, is wrong. The headstone is giving false representation to those who view it!

Hope that give a clear indication of where I stand.

Do it correctly, if correct add his name to the offical roll. Not some historians club in a museum who have compiled their own.  Salute 

Fair comment. Good enough for me! Agree with the Snook recommendation.
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:16 pm

What is the "Snook recommendation" ?

If this were carried out, would it satisfy the doubters?

I am guessing the Snook recommendation would be an independant panel of interested/ academic parties who would peer review the evidence that Julian Whybra has uncovered and say yay or nay?

This, in any case would not be a bad idea. Perhaps Mike Snook (or impi) could organise this?



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:41 pm

Sorry Pete. I know we shouldnt copy from that site, but to keep this topic moving. Kopie I will post two posts from the RDVC one from the Administrator. Who if I'm not mistaken, is thinking along the lines of Impi.

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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 1:41 pm

So then, is 295 Pte. David Jenkins to be added to the list of defenders? 
Who decides on that sort of thing?


Reply
Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:10 pm

Alan

Such matters would rest with the descendant regiment, on the basis of the best historical advice it can obtain. That would undoubtedly be channelled through Martin. Maybe he should convene a panel of wise men to arbitrate the case!! He's out of the country at the moment, but I'm sure will comment upon his return.

Regards as ever

Mike.

This I'm sure would satify many!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:14 pm

If you go back over my pervious post, you will see, that I have always maintained DJ name should be added correctly. Not based on another letter turning up out of the blue. If his name is added correctly I would purchase a copy, because the document would have some historic reference to DJ rightly being added to the offical roll. 

At present the document is only showing another letter being found. If JW is that confident, let him speak to Mike Snook who will advise him on he can go about presenting his evidence, and getting DJ added! 

The main problem here is that people agree is true, because it came from JW, and for that reason only.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:23 pm

Impi wrote:
I would purchase a copy, because the document would have some historic reference to DJ rightly being added to the offical roll.
agree  Can't say fairer that!!!agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:25 pm

CTSG
"Fair comment"?????
So not to look at ALL the evidence is acceptable in your book, is it?
How can anyone make any comment and expect it to be taken as worthwhile unless they have examined the new evidence (and it is NOT just one letter).  I have spent several months gathering that new evidence.  I will be interested to hear comments and to respond to criticisms from those who've looked at it.  I think it's foolproof.
Pride goes before a fall.  Those with their head stuck in the sand will never allow themselves to suffer loss of pride.  Ergo they will never recant.  Ergo they can never look at the new evidence.  It is easier for them to remain in ignorance.  Ignorance lets them off the hook.
It is difficult to see how any forum member will take seriously anything they write on the subject of Jenkins again.  They will simply be uninformed.

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:27 pm

Snook's advice was that the regiment would channel the request to consider DJ for inclusion on the roll through the curator of the regimental museum (then Martin Everett). As I understand it, that has already been done and Bill has spelled out the museums position earlier in the thread. There is no official roll and there is no official history - unlike other wars of the period.

Steve
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:59 pm

Bill was speaking about the roll they made up in the museum. Not the offical roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:00 pm

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:12 pm

Nothing we didn't know already. The fact that JW thought it prudent to research some more, shows that adding of DJ wasn't done correctly. 

Note Added to the roll of honour, that hangs in the museum. That's not the offical roll. 

This poor familey is just being strung along, for ego's
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:17 pm

So we are back to where we started! 

Impi does have a point regarding, JW speaking to Mike Snook. 

Come on JW. You have gone this far, get his name added correctly!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:29 pm

The first page of this topic around 45% of people stated that more research should be done before Jenkins is added to the roll of defenders.
That research has now been done and new evidence has been published.
The new evidence should be examined and then it should be decided whether or not there is sufficient evidence for Jenkins to be added to the names of RD defenders.

Thats my opinion on this anyway !



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:35 pm

Deleted off topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:06 pm

DrummerBoy 16 wrote:
The first page of this topic around 45% of people stated that more research should be done before Jenkins is added to the roll of defenders.
That research has now been done and new evidence has been published.
The new evidence should be examined and then it should be decided whether or not there is sufficient evidence for Jenkins to be added to the names of RD defenders.

Thats my opinion on this anyway !



agree   Agreed. Snooks advise, should be followed through the correct channels.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:24 pm

Ah!! DB. I see your back in the game. Good to see you have an opinion agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG
"Fair comment"?????
So not to look at ALL the evidence is acceptable in your book, is it?
How can anyone make any comment and expect it to be taken as worthwhile unless they have examined the new evidence (and it is NOT just one letter).  I have spent several months gathering that new evidence.  I will be interested to hear comments and to respond to criticisms from those who've looked at it.  I think it's foolproof.
Pride goes before a fall.  Those with their head stuck in the sand will never allow themselves to suffer loss of pride.  Ergo they will never recant.  Ergo they can never look at the new evidence.  It is easier for them to remain in ignorance.  Ignorance lets them off the hook.
It is difficult to see how any forum member will take seriously anything they write on the subject of Jenkins again.  They will simply be uninformed.

But it's ok for members to say its correct before they have read the artical. You remained silent at that stage. If your confident your findings show JD to be there, do the right thing. Get him added to the offical roll, not your made up one hanging in a museum. If you don't know how to go about it. May I suggest you contact Mike Snook, he will advise you.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:42 pm

JW. Here's a clue! 

Mike Snook recommends.

"Such matters would rest with the descendant regiment, on the basis of the best historical advice it can obtain. That would undoubtedly be channelled through Martin. Maybe he should convene a panel of wise men to arbitrate the case" 

Play your cards right. You. bill, and Martin, could be the three wise men agree
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:33 am

and after all that,if you got your
' wish list ' you are still doomed
to disappointment! king canute.

your up against the establishment
now..and your continually dissin
the memory of a deceased patriot.
i hear your concerns, but they dont
hold water because of your constant
vacillation's you leap on each tenant
presented with the same entrenched
dogmatic view. " its wrong but for the
life of me i cant state with any athor-
ity why that is the case!. impi. s..t
or get off the pot. its nice you have
sycophants i hope they are a comfort
to you. dont be so crass and insensitive.
there are living descendents hearing
your crap.scratch . cheers xhosa
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:20 am

Why on earth would Julian Whybra a pretty senior researcher of international repute need to get approval from a man who has written two semi fictitional books on the AZW. Albeit he is an ex Colonel of the regiment, the Ex being the operative word. He holds virtually no standing in the world of research and academia.
Julian Whybra has done what he does, published a paper on the results of his research. If there is disagreement with this from his peers then so be it let it happen. To date there has been none at all. Possibly responses are being considered AFTER due analysis of the paper. I personally look forward to those responses.
Its not up to JW to change the "Official Role" but the men in charge of the Regimental History, this I would assume being the trustees of the museum who would I think look at available argument for and against and make a judgement based on that fact. On going research into the numbers at RD is just that, ongoing. Norman Holmes etc have worked on this for years, I don't recall to many objections in the past?
If there is objection therefore may I suggest that it be taken up with the relevant authorities at the regiment and lodge an official objection based on sound argument.
Sound argument is something which is totally lacking at present. Ive seen emotional objections, God knows why, and a lot of rhetoric but to date no one has answered the key questions put to the forum.
David Payne et al published a counter argument that I was really keen to see but it produced nothing of substance and a fare amount of misleading information.
To the forum detractors, good on you, you rightly make your voices heard. But, put up some counter argument instead of just negative insults and comment.
Answer the questions put up by the 'fors' and provide a good 'against' platform.

So far any arguments have led to personal attacks and purile sarcasm. Put that away and do what this forum was designed for............discussion.

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