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Lord Chelmsford. I regret to report a very disastrous engagement which took place on the morning of 22nd January between the armies of the Zulu king Cetshwayo and our own No. 3 Column consisting of a total of 1500 men, officers and other ranks.
 
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 Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"

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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 2 Aug 2013 - 21:16

Sj. It's seems your post has caught the eye of someone on the Victoria War forum. I think it will help with your crusade! There's even a nice photo

http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=8390

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Ray63



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 2 Aug 2013 - 21:57

From the e-book

"NORRIS-NEWMAN, Lt-Col. Charles  L. W. M. (TiKXTSix), F.K.G.S. ; In-telligence Officer, Imperial Russian Service ; b. Aug. 22, 1852, at Elving-
ton Hall, Yorkshire, s. of late C. Sherwood Newman and Countess de Rosa Y. Robyns ; m. 1st, 1874, Anne Falkner, of Farnham ; 2nd, 1900,
Ethel Finch. Kduc. : Sherborne Liibeck ; Harrow. Educated for army ; left for France and went through siege of Paris, 1870-71, being decorated by M a r e c h a 1 Trochu ; served with Don Carlos in Spain and afterwards with General Gordon in Egypt ; in South Africa, 1877 ; Zululand Campaign, 1879-80 ; present at Isandlwhana, Ginginhlou, relief of Etshowe Ulundi ; first Transvaal war 1880-81 ; Basuto land service, 1882; Madagascar with Gen. Willoughby ; Zanzibar and Central Africa, 1884-91 ; in Matabeleland, 1894 - 98 ; Intelligence Officer, Rhodesia Horse ; Staff officer to Acting Administrator through native war, 1896 : has been special war correspondent for the " Times," " Pall Mall
Gazette," "Standard" and "Daily Mail " ; left for the East in 1900 ; travelled in Ceylon, Straits, China, Japan and Philippines ; appointed English
instructor, Russian Naval Staff, Port Arthur, 1902 ; witnessed first naval attacks of Japanese, Feb. 8, 1904 ; travelled through Manchuria with Russians as special correspondent ; appointed to bring out first Russian Journal in Far East The China Review," which stilt ; has been a constant con tributor to English Magazines and  Periodicals; is P.P.G.S.W. of  Freemasons, D.C. Detor&tfont ."  Madagascar 1st class ; Dannebrog 3rd class ; French Medal for Valour Egyptian Medal ; Khedive's bronze star ; South African Medal with clasp ; Rhodesian Medal. Publication* : "In Zululand with the British " ; " With the Boers in the Transvaal " ; " The Basuto and their Country" ; " South African Stories"; " Matabeleland." Recreations: Riding, shooting, philately. Address: Tientsin, North China ; Royal Geographical Society, London ; 12,
Perham Road, West Kensington, London."
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24th



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 3 Aug 2013 - 11:08

Mr Walkers a member of that forum!
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue 6 Aug 2013 - 16:45

It's Simon, please :-)

And, yes, I've thrown the net wide on this one - prompted by a question that aroused my curiosity on a TMP board.

The biography above is the best/only one that seems to be available (from "Who's Who in the Far East 1906-07) but its sources and accuracy are unclear - seems "Noggs" was a bit of a cad who embellished his CV shamelessly!

I'm sure that there must be more to be found, but it'll be in primary documents and sources rather than the more readily available material.
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue 6 Aug 2013 - 17:27

I assume that F.K.G.S. should be F.R.G.S. - their archives at Kensington Gore may hold something.
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 9:41

I've contacted the RGS, as well as the Danish Embassy (regarding his claim to have been a member of the Danneborg order) and Reuters, to see if they have anything on him.

I wonder what Noggs was up to in South Africa between 1875 and 1879, when he suddenly pops back into view as 'special correspondent' as we know.
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wentworth



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 16:36

Interesting to note, Charles Henry Newman-Norris served with the Rifle Brigade during the Great War. He died on the 30th of July 1916. He was the son of Henry Sherwood and Lavinia Newman-Norris. His Commonwealth War Graves record is of interest as it states that He resigned a position in TIENTSIN to join up; he was refused five times?????
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 19:57

Now that IS interesting - likely to be a nephew (there's already been a suggestion that the Newman family 'adopted' the Norris name for inheritance purposes, which would explain the difference in name) but I wonder how he ended up in Tientsin with dissolute old Uncle Charles - how could we uncover the reasons for his being repeatedly turned down?
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Thu 8 Aug 2013 - 23:17

Could this be referring to our Mr Newman!

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Source:The Correspondence of G.E. Morrison: 1895-1912. 1
 By George Ernest Morrison

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s1Quxl-svwgC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=papers+past+norris+newman&source=bl&ots=QKeBoIHcHn&sig=Blky0SFepl3quxUrz_xmUc54nkk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YxkEUrvBMMPP0AXgioGgDQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=papers%20past%20norris%20newman&f=false
Page 299
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 19:43

That's our man - up to his eyes in debt, having embezzled civil funds in Aliwal, being funded by the Russians to foment ant-Japanese sentiment amongst the Chinese and outraging polite expat society in Tientsin, all in a couple of paragraphs!
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 19:52

Is there anything else you need, or does that answer your question.
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 20:22

Littlehand,

I'd love to see a biography of this increasingly interesting character, who makes Harry Flashman look like a paragon of virtue so far - there's so much still to be uncovered about him: so far, it looks like he fled England in 1875 (aged 23) after being sued and bankrupted, he then suddenly pops up as a war correspondent in 1879 (so what did he do in the intervening period - he claims to have been with Gordon in the Sudan?), various escapades in Basutoland and Mashonaland before disappearing again to the Far East (after some unfortunate misunderstanding about municipal funds in South Africa), where he's in the employ of the Ruskies, back in debt and consorting with loose women. Somewhere along the line his nephew joins him in China, and eventually falls in Flanders in 1916.

So, the original question has unearthed even more questions that even I imagined it would!
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 22:19

Glad you said that, gives me something to get me teeth into. By the way, interesting discussion you have started Salute 
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 22:48

Delighted to hear it Littlehand, and thanks! There's various bits of intelligence spread across 3 forums so far (this one, TMP and Victorian Wars). Feel free to drop me a line direct if anything needs clarification on what we have discovered so far.

Are there any South African based members of the Forum who could investigate the Bulawayo connection (including how his stepson ended up as a farmer there), and the financial irregularities in Aliwal North that, I suspect, prompted his departure to the Far East c 1900?

BTW, where "Up North" are you based? I recently moved "Up North" as well - just outside Sheffield, to be precise.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 23:02

I was up north, when I first join, now in the midlands. Someone in-doors wanted to be nearer her familey: Rolling Eyes 

You will have to wait for the Cricket to ends before our Coloinal cousins get involved.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 23:17

This could hold some information on Newman.

http://eprints.ru.ac.za/2343/1/HORN-MA-TR87-18.pdf
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wentworth



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 23:38

Re: Charles Henry Newman-Norris, Rifle Brigade, whether this is the same man or not, but a Charles H.Norris-Newman leaves these shores aboard the S.S. Pembrokeshire on the 16th April 1910 bound for Shanghai. "Confusing is'nt it Dutchy."
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 10 Aug 2013 - 9:03

So that's young Charles, on his way to meet up with Uncle Chas. in Tientsin. There are no "Norris-Newman"s or "Newman-Norris"s to be found in a quick search of the 1901 and earlier census records, though "Lavinia Newman" (presumably his mother, and more easily found than his father) can be found in Fulham and Southwark.

Do we have any professional researchers/genealogists amongst our number who would be prepared to do a bit of work on this? I think the Elvington local history group is already on the case for me!
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Keithchr



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue 22 Oct 2013 - 0:03

Hi - I am an amateur genealogist. I hope to help you in your quest for the truth about Noggs.
Here are copies of his two marriage certificates. One in Streatham, one in Japan
Let me know if you need more information...


Cheers

Keith

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Tue 22 Oct 2013 - 19:39

Keith welcome to the forum.. Stick around I'm very sure your skills will be called upon many times, if you have the time. We have a lot of unsolved issues, in the " DId they or Didn't they take part in the Zulu War of 1879"
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Wed 23 Oct 2013 - 21:57

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Keith welcome to the forum.. Stick around I'm very sure your skills will be called upon many times, if you have the time. We have a lot of unsolved issues, in the " DId they or Didn't they take part in the Zulu War of 1879"
agree
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sjwalker51



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 18:38

Keith,

Many thanks for a couple of additional nuggets in our search for the elusive Noggs - real life and my lack of research experience has got in the way of any real progress since my last post although contact with the Danish embassy suggests that he was never awarded the Danneborg medal that he claimed, and I've received a copy of a letter from the Reuters agent in Bulawayo to his boss in South Africa complaining bitterly about what a difficult and obstructive character he is, which all seems to fit the character that is emerging.

I've also been struck by the similarity of his "Who's Who in the Far East" entry to the real-life story of that other famous war correspondent, Archibald Forbes. I suspect that Noggs lifted much of it to embellish his own, rather less illustrious career.

I doubt that we'll ever be lucky enough to track down a living descendant who happens to have an old suitcase full of Noggs' diaries and personal papers but hope springs eternal!
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Ulundi



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 22:14

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Ulundi



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 22:21

Just how accurate was Newman's account of Isandlawan.
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impi



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Fri 25 Oct 2013 - 23:04

As accurate as can be!

LH posted an artical sometime back, can't remember where! But the sights Newman saw at Isandlwana had a dramatic effect on him. Or something like that. Perhaps LH can point you to the document in-question.
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90th



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PostSubject: Charles L W C Norris - Newman   Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 0:31

Ulundi .
I doubt anyone can contradict Newman's writings on the zulu war as he does use his own observations and many from others whom he quotes often in his book . Impi is referring to Newmans poignant description of the battlefield and I think the Fugitives Track , it's in his book ' In Zululand with the british throughout the war of 1879 ' and to me its a must have , many facts and figures etc etc . Newman , it seems was happy to embelish his own personal life , but he hasnt done so about the war . His description of the battlefield during his visit on the 19th May runs from page 181 - 184 .
Cheers 90th .
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springbok9



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 4:00

As sjwalker points out, Noggs did use a lot from Forbes, and other correspondents. He dose attribute some reports in his book, and in particular his maps. Reading his book there are commentaries on every aspect of the war, it was physically impossible for him to be at all the locations so yes he used other sources.
His writings are responsible for clearing up a lot of Questions and we would be even more confused with this damned war if we didn't have old Noggs.

Cheers
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Keithchr



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 12:08


Here is some more info about Noggs and Ethel, his wife and their divorce proceedings:
The reasons Ethel stipulates for the petition do not show him in the best light, although he as respondent made no reply
to the allegations/accusations. Most interestingly - the petition mentions no living issue from the marriage - although Ethel was " confined of a child"

Norris-Newman Ethel Luke v Norris-Newman Charles Louis Marie William
Petition filed 25th Feb 1907
Decree Nisi granted 30 Apr 1908
Final Decree 9th Nov 1908

Ethel cited "adultery and cruelty" as the reasons for the application for divorce. Costs of £58 18s 9d awarded against Charles.
At the time of this petition Ethel was residing in Anerley SE London and Charles in Tientsin, China
where "he was the editor of a newspaper"

The application and sworn affidavits stated:
"The said Charles L MW Norris-Newman has treated the petitioner with great cruelty and neglect & has used abusive and threatening language
and has frequently assaulted her"

"That in or about the months of June & July 1900, the said Charles LMW Norris-Newman committed adultery with some woman unknown and thereby contracted a venereal disease
and that in or about the month of August 1900 recklessly and cruelly infected the petitioner with the said disease"

"That in or about the months of August and September 1900 at No. 66 "B" Bluff, Yokohama the said Charles LMW Norris-Newman frequently struck the petitioner and as a consequence
she was prematurely confined of a child on 13 September 1900". This child (a boy named Charles Roland L Norris-Newman) was born prematurely and died shortly after.

"That on an occasion in the month of February 1901 the said Charles LMW Norris-Newman struck the petitioner a violent blow with his fist knocking her to the ground"

I could go on - but you get the gist!... Charles committed adultery on 6th May 1901 with a woman in a brothel in Yokohama and at the time of the petition he was "residing in Tientsin
with a woman who passes as his wife"...

Ethel remarried in Croydon in 1908... Noggs has no direct descendants (at least from his 1st two marriages - he married for a 3rd time in Tientsin in 1909 and had one daughter)- although he had several cousins who may have descendants around today. His death was registered in 1921 (not 1920) with the British Consul in Tientsin. His age given as 61 years - although he was actually about 68.

In the light of the above it is interesting to note the first line of Charles' book In Zululand With The British - in which he states "They say that self praise is no recommendation"...


Last edited by Keithchr on Mon 28 Oct 2013 - 21:41; edited 8 times in total
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 14:51

"The Standard was the only newspaper to employ a professional journalist to cover the start of the war, although the choice of a locally based journalist, Norris-Newman, was hardly inspired. In January 1879 he assured readers that Zululand lacked natural obstacles, that the people of Zululand at large were content with the terms demanded by the British, that the British military build-up ‘had a repressive and deterrent effect upon the native mind and temper’ and that ‘every incident of the campaign will serve to establish the influence of British rule as a dominant and irresistible fact’. Events were to demonstrate that each of these prognostications by the local expert was wildly ill-informed. Newman’s overall conclusion was that there was ‘no reason to entertain the slightest uneasiness as to the capability of the force assembled to carry out the objects in view’.(27) This report was published in London five days after the Zulu victory at Isandlwana and two weeks before the news of that disaster for the British reached London. His reports unfolded with bizarre effect, for, due to the delays in communication, columns of jingoistic optimism, reported after early skirmishes, continued to be printed long after the brief telegraphed report from Chelmsford, announcing news of the annihilation of the British at Isandlwana, had already been published. Forced to choose between throwing away expensive and unique reports from the only newspaperman on the spot or protecting the reputation of their correspondent, the newspaper chose to print the reports and thereby expose Norris-Newman’s lack of judgement. Even when he was given one of the great scoops of history, Newman was so shocked by Isandlwana that his coup in being the only correspondent on the spot resulted in a dull report, in which he was more concerned with bureaucratic lists of the dead than with the course of events, for, as he himself announced, ‘my letter is far less complete than I could have wished but I am so completely unnerved by the scenes I have witnessed that it is with great difficulty I can arrange my thoughts in a coherent train"
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springbok9



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PostSubject: Re: Charles L W C Norris-Newman "Noggs"   Sat 26 Oct 2013 - 15:28

At Helpmakaar afterwards he was made to fend for himself, food shelter etc. I remember he had quite a moan about it as though he felt he should have been treated with a bit of priority.

Cheers
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