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 What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?

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free1954



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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptySun Apr 28, 2013 12:24 pm

did the zulus put them to good use afterwards? where any of them ever recovered and put on display?
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24th

24th

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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptySun Apr 28, 2013 1:20 pm

It was thought, that the rifles captured at Isandlwana were used by the Zulus against the British, but when you take into consideration the Impi that attacked RD hadn't taken part in the attack on Isandlwana. Apart from chasing down some of those who had escaped, along the trail, it is possible that the odd rifle was picked up, and perhaps a few rounds here at threre, but their understanding of the MH sights wasn't great, at the sights were probaly set to at 100 yards or lower, when you take into account the British would have been adjusting the sights to accomodate the on coming Zulus at Isandlwana.

But we can say that some of the rifles were used by the Zulu at Kambula....
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free1954



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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptySun Apr 28, 2013 6:57 pm

thank you sir for the reply. i've read elsewhere since i posted that some were recovered.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptySun Apr 28, 2013 10:37 pm

Recover at Kambula, some at Ulundi, and others found at various homesteads in Zulu Land..
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free1954



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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyMon Apr 29, 2013 1:21 am

thank you sir for taking time to reply. after i posted i found a lot of good info in similar topics on the bottom of the page. are there any pictures of recovered rifles online to view?
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90th

90th

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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: What became of the rifles captured at Isandlwana    What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyMon Apr 29, 2013 11:27 am

Hi free1954.
I cant recall ever seeing any photos of recovered Martini - Henry's from Khambula or Ulundi , but I have read where they were indeed recovered . Possibly use the search box on the Left hand side , type in battle of Khambula , I think I may have posted many months ago the actual number that was recovered , 16 or 9 seem to strike a cord , but I may be wrong ! . Salute
90th.
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tasker224

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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyMon Apr 29, 2013 3:59 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
Recover at Kambula, some at Ulundi, and others found at various homesteads in Zulu Land..

scratch
Source of information?
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tasker224

tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyMon Apr 29, 2013 4:03 pm

free1954 wrote:
did the zulus put them to good use afterwards? where any of them ever recovered and put on display?

There were ammo shortages at iSandlwana, and any MHs that were captured by Zulus here would most likely have been kept as souvenirs, not weapons. No casualties at RD were from MH fire.

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t729-no-martini-henry-rifles-found-among-the-zulu-dead-at-rorkes-drift?highlight=martini+drift

Member Neil Aspinshaw's website is also worth a look:

http://www.martinihenry.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=61_59
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free1954



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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyMon Apr 29, 2013 10:25 pm

yes sir that ZULUNEIL has a great site, i can't recomend it highly enough. but there are a lot of good guys you see all over the web in regards to victorian wars weapons.
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90th

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PostSubject: What beame of the rifles captured at Isandlwana    What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyTue Apr 30, 2013 7:34 am

Hi Tasker .
There may well have been some shortage of ammo in the way that it was delivered or received during the battle at Isandlwana, but you can be fairly certain that the captured rifles would have had plenty of ammo , as there was hundreds of thousands of rounds taken when the camp fell , I doubt very much that the zulu went into souvenir only mode . Very Happy
90th.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyTue Apr 30, 2013 5:45 pm

I hear what you're saying 90th, but isn't there a distinct lack of evidence to show that the Zulus put these captured weapons "to good use?"
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyTue Apr 30, 2013 7:25 pm

Battle Of Kambula...

Quote :
Wood ordered Major Hackett of the 90th to take 2 companies to the edge of the hill and fire down into the Zulus assembling in the valley below. This enterprise had to be abandoned in the face of heavy Zulu fire, using Martini Henry rifles captured at Isandlwana, from the cattle laager and a hill to the West of the camp, although the Zulu left horn was temporarily halted. Hackett was blinded and one of his subalterns mortally injured.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyTue Apr 30, 2013 7:32 pm

Extract from Colour Sgt Bournes Account!!!!

"The Zulus had collected the rifles from the men who they had killed at Isandhlwana, and had captured the ammunition from the mules which had stampeded and threw their loads; so our own arms where used against us. In fact, this was the cause of every one of our casualties, killed and wounded, and we should have suffered many more if the enemy had known how to use a rifle. There was hardly a man even wounded by an assegais - their principle weapon".

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90th

90th

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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: What became of the rifles captured at Isandlwana    What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyWed May 01, 2013 3:07 am

Dave I seem to remember the forum had a rather lengthy debate on whether Clr Sgt Bourne got it wrong , in referring to the MH'S being used upon RD , as those coming from the dead at RD , from memory there wasnt any picked up after the battle , and we know that the reserve zulu force was the one which attacked RD , not the Impi which took part in the Isandlwana massacre ! , so therefore the MH'S engaged at RD , if at all would be very , very minimal . Also Bourne was recounting the story 50 yrs after the event . Time does fade memories , you may not be old enough to realise it as yet ! .
90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: What became of the rifles captured at Isandlwana    What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyWed May 01, 2013 3:11 am

Hi Tasker .
'' Good Use '' needs more defining , they werent proficient in the use of the MH , but it seems they caused some problem at times .
If they were proficient in the use of the MH then things may have become a little more hotter on occasion ! Shocked
Cheers 90th.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyWed May 01, 2013 11:46 am

90th wrote:
Dave I seem to remember the forum had a rather lengthy debate on whether Clr Sgt Bourne got it wrong , in referring to the MH'S being used upon RD , as those coming from the dead at RD , from memory there wasnt any picked up after the battle , and we know that the reserve zulu force was the one which attacked RD , not the Impi which took part in the Isandlwana massacre ! , so therefore the MH'S engaged at RD , if at all would be very , very minimal . Also Bourne was recounting the story 50 yrs after the event . Time does fade memories , you may not be old enough to realise it as yet ! .
90th.

Here is the thread on the debate re MHs at RD.
http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t729p25-no-martini-henry-rifles-found-among-the-zulu-dead-at-rorkes-drift?highlight=rorke+s+drift
Dave took part in this debate as did Neil Aspinshaw. Neil disputes Bourne's account and outlines his reasons and I would tend to go with Neil on this one. In short, MHs were not used at RD.
As for the later battles of the AZW, such as Khamuba, it is far more plausible that by then, the Zulus may have worked out by then how to put the MHs to "good effect."
Dave, what is the source of your account from above? Salute
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyWed May 01, 2013 9:00 pm

I don't think it's a case of if we go with Bournes a count or not, I don't think we have the right to contradict Col Sgt Bourne. He was there, and he was a man of sober character. There no primary source accounts to say the Zulus wasn't using MH rifles from Isandlwana. Again its down to indivual choice... Not fact!
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90th

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PostSubject: What became of the Rifles captured at Isandlwana   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:01 am

Ulundi we do know for a fact that it was the reserve force from Isandlwana that fought at RD , therefore they wouldnt have had access
to the MH'S that were up for grabs at Isandlawana because they didnt take part in the battle . Possible that they may have picked up one or two here and there , but they may have been dumped by troops once their ammo ran out , and with the possibility of no rounds to fire , it would be pointless one would think to burden one's self with the heavy and unweildly weapon ! .
90th Salute
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What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? Empty
PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:53 am

Hi All

The best of the case that there is one who is able to say how many firearms exactly type by type , who were lost!

1/ The British had to know the exact number of firearms type by type there had at Isandhlawana or in total in the column n° 3 and n° 2 ! Well no ... Same for ammo !

2/ The British had to know the exact number of firearms type by type, brought by survivors ! Well no ... Same for ammo !


3/Les British had to know the exact number of firearms type by type useless , as broken, ect ... or forgotten by the Zulu ... seen by them during their first return to the battlefield ! Well no ... Same for ammo !


To believe that were not accounted for, at least, before a campaign ... Same for ammo !

In some armies they would even numbered codpieces buttons !

Cheers

Pascal
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free1954



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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyFri May 03, 2013 9:56 am

thank you gentleman for your informative replies.
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PostSubject: Re: What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana?   What became of the rifles captured at isandlwana? EmptyFri May 03, 2013 10:43 am

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