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 Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.

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PostSubject: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:07 pm

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Dundee Courier, Saturday 11 February 1928.

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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smyth 1 / 1 NNC    Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:56 pm

From ' For God , Queen & Colony ' By Terry Sole .
Capt Smythe , D.M. Late 79th Regt , shortly after Isandlwana he returned to the UK . He was not present at Isandlwana .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:08 am

I take it, this is the same chap.

COLONEL DAVID MURRAY SMYTHE, THIRTEENTH OF BRACO AND SEVENTH OF METHVEN CASTLE. 
"The present owner of these estates was born on 17th November 1850; he served in the Cameron Highlanders and in the Zulu War 1878-1879 and commanded the 3rd Battalion of the Black Watch until 1897. Col. Smythe is Deputy-Lieutenant and Justice of the Peace for Perthshire; he married on 17th September 1898 Katherine, fourth daughter of William, third Lord Bagot. They had a daughter Barbara."
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:50 pm

littlehand, again, outstanding. xhosa
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:39 am

Thanks to all, but note that Sole does not say why he thinks Smythe was not at Isandhlwana. I know that the obituary does not mention it but then it mentions nothing about his other military experiences either.
Terry Sole is not someone I've had dealings with personally. If anyone has, can I suggest that you ask him his reasons for the remark. If he has definitive information I would very much like to know. If no-one has, let me know and I'll contact him via his publisher.
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:23 am

Crealock created a troops return, undated but appro January 1879 in which he shows Captain Barton as being in charge of 1/1 3/1 stationed at Kranskop. If anyone has access to this document it could place Smyth.

There is also a news paper report dated 17th January 1879 which reports two companies of the 1st battalion and the mounted contingent moving up to Helpmakaar under Major Bengough, Captains Russell RA, Nourse Henderson and Barton.
No mention of Captain Smyth.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smythe 1/1st Regt NNC    Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:38 am

Hi Julian .
I'm not home to check but would / did D.M.Smythe rate a mention in Paul Thompson's '' Black Soldiers Of The Queen '' ?
I dont know Terry Sole , but its unfortunate he never left his reasoning in his book , as to why he thought Smythe wasnt at Isandlwana . You need to study mo 
Cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:57 pm

springbok
That would indeed be important depending on its actual date pre- or post-Isandhlwana. I don't have this doc.
The newspaper report you quote doesn't mention Capt. Shepstone either. Honestly though, I wouldn't expect it to have mentioned a Captain with an unassigned role.
90th
Thompson doesn't mention him. You write of Terry Sole in the past tense. I take it he's still alive??
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PostSubject: Capt David Murray Smithe    Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:57 pm

Hi Julian.
Sorry about that ! . As far as I know Terry Sole is still with us . Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:43 pm

Julian
Im trying to track the document down.
Your quite right, Shepstone isn't mentioned in the article, but his presence is corroborated many times. The point Im trying to get across is that after LGO 209 of the 28th November 1878, Smyth becomes the invisible man. With the exception of the obituary and one news paper report there is nothing at all that places him in Zulu land. One can argue as you have that there is no evidence placing him else where but that could equally apply to my great great granddad who went for a walk one day and didn't come back. Very Happy  But as far as Im aware all the officers, except for Barton made statements or discussed the battle at some point, and Im pretty sure at one point Barton did make some comments in a minor way.
The points against do seem to be accumulating though.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:41 pm

Point understood. All I'm saying is that the last we heard of Smythe was his inclusion on a survivors list in a newspaper. There must have been something that prompted that inclusion. I'm fully aware that he might not have been at Isandhlwana and will be happy either way it goes. The truth is what's important and I want England's Sons to be as accurate as possible.
I'll do some more digging of my own and see what I can come up with.
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:15 pm

Hi Julian
Hopefully I shall have a copy of the Crealock Return over the weekend, it is pre iSandlwana and was compiled at Sandrift early January. Chelmsford/Crealock arrived at Helmakaar on the 4th January so any audit by Crealock would have had to be done late December early January. Unfortunatly I don't have a record of when he arrived at Sandspruit/msinga.
Really is an absorbing topic.
One other point, the three battalions of the 1st Regiment where only re distributed/amalgamated when they got to Rorkes Drift so Smythe wouldn't have been an unattached or super numery whilst at Sand Spruit.

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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Springbok
Some years back I spoke to a descendant of Smythe's from a subsidiary line and he was under the impression that DM Smythe had been at Isandhlwana. DM Smythe had one daughter, Barbara, and I don't believe she ever married. The main line of the current family comes from DM's brother (Charles John Smythe the onetime prime minister of Natal) and that family still lives in Natal.
I reckon that's a family a South African could track down with ease to ask a few polite questions about their ancestor.
Anyone up for that job??
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:46 pm

I've e-mailed Terry Sole and am waiting for a reply.
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Charles John Smythe had several children including:

Rowan whose son David Montrose who had two sons both living in Natal.

Edric Murray whose first son John Murray had Donovan born 1945 living in Natal
and whose second son Athol had a daughter Cynthia Evelyn born 1952 living in Ladysmith (no record of her having married).

That should help you, Watson!
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:10 pm

Elementary dear sir.
A branch of the family from his grandfather settled in Natal. The younger David fought at the siege of Ladysmith, Charles was the first South African Victoria Cross winner. Young David by the way was a trooper in the Natal Carbineers.
David Murray himself is really the landed gentry, long line going back, traceable, to the 1600's.
But in all the Peerage articles, Burks, Whos who etc not a mention of any war decorations.

A four pipe problem Im anticipating.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:06 pm

That's all true but the branch which is closest to David Murray S. is in Natal and if anyone's going to have the gen on him it'll be them.  They'll know one way or the other.  They might even be in touch with daughter Barbara (whose children could still be alive).
It's pronounced 'Smith', if you didn't already know.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: The Murray brothers    Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:18 am

Hi All,
The Murray brothers were students at Glenwood High School, Durban in the '60's and resided in one of the southern Durban suburbs.

regards,

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:32 am

Hi Julian
The Status report from Crealock is a damp squib Im afraid, it only shows the regimental distribution in Natal not the individuals. There are a couple of other leads Im following.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:21 am

Julian
Ok prepared to concede that D M Smythe was at isandlwana.
An essay by Graham Alexander provided the key.
Norris Newman: In Zululand with the British throughout the war of 1879.
23rd January Rorkes Drift.
'Colonel Russell was then sent on, with a mounted escort, in order to see if the road was open to Helpmakaar, and to learn what had been and was done there. During his absence, however, three officers arrived, belonging to the 1st NNC under Major Bengough (part of what had been Colonel Durnfords force), They had ridden from Helpmakaar, and found the roads open and clear of the enemy."
The four surviving officers from the 1st were Nourse, Stafford, Erskine and ? Erskine was injured (Symons accounts for his presence at Helpmakaar) so the third must have been Smythe, he's the only one unaccounted for.

Interesting exercise
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:14 am

Since yesterday I've been e-mailed by a well-known AZW researcher reminding me that I had been introduced to one of Smythe's descendants a few years ago who confirmed DM's presence at Isandhlwana. I did mention this earlier in the thread but because oral tradition is not necessarily regarded as hard evidence it was worth persisting with this to see if any 'paper' evidence survives within the family. As it turns out, springbok has done a brilliant bit of digging himself - something I wasn't aware of - congrats!
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:49 pm

Springbok. On the web link I posted " The Defense of "Helpmekaar" Captain D. Smythe. Natal Native Contgt. Was counted in as one of the survivors who made it to helpmarker. Was there some doubt with that? 
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PostSubject: Re: Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.   Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:56 pm

LH
Yes but only from me. Julian, Keith Smith, Ian Knight all said he was at isandlwana. I couldn't find anything that actually placed him in Zulu land until the Essay and I checked back with the dates and numbers. It was just a bug I had up my A**s as our American cousins say. So glad its out of the way and the Good David Murray Smythe can RIP.

Cheers
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