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I can’t understand it, I left a thousand men here” Lord Chelmsford, returning to Isandlwana following the battle.
 
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 Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"

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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 pm

Sj. It's seems your post has caught the eye of someone on the Victoria War forum. I think it will help with your crusade! There's even a nice photo

http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=8390

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Ray63



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:57 pm

From the e-book

"NORRIS-NEWMAN, Lt-Col. Charles  L. W. M. (TiKXTSix), F.K.G.S. ; In-telligence Officer, Imperial Russian Service ; b. Aug. 22, 1852, at Elving-
ton Hall, Yorkshire, s. of late C. Sherwood Newman and Countess de Rosa Y. Robyns ; m. 1st, 1874, Anne Falkner, of Farnham ; 2nd, 1900,
Ethel Finch. Kduc. : Sherborne Liibeck ; Harrow. Educated for army ; left for France and went through siege of Paris, 1870-71, being decorated by M a r e c h a 1 Trochu ; served with Don Carlos in Spain and afterwards with General Gordon in Egypt ; in South Africa, 1877 ; Zululand Campaign, 1879-80 ; present at Isandlwhana, Ginginhlou, relief of Etshowe Ulundi ; first Transvaal war 1880-81 ; Basuto land service, 1882; Madagascar with Gen. Willoughby ; Zanzibar and Central Africa, 1884-91 ; in Matabeleland, 1894 - 98 ; Intelligence Officer, Rhodesia Horse ; Staff officer to Acting Administrator through native war, 1896 : has been special war correspondent for the " Times," " Pall Mall
Gazette," "Standard" and "Daily Mail " ; left for the East in 1900 ; travelled in Ceylon, Straits, China, Japan and Philippines ; appointed English
instructor, Russian Naval Staff, Port Arthur, 1902 ; witnessed first naval attacks of Japanese, Feb. 8, 1904 ; travelled through Manchuria with Russians as special correspondent ; appointed to bring out first Russian Journal in Far East The China Review," which stilt ; has been a constant con tributor to English Magazines and  Periodicals; is P.P.G.S.W. of  Freemasons, D.C. Detor&tfont ."  Madagascar 1st class ; Dannebrog 3rd class ; French Medal for Valour Egyptian Medal ; Khedive's bronze star ; South African Medal with clasp ; Rhodesian Medal. Publication* : "In Zululand with the British " ; " With the Boers in the Transvaal " ; " The Basuto and their Country" ; " South African Stories"; " Matabeleland." Recreations: Riding, shooting, philately. Address: Tientsin, North China ; Royal Geographical Society, London ; 12,
Perham Road, West Kensington, London."
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24th



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:08 am

Mr Walkers a member of that forum!
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:45 pm

It's Simon, please :-)

And, yes, I've thrown the net wide on this one - prompted by a question that aroused my curiosity on a TMP board.

The biography above is the best/only one that seems to be available (from "Who's Who in the Far East 1906-07) but its sources and accuracy are unclear - seems "Noggs" was a bit of a cad who embellished his CV shamelessly!

I'm sure that there must be more to be found, but it'll be in primary documents and sources rather than the more readily available material.
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:27 pm

I assume that F.K.G.S. should be F.R.G.S. - their archives at Kensington Gore may hold something.
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:41 am

I've contacted the RGS, as well as the Danish Embassy (regarding his claim to have been a member of the Danneborg order) and Reuters, to see if they have anything on him.

I wonder what Noggs was up to in South Africa between 1875 and 1879, when he suddenly pops back into view as 'special correspondent' as we know.
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wentworth



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Interesting to note, Charles Henry Newman-Norris served with the Rifle Brigade during the Great War. He died on the 30th of July 1916. He was the son of Henry Sherwood and Lavinia Newman-Norris. His Commonwealth War Graves record is of interest as it states that He resigned a position in TIENTSIN to join up; he was refused five times?????
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:57 pm

Now that IS interesting - likely to be a nephew (there's already been a suggestion that the Newman family 'adopted' the Norris name for inheritance purposes, which would explain the difference in name) but I wonder how he ended up in Tientsin with dissolute old Uncle Charles - how could we uncover the reasons for his being repeatedly turned down?
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:17 pm

Could this be referring to our Mr Newman!

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Source:The Correspondence of G.E. Morrison: 1895-1912. 1
 By George Ernest Morrison

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s1Quxl-svwgC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=papers+past+norris+newman&source=bl&ots=QKeBoIHcHn&sig=Blky0SFepl3quxUrz_xmUc54nkk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YxkEUrvBMMPP0AXgioGgDQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=papers%20past%20norris%20newman&f=false
Page 299
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:43 pm

That's our man - up to his eyes in debt, having embezzled civil funds in Aliwal, being funded by the Russians to foment ant-Japanese sentiment amongst the Chinese and outraging polite expat society in Tientsin, all in a couple of paragraphs!
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:52 pm

Is there anything else you need, or does that answer your question.
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:22 pm

Littlehand,

I'd love to see a biography of this increasingly interesting character, who makes Harry Flashman look like a paragon of virtue so far - there's so much still to be uncovered about him: so far, it looks like he fled England in 1875 (aged 23) after being sued and bankrupted, he then suddenly pops up as a war correspondent in 1879 (so what did he do in the intervening period - he claims to have been with Gordon in the Sudan?), various escapades in Basutoland and Mashonaland before disappearing again to the Far East (after some unfortunate misunderstanding about municipal funds in South Africa), where he's in the employ of the Ruskies, back in debt and consorting with loose women. Somewhere along the line his nephew joins him in China, and eventually falls in Flanders in 1916.

So, the original question has unearthed even more questions that even I imagined it would!
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:19 pm

Glad you said that, gives me something to get me teeth into. By the way, interesting discussion you have started Salute 
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:48 pm

Delighted to hear it Littlehand, and thanks! There's various bits of intelligence spread across 3 forums so far (this one, TMP and Victorian Wars). Feel free to drop me a line direct if anything needs clarification on what we have discovered so far.

Are there any South African based members of the Forum who could investigate the Bulawayo connection (including how his stepson ended up as a farmer there), and the financial irregularities in Aliwal North that, I suspect, prompted his departure to the Far East c 1900?

BTW, where "Up North" are you based? I recently moved "Up North" as well - just outside Sheffield, to be precise.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:02 pm

I was up north, when I first join, now in the midlands. Someone in-doors wanted to be nearer her familey: Rolling Eyes 

You will have to wait for the Cricket to ends before our Coloinal cousins get involved.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:17 pm

This could hold some information on Newman.

http://eprints.ru.ac.za/2343/1/HORN-MA-TR87-18.pdf
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wentworth



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:38 pm

Re: Charles Henry Newman-Norris, Rifle Brigade, whether this is the same man or not, but a Charles H.Norris-Newman leaves these shores aboard the S.S. Pembrokeshire on the 16th April 1910 bound for Shanghai. "Confusing is'nt it Dutchy."
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:03 am

So that's young Charles, on his way to meet up with Uncle Chas. in Tientsin. There are no "Norris-Newman"s or "Newman-Norris"s to be found in a quick search of the 1901 and earlier census records, though "Lavinia Newman" (presumably his mother, and more easily found than his father) can be found in Fulham and Southwark.

Do we have any professional researchers/genealogists amongst our number who would be prepared to do a bit of work on this? I think the Elvington local history group is already on the case for me!
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Keithchr



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:03 am

Hi - I am an amateur genealogist. I hope to help you in your quest for the truth about Noggs.
Here are copies of his two marriage certificates. One in Streatham, one in Japan
Let me know if you need more information...


Cheers

Keith

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Keith welcome to the forum.. Stick around I'm very sure your skills will be called upon many times, if you have the time. We have a lot of unsolved issues, in the " DId they or Didn't they take part in the Zulu War of 1879"
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Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"

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