WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Farnborough Hill
Today at 4:18 pm by rusteze

» Captain Walter Stafford NNC medals
Today at 4:04 am by 90th

» Gerald French, liar or not?
Yesterday at 2:24 pm by Frank Allewell

» A bit more fun research!
Yesterday at 11:22 am by rusteze

» Trooper H. Boik (NMP) and Dartnell patrol Isandlwana, 22 January 1879
Yesterday at 8:55 am by whizz-bang

» Norris-Newman
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:52 pm by Kenny

» Some fun research
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am by Frank Allewell

» Isipezi Hill
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 pm by ALLENG

» Zulu shield question
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:03 am by SRB1965

» Buyer beware!..
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:47 pm by xhosa2000

» Colonel Farquhar Glennie
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:48 pm by SRB1965

» A number of SAGS for Sale at C Dixons
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:38 pm by xhosa2000

» Zulu Arts & Crafts Event.
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:50 pm by 24th foot

» Sir Henry Evelyn Wood VC, GCB, GCMG
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:37 pm by xhosa2000

» Captain Walter Stafford, 1st Natal Native Contingent,
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:18 pm by ADMIN

Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards. killed at Hlobane
[Mac & Shad] Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards --killed at Hlobane (Mac and Shad) (Isandula Collection)
Rob Caskie at a Showcase Event 2014
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
90th
 
xhosa2000
 
Frank Allewell
 
rusteze
 
John Young
 
Tee
 
SRB1965
 
24th foot
 
ALLENG
 
Kenny
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 General Staff Button

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: General Staff Button   Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:52 pm

hi all.

can anyone post a picture of what the general staff button would look like in near mint condition, as worn by sgt keane. i cant really make his out , due to being in the ground for 130 years !!. thanks in advance.

cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
John

avatar

Posts : 2528
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 55
Location : UK

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:38 pm

90th I think there is a photo on the RDVC.. Web-site under the bones topic.
Posted by Coll.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:49 am

90th. I have a book on Military badges ect. I will have alook when I get a bit later.. You never know it just might be in there
Back to top Go down
24th

avatar

Posts : 1838
Join date : 2009-03-25

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:33 pm

90th

Victorian Rifles Regiment Button

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The same if not similar. To the one found with remains.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:55 am

90th Sorry mate, no luck with a photo of the Button.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: gen staff button   Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:23 am

hi littlehand.

thanks for searching the book, lets keep digging and see what turns up.

cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3578
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:20 pm

Moved to General dicussion area.
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
24th

avatar

Posts : 1838
Join date : 2009-03-25

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:22 pm

Button no 7 however there is still no relevant information

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The one we are looking for is there but it just states Victorian military button.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
2nd Row from bottom, 2nd Button from the left

Victorian Rifles Regiment Button
Diam 24mm, domed
Description: Military ‘Victoria Rifles’ Button. Manufactured by Smith and Wright in Birmingham, Believed 1850-1880. Button is complete with loop. The shape is domed (about 10mm thick).
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:52 pm

Was this button just more really available at the time? We have some saying is the GSC. Others the Victorian Rifles, and now some saying the Royal Engineers.

To me, the Buttons we have be shown, are identical in everyway to the one found with the remains.
Back to top Go down
old historian2

avatar

Posts : 1097
Join date : 2009-01-14
Location : East London

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:32 pm

I have been looking, and there is really no information on the GSC during the Zulu War. The fact the Button shows V.R would suggest that it is the Victorian Rifles.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: gen staff button   Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:33 am

hi oh2.
The VR CYPHER on the button from the gen staff corps, stands for VICTORIA REGINA, nothing to do with VICTORIAN RIFLES.
hope this helps.

cheers90th.


Last edited by 90th on Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3578
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:36 pm

I have received some information that’s proves that the Button found with the remains at Isandlwana was NOT Royal Engineers.

This is why.
Royal Engineer Department 1837-1855 - there is no such thing as the Royal Engineer Department between those years. 1813 - 1856 the unit was The Corps of Royal Sappers & Miners. In 1856 to the present day they are the Corps of Royal Engineers.

From 1856 until 1901 Royal Engineers Button.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Source: Zulu Historian.
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:07 pm

OK Now we are getting somewhere. its not the Royal Engineers Button. Thats been proven.
Back to top Go down
sas1

avatar

Posts : 628
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 39

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:32 am

Just out of interest. How many royal engineers were present during the Battle of Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: engineers at isandlwana.   Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:37 pm

hi sas1

According to " CASUALTY ROLL FOR THE ZULU AND BASUTO WARS SOUTH AFRICA 1877-79, by I.T.TAVENDER
5TH COMP R.ENGINEERS

CORP. GAMBLE. W.

SAPPERS.

9132. CUTHBERT.H
13805. MCLAREN.J
12812. WHEATLEY. M

The only actual royal engineers present ,the four were all killed at isandlwana, i think they all left rorkes drift in the morning with chard
when he went to isandlwana to clarify his orders, he let them stay , he returned to rorkes drift, it played on his mind after the battle that
they were killed. Also lets not forget DURNFORD as he was in the engineers. John young"s ' THEY FELL LIKE STONES " also lists the
same people.
cheers 90th
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:07 pm

Hi 90th in Zulu Victory it states that when Alan Gardner rode back to Isandlwana he was accompanied by Lieutenant McDougall of the Royal Engineers and Lieutenants Dyer and Griffiths 2/24th
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:27 pm

Drummerboy. You’re a very inspirational young man. Extraordinary to find a youngster of your age walking his way through the a variety of discussions with such buoyancy. Keep it up.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:54 pm

Thanks i am really enjoying the forum i have read Zulu rising, The herosim and tragady of the zulu war 1879, Rorkes drift, and my favorite How can men die better but can you recomend anything else????
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:11 pm

"History of the Zulu War and Its Origin By Frances E. Colenso, Edward Durnford" Wink
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: General Staff Button   Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:08 am

Hi Drummerboy14.

This is an excellent book on the Eshowe Campaign ( Pearson ) .

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

You may find it cheaper with a more thorough search but these prices are good in any case .
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9271
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: General Staff Button   Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:50 pm

Hi All.
Some thoughts on the Button Issue kindly sent to me from a friend .

[url=The identification of the button as belonging to the Corps of General Staff is important because Colour-Sergeant M.C. Keane (on the staff of No. 3 Column) was the only man killed at Isandlwana belonging to this unit, and at the time the buttons and remains were found the press were keen (sorry!) to make the connection. Obviously, however, this identification becomes invalid if more than one man at Isandlwana might have worn that type of button. If three or four men might possibly have been wearing that type of button on the day, for example, the remains could be any one of them. This site - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - identifies the button as both Staff and 'Department of Engineers'. Now as has been pointed out, it's not entirely clear what is referred to by the designation 'Department of Engineers', and you certainly can't believe everything you read on the internet (sorry again!) but this is clearly a well-informed site and one would need to be sure that it is wrong in this respect, and that this type of button was never worn by the Engineers in any capacity, to rule out the remains as being Engineer casualties. The fact that it was not a current issue button is neither here nor there as quite a lot of obselete badges and equipment were probably in the camp that day. While Chard's Engineers had only recently arrived in Africa, and probably - only probably! - had the latest issue kit, we know for example that Col. Harness of N/5 Battery had specifically chosen not to issue new uniforms to his men while they were on the Eastern Cape Frontier because they would only get worn out in the bush. Over the years numbers of odd buttons have turned up on the battlefield, including American ones and a Metropolitan Police one - the most obvious explanation is simply 'make do and mend', and that odd bits of kit - and buttons - were pressed into service after the notoriously difficult conditions in the field had taken there toll. There was also a significant degree of recycling of obselete uniforms, notably amongs the auxiliary units. Some of the NNC were issued old uniforms, and the Natal Native Pioneers certainly were. It's impossible to say with any certainty what buttons were on their jackets - was this type of button worn simply because it was on some old jackets that were available to reissue? So there is at least the possibility that this type of button might have been worn by someone other than Col. Sgt. Keane which creates a significant margin of doubt when this is the only means used to identify him. On a seperate but connected issue, this single button was the apparently the only identifiable piece of uniform found with the remains. Generally, if a body is buried in uniform more than one metal item survives - several buttons, a collar badge or whatever. When this occurs it obviously makes identification more reliable. It is still possible that the button might be connected directly to the remains and that for some reason other insignia has been lost - perhaps, for example, the Zulus removed the jacket on the day, and one button fell off in the process, and stayed near the body. Or over the years the other buttons and insignia might have been exposed by the elements and either corroded or picked up by some passer-by. But, given the varying natures of the burials at Isandlwana it is also possible that the button is not directly connected to this set of human remains at all. A solitary button could have been torn off a fugitive during the flight or, more likely - especially if the burial was undertaken sometime after the battle (remember that at one point in 1880 troops 'cleaning up' the site walked over it collecting exposed bones and remains together in sacks) - it could have been 'scooped up' with the remains from an area nearby, and might not be directly connected to the body at all. It might even conceivably belong to some other body not yet discovered. The point is simply that at this stage it is not possible to say with 100% certainty that only the General Staff were wearing that button on the day, and equally that that single button was on the man when he was killed. So it remains a significant leap of faith to identify the remains as definately those of Col. Sgt. Keane]The identification of the button as belonging to the Corps of General Staff is important because Colour-Sergeant M.C. Keane (on the staff of No. 3 Column) was the only man killed at Isandlwana belonging to this unit, and at the time the buttons and remains were found the press were keen (sorry!) to make the connection. Obviously, however, this identification becomes invalid if more than one man at Isandlwana might have worn that type of button. If three or four men might possibly have been wearing that type of button on the day, for example, the remains could be any one of them. This site - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - identifies the button as both Staff and 'Department of Engineers'. Now as has been pointed out, it's not entirely clear what is referred to by the designation 'Department of Engineers', and you certainly can't believe everything you read on the internet (sorry again!) but this is clearly a well-informed site and one would need to be sure that it is wrong in this respect, and that this type of button was never worn by the Engineers in any capacity, to rule out the remains as being Engineer casualties. The fact that it was not a current issue button is neither here nor there as quite a lot of obselete badges and equipment were probably in the camp that day. While Chard's Engineers had only recently arrived in Africa, and probably - only probably! - had the latest issue kit, we know for example that Col. Harness of N/5 Battery had specifically chosen not to issue new uniforms to his men while they were on the Eastern Cape Frontier because they would only get worn out in the bush. Over the years numbers of odd buttons have turned up on the battlefield, including American ones and a Metropolitan Police one - the most obvious explanation is simply 'make do and mend', and that odd bits of kit - and buttons - were pressed into service after the notoriously difficult conditions in the field had taken there toll. There was also a significant degree of recycling of obselete uniforms, notably amongs the auxiliary units. Some of the NNC were issued old uniforms, and the Natal Native Pioneers certainly were. It's impossible to say with any certainty what buttons were on their jackets - was this type of button worn simply because it was on some old jackets that were available to reissue? So there is at least the possibility that this type of button might have been worn by someone other than Col. Sgt. Keane which creates a significant margin of doubt when this is the only means used to identify him. On a seperate but connected issue, this single button was the apparently the only identifiable piece of uniform found with the remains. Generally, if a body is buried in uniform more than one metal item survives - several buttons, a collar badge or whatever. When this occurs it obviously makes identification more reliable. It is still possible that the button might be connected directly to the remains and that for some reason other insignia has been lost - perhaps, for example, the Zulus removed the jacket on the day, and one button fell off in the process, and stayed near the body. Or over the years the other buttons and insignia might have been exposed by the elements and either corroded or picked up by some passer-by. But, given the varying natures of the burials at Isandlwana it is also possible that the button is not directly connected to this set of human remains at all. A solitary button could have been torn off a fugitive during the flight or, more likely - especially if the burial was undertaken sometime after the battle (remember that at one point in 1880 troops 'cleaning up' the site walked over it collecting exposed bones and remains together in sacks) - it could have been 'scooped up' with the remains from an area nearby, and might not be directly connected to the body at all. It might even conceivably belong to some other body not yet discovered. The point is simply that at this stage it is not possible to say with 100% certainty that only the General Staff were wearing that button on the day, and equally that that single button was on the man when he was killed. So it remains a significant leap of faith to identify the remains as definately those of Col. Sgt. Keane[/url]

cheers 90th. Idea
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1905
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:00 pm

Thanks Elizabeth and 90th those are definatly going on the christmas list
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: General Staff Button   

Back to top Go down
 
General Staff Button
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: