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Zulu.Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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1879graves

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptySat Apr 06, 2013 9:07 pm

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90th

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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smyth 1 / 1 NNC    Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptySat Apr 06, 2013 11:56 pm

From ' For God , Queen & Colony ' By Terry Sole .
Capt Smythe , D.M. Late 79th Regt , shortly after Isandlwana he returned to the UK . He was not present at Isandlwana .
Cheers 90th.
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littlehand

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptySun Apr 07, 2013 12:08 am

I take it, this is the same chap.

COLONEL DAVID MURRAY SMYTHE, THIRTEENTH OF BRACO AND SEVENTH OF METHVEN CASTLE. 
"The present owner of these estates was born on 17th November 1850; he served in the Cameron Highlanders and in the Zulu War 1878-1879 and commanded the 3rd Battalion of the Black Watch until 1897. Col. Smythe is Deputy-Lieutenant and Justice of the Peace for Perthshire; he married on 17th September 1898 Katherine, fourth daughter of William, third Lord Bagot. They had a daughter Barbara."
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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyWed Oct 23, 2013 11:50 pm

littlehand, again, outstanding. xhosa
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 10:39 am

Thanks to all, but note that Sole does not say why he thinks Smythe was not at Isandhlwana. I know that the obituary does not mention it but then it mentions nothing about his other military experiences either.
Terry Sole is not someone I've had dealings with personally. If anyone has, can I suggest that you ask him his reasons for the remark. If he has definitive information I would very much like to know. If no-one has, let me know and I'll contact him via his publisher.
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Frank Allewell

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 11:23 am

Crealock created a troops return, undated but appro January 1879 in which he shows Captain Barton as being in charge of 1/1 3/1 stationed at Kranskop. If anyone has access to this document it could place Smyth.

There is also a news paper report dated 17th January 1879 which reports two companies of the 1st battalion and the mounted contingent moving up to Helpmakaar under Major Bengough, Captains Russell RA, Nourse Henderson and Barton.
No mention of Captain Smyth.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smythe 1/1st Regt NNC    Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 11:38 am

Hi Julian .
I'm not home to check but would / did D.M.Smythe rate a mention in Paul Thompson's '' Black Soldiers Of The Queen '' ?
I dont know Terry Sole , but its unfortunate he never left his reasoning in his book , as to why he thought Smythe wasnt at Isandlwana . You need to study mo 
Cheers 90th
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 12:57 pm

springbok
That would indeed be important depending on its actual date pre- or post-Isandhlwana. I don't have this doc.
The newspaper report you quote doesn't mention Capt. Shepstone either. Honestly though, I wouldn't expect it to have mentioned a Captain with an unassigned role.
90th
Thompson doesn't mention him. You write of Terry Sole in the past tense. I take it he's still alive??
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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smithe    Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 1:57 pm

Hi Julian.
Sorry about that ! . As far as I know Terry Sole is still with us . Salute 
90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 2:43 pm

Julian
Im trying to track the document down.
Your quite right, Shepstone isn't mentioned in the article, but his presence is corroborated many times. The point Im trying to get across is that after LGO 209 of the 28th November 1878, Smyth becomes the invisible man. With the exception of the obituary and one news paper report there is nothing at all that places him in Zulu land. One can argue as you have that there is no evidence placing him else where but that could equally apply to my great great granddad who went for a walk one day and didn't come back. Very Happy  But as far as Im aware all the officers, except for Barton made statements or discussed the battle at some point, and Im pretty sure at one point Barton did make some comments in a minor way.
The points against do seem to be accumulating though.

Regards
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 3:41 pm

Point understood. All I'm saying is that the last we heard of Smythe was his inclusion on a survivors list in a newspaper. There must have been something that prompted that inclusion. I'm fully aware that he might not have been at Isandhlwana and will be happy either way it goes. The truth is what's important and I want England's Sons to be as accurate as possible.
I'll do some more digging of my own and see what I can come up with.
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Frank Allewell

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 4:15 pm

Hi Julian
Hopefully I shall have a copy of the Crealock Return over the weekend, it is pre iSandlwana and was compiled at Sandrift early January. Chelmsford/Crealock arrived at Helmakaar on the 4th January so any audit by Crealock would have had to be done late December early January. Unfortunatly I don't have a record of when he arrived at Sandspruit/msinga.
Really is an absorbing topic.
One other point, the three battalions of the 1st Regiment where only re distributed/amalgamated when they got to Rorkes Drift so Smythe wouldn't have been an unattached or super numery whilst at Sand Spruit.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Springbok
Some years back I spoke to a descendant of Smythe's from a subsidiary line and he was under the impression that DM Smythe had been at Isandhlwana. DM Smythe had one daughter, Barbara, and I don't believe she ever married. The main line of the current family comes from DM's brother (Charles John Smythe the onetime prime minister of Natal) and that family still lives in Natal.
I reckon that's a family a South African could track down with ease to ask a few polite questions about their ancestor.
Anyone up for that job??
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Julian Whybra



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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 4:46 pm

I've e-mailed Terry Sole and am waiting for a reply.
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Julian Whybra



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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Charles John Smythe had several children including:

Rowan whose son David Montrose who had two sons both living in Natal.

Edric Murray whose first son John Murray had Donovan born 1945 living in Natal
and whose second son Athol had a daughter Cynthia Evelyn born 1952 living in Ladysmith (no record of her having married).

That should help you, Watson!
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Frank Allewell

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 5:10 pm

Elementary dear sir.
A branch of the family from his grandfather settled in Natal. The younger David fought at the siege of Ladysmith, Charles was the first South African Victoria Cross winner. Young David by the way was a trooper in the Natal Carbineers.
David Murray himself is really the landed gentry, long line going back, traceable, to the 1600's.
But in all the Peerage articles, Burks, Whos who etc not a mention of any war decorations.

A four pipe problem Im anticipating.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 24, 2013 6:06 pm

That's all true but the branch which is closest to David Murray S. is in Natal and if anyone's going to have the gen on him it'll be them.  They'll know one way or the other.  They might even be in touch with daughter Barbara (whose children could still be alive).
It's pronounced 'Smith', if you didn't already know.


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PostSubject: The Murray brothers    Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 5:18 am

Hi All,
The Murray brothers were students at Glenwood High School, Durban in the '60's and resided in one of the southern Durban suburbs.

regards,

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 6:32 am

Hi Julian
The Status report from Crealock is a damp squib Im afraid, it only shows the regimental distribution in Natal not the individuals. There are a couple of other leads Im following.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 8:21 am

Julian
Ok prepared to concede that D M Smythe was at isandlwana.
An essay by Graham Alexander provided the key.
Norris Newman: In Zululand with the British throughout the war of 1879.
23rd January Rorkes Drift.
'Colonel Russell was then sent on, with a mounted escort, in order to see if the road was open to Helpmakaar, and to learn what had been and was done there. During his absence, however, three officers arrived, belonging to the 1st NNC under Major Bengough (part of what had been Colonel Durnfords force), They had ridden from Helpmakaar, and found the roads open and clear of the enemy."
The four surviving officers from the 1st were Nourse, Stafford, Erskine and ? Erskine was injured (Symons accounts for his presence at Helpmakaar) so the third must have been Smythe, he's the only one unaccounted for.

Interesting exercise
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 10:14 am

Since yesterday I've been e-mailed by a well-known AZW researcher reminding me that I had been introduced to one of Smythe's descendants a few years ago who confirmed DM's presence at Isandhlwana. I did mention this earlier in the thread but because oral tradition is not necessarily regarded as hard evidence it was worth persisting with this to see if any 'paper' evidence survives within the family. As it turns out, springbok has done a brilliant bit of digging himself - something I wasn't aware of - congrats!
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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 6:49 pm

Springbok. On the web link I posted " The Defense of "Helpmekaar" Captain D. Smythe. Natal Native Contgt. Was counted in as one of the survivors who made it to helpmarker. Was there some doubt with that? 
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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Oct 25, 2013 6:56 pm

LH
Yes but only from me. Julian, Keith Smith, Ian Knight all said he was at isandlwana. I couldn't find anything that actually placed him in Zulu land until the Essay and I checked back with the dates and numbers. It was just a bug I had up my A**s as our American cousins say. So glad its out of the way and the Good David Murray Smythe can RIP.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 am

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Oct 03, 2019 9:58 am

Well, at least that shows he was in Zululand. I'd be surprised if there were any more detail.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyWed Nov 13, 2019 7:37 pm

I think I have his Isandlwana account, an excerpt really. I'll try and dig it up.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyThu Nov 14, 2019 9:43 am

Well, there is a report of an interview with him.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 am

This site has him down a serving with the NNC

https://prabook.com/web/mobile/#!profile/735242
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 1:09 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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John Young

John Young

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 7:54 am

From Hart’s Army List 1890:

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Sadly no mention of any engagements.

JY
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Julian Whybra



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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 8:37 am

John
What was the source of the photo? Actually I've just realized it's a painting. Where's the painting?
Julian
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John Young

John Young

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 9:28 am

Julian,

I know you are addressing the query to the other John, but I know the answer.

The image appears in The Military History of Perthshire, 1899-1902.

I last saw a physical copy of it in Kenneth Griffith’s collection, it is available online in a digital form from the National Library of Scotland.

I was going suggest Methven Castle for a possible location for the painting, but the Smythe family left there in 1921.

Had I known of the connection with the Black Watch, I would have asked at the Museum when I visited it back in September.

JY
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyFri Nov 15, 2019 12:25 pm

Many thanks!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyMon Nov 18, 2019 11:07 pm

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Source Forgotten Heroes Zulu & Basuto Wars including Medal Roll 1877-8-9
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WeekendWarrior

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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyTue Nov 19, 2019 1:44 pm

Quotation of Captain Smythe, NNC. Published in The Western Advertiser on July 2, 1879.
A SURVIVOR OF ISANDULA.
Captain Smythe, of the Native Contingent, who was at the Battle of Isandula, and who since has escaped has been very ill, thus necessitating his return to England, stated that there could be no doubt, despite his excellent qualities and the general appreciation of him, that Col. Durnford was chiefly responsible for the terrible disaster, seeing that he rode away from the camp with his mounted men, not having made or suggested any defence of the camp. He, too, was of opinion that many of the difficulties in advancing had been brought about by the want of proper transport provisions, and, seeing that the season was now so advanced, he doubted if an end would speedily be put to hostilities. Captain Smythe regrets that we had not had to fight the Zulus first, instead of others of the Kaffir race. These latter could be easily dealt with, and thus, when the difficulty with Cetywayo arose, we thought that we could treat his army in the same way, with the result which was now so apparent to the country.
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Julian Whybra



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Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. EmptyTue Nov 19, 2019 3:11 pm

Perhaps this extract of part of the entry from England's sons 9th ed. p. 59 would help:

68.  Captain David Murray SMYTHE 1/1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent

(A) Brief description in Edinburgh Evening News, Report of an interview, 24th June 1879; (Ai) Daily Telegraph & Courier, 25th June 1879.  
(B) Brief description in The Western Advertiser, 2nd July 1879.
Mentioned as a survivor in The Pall Mall Gazette, 24th June, The Graphic, 28th June, and Times of Natal, 15th August 1879 [acknowledgements to Frederic Bomy]...
Escaped to Helpmekaar...  
Photograph of him as an old man in his obituary, The Dundee Courier, 11th February 1928 and of his portrait in Tullibardine, Marchioness of & Macdonald, Jane C.C., A Military History of Perthshire, 1899-1902, (Glasgow and Edinburgh, 1908), p. 107...
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent. Empty

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