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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyWed Aug 07, 2013 11:47 am

On the morning of the 21st Lt Browne and a small party of MI almost bumped into the Zulu army moving fron iSiphezi to Ngwebini.
I cant find any further information on him or the incident.
Any help available?

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Browne MI    Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 7:24 am

Hi Springy .
Which books have you checked ? . I wont be home till tomorrow but if I remember I'll have a look for you .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 7:40 am

I got the name from the Narrative. Theres a referal to him in HCMDB but its a mix up, Snooks mixed him up with Maori.
Busy going through tha balance now.
Im just trying to confirm a couple of issues, mainly why was he operating that far afield, he must have been near Silutshane ( thats the area Russell patrolled on the 21st ). And in addition what sort of force he encountered and what sort of force did he have.
He was out with Chelmsford on the 22nd, its just suprising that there seems to be very little on him at all.
Maybe Barry will see this and check up on Clarke as well.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 9:36 am

The morning of the 21 January ,Main Zulu army on the Siphezi Mountain breaks into small groups and move north-west into Ngweni Valley.A patrol from the British camp is driven off by Zulu scouts without realising the significance of the encounter .LOL
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 2:14 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Lt Edward Stevenson Browne VC.
The man who came close to discovering the zulu impi in transit on the 21st January.
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 2:30 pm

Mate, this is the one I tell you? Because there is also a detachment of MI, which on January 22, in the morning, fell precipitately, making recognition with LC and his staff in the valley betweens Magogo and Silutshana ,before small parts of Zulu followers of inkhosi Matshana kaMondisa ...
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 2:42 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Mate, this is the one I tell you? Because there is also a detachment of MI, which on January 22, in the morning, fell precipitately, making recognition with LC and his staff in the valley betweens Magogo and Silutshana ,before small parts of Zulu followers of inkhosi Matshana kaMondisa ...
Bonjour,
He is the same man.
The 22/01, it is the Brevet Lt. Col RUSSEL with detachment of IMI who made a recognition near the Siphezi Hill, no?

regard
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 3:14 pm

Yep same man. He was with Russell on the 22nd.

Viva The french Connection Viva Very Happy 
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 3:34 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Yep same man. He was with Russell on the 22nd.

Viva The french Connection Viva Very Happy 
 
Bonjour Springbok,
 
Viva "the frenchglish"!
 
Il don't have my books at hands.
But there is an article on him (I.E.BROWN) in the book "Who 's who / vol.1 " by Adrian GREAVES and Ian KNIGHT.
it seems to me (from memory) that the 21/01 BROWN was with a patrol of 4 IMI when he fought 30 zulus "on foot" and 8 "on horses" (one zulu killed / one zulu wounded / no KIA or wounded for the british) : Source Coghill's journal /"Zulu Rising" Ian Knight - "the road to isandlwana p.216!?! by P. GON)
 
Bien à vous.
 
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 3:42 pm

Ymob
Great stuff, Ive been wading through books all day, tend to get side tracked though. I will look those up now.

Cheers Mate
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Ok managed to locate where the skirmish took place.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the extreme left is isandlwana ( very small )
The right of the hill range is the entrance to the Ngwebini Valley.
So the Impi was moving from isiphesi behind to the left towards the valley. The patrol from isandlwana towards the camera. This is also the area that was patrolled next day ( the 22nd) by Russell.
Browne came very close to seeing the impi.

There you go CTSG something a bit different

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 4:34 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Ymob
Great stuff, Ive been wading through books all day, tend to get side tracked though. I will look those up now.

Cheers Mate
 
If I can help:D ....(great photo)
On this forum, i learn many things on the battle of Isandhlwana with you and Mister Julian WHYBRA.

Have you got these 3 books?
It seems to me that there is also a mention of the incident in JACKSON's book ("Hill of the Sphinx) and many others.
This evening, at home,  i will look for an article of Ian KNIGHT "Scouting techniques in 1879: British weknesses or zulu strengths?" and Adrian GREAVES "Isandlwana - decoy and defeat: How the zulus deployed to attack Isandlwana" (but i am not a "fan" of GREAVES) for information on this "incident".
It seems to me that some autors said that the zulu's patrol was commanded by a great zulu chief, maybe "Zi....tu" (!?!).
 
Do you want also information on Lt BROWN?
I know there are many comments on him  in books and articles with the battle of Lhobane.
From memory there is  a comment on the "clash" between BROWN and Brevet Lt Col RUSSEL ("RUSSELL a coward" dixit BROWN) at the battle of Lhobane in a book of Ron LOCK ("The painted Mountain"?).
 
Regard
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 4:49 pm

Thanks Ymob
Ive managed to get most things together now, except for details on the Clash with Russell. If you could let me have that reference I would be grateful.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyThu Aug 08, 2013 5:00 pm

You see Mate, month after month, this is the job which comes Very Happy 
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 12:03 am

springbok9 wrote:
Thanks Ymob
Ive managed to get most things together now, except for details on the Clash with Russell. If you could let me have that reference I would be grateful.
Cheers
Bonsoir Springbok,


"On the subject "Russel the coward" (by Browne), I have found in "the road to Isandlwana" by Philip GON p. 254: "(At Hlobane)It was never determined whether RUSSEL's retreat had been the result of confusion or a deliberate misinterpretation of a message he had received from Colonel Wood. But Browne had accused him of cowardise, and had handed Wood a written denouncement of his commanding officer in which he stated that neither he, nor his men, would go into action Under Russel again".

Sorry, but no footnote in GON's book...

Have you got those articles:
-"Horror at the Devil's pass; the battle of Hlobane" by John YOUNG,
-"Zulu war Victoria Cross holders" by Brian Best (in reponse, see "letters from Ron Lock);
-"Lhobane, a new perspective" by Huw M. Jones;
-"The battle of Lhobane" by Ron Lock,
-"Lhobane plateau on horseback" by John Mc Adam

Regards
Frédéric
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Browne MI    Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:17 am

Hi Springy / ymob
I also remember that John Cecil Russell , possibly, on Wood's reccomendation was sent back to the rear, and was placed in charge of the Re-mount yard .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:17 am

Lt. Edward Stevenson Browne? Still manqquait imagination which in fact Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Lt Browne MI    Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:22 am

Hi Springy / ymob .
The information on Russell is in ' Who's Who in the Zulu War ' Vol 1 By Greaves & Knight page 167 - 169 .
He was indeed sent to the rear , to the remount yard at P'maritzburg .
90th You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:28 am

Lt. Edward Stevenson Browne, the first white man to have seen the Zulu royal army ...
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PostSubject: Lt Browne MI    Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:29 am

Hi Springy .
Ymob is correct , on page 37 of ' Who's Who In The Zulu War ' by Greaves & Knight is the following
'' On 21st Jan , as a prelude to a general movement of the column , Lt Browne and a patrol of just 4 mounted men scouted towards the Siphezi Mountain ; they withdrew after light skirmishing with zulu patrols , not realizing that they had come close to intercepting the movement of the main zulu army from Siphezi to the Ngwebeni Valley '' .
90th You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 6:57 am

And all this is explained on page 41 of the book of IK "Isandhlwana 1879 The great Zulu victory" ... Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 8:31 am

[quote="90th"]Hi Springy .
Ymob is correct , on page 37 of  ' Who's Who In The Zulu War ' by Greaves & Knight is the following
'' On 21st Jan , as a prelude to a general movement of the column , Lt Browne and a patrol of just 4 mounted men scouted towards the Siphezi Mountain ; they withdrew after light skirmishing with zulu patrols , not realizing that they had come close to intercepting the movement of the main zulu army from Siphezi to the Ngwebeni Valley '' .
Hi all,
You can also see Ian Knight's article: "Scouting techniques in 1879: British weknesses or zulu strengths?" The chief of the zulu's force was a "great induna" Zibbethu".
 
Regard
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyFri Aug 09, 2013 9:38 am

Yes it's true frederic and more, page 41 of the book of IK "Isandhlwana 1879 The great Zulu victory", it is a nice map to understand this case there ...
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Thanks Ymob
Ive managed to get most things together now, except for details on the Clash with Russell. If you could let me have that reference I would be grateful.
Cheers
 
Bonjour Springbok,
 
I have found this:
(source: "Zulu Vanquished" by Lock and Quantrill p.127 and 128)
 
'However, a few days after the battle [Kambula]...BROWNE approached WOOD with a "straightforward letter, offering to resign rather than serve under RUSSEL again".
On 10 april WOOD forwarded BROWNE's letter to Lord CHELMSFORD and commented:
I forward herewith a letter which must cause you pain. Colonel BULLER said to me on the afternoon of the 28th march, when i rode from where Col. RUSSEL  should have ascended , to where he came up, to order him back - "I'll be D...d' Sir, if i serve again in a joint operation with RUSSEL". I took no notice of this at the time, and should not have mentionned the circumstances had not Captain [sic] BROWNE told BULLER he must see me or resign-the straightforward letter i forward is the result of our interview (....)'.
 
Cheers.
 
Frédéric

I.E: What is the signification of ""I'll be D...d' Sir"????
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 3:54 pm

I.E: What is the signification of ""I'll be D...d' Sir"????

Maybe "Dammed"????

Cheers

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Lt Browne MI   Lt  Browne MI EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 4:00 pm

That's quite right Frederic
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