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 Abandoned!

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PostSubject: Abandoned!   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:21 am

Hi all

Once the Zulu attack launched well before they are coming in the camp, there was already any british wounded, brought from the line of fire ...

Nobody ever said how, not an officer has wanted to organize their evacuation of the camp when things started to go wrong there ...

They were left on the ground of the camp or in tents?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:51 am

Well what? There is no testimonials on the wounded British soldiers on the line of fires, and bring them into the camp by their comrades, well before the Zulu will penetrate ...

What, in 120 mm of combat on the line of fires ,there are no soldiers injured by the Zulu fires ?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:43 am

What, in 120 mm of battle on the line of fires, there are no soldiers injured by the Zulu fires?

Regardless, Zulu really shooting very hard and the British had armor under their jackets ...Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:03 pm

In every battle, you get the number of the dead and the wounded ...

A Isandhlwana, there are no injuries?? That the dead and the survivors??
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:54 pm

Pascal,

Quote :
In every battle, you get the number of the dead and the wounded ...

A Isandhlwana, there are no injuries?? That the dead and the survivors??
I take it you are referring to the British/Colonial side, rather than the Zulu side, in which case:

Lieutenant W. B. Erskine, 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment, Natal Native Contingent - wounded in action - spear wound to thigh.

Six African other-ranks of Zikhali's Horse - wounded in action.

At least ten African other-ranks of the Natal Native Contingent - wounded in action.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:59 am

Jim

I was talking about white and if possible before the Zulu are in the camp!
In 120 mm of battle on the line of fires, there are no soldiers injured by the Zulu fires?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:37 am

Pascal,

I must not cancel those Breton mind-reading classes! Rolling Eyes 

That is not what you asked!

Pascal wrote:
I was talking about white
Lieutenant W. B. Erskine does not sound too African to me.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:02 am

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Pascal,

I must not cancel those Breton mind-reading classes! Rolling Eyes 

That is not what you asked!

Pascal wrote:
I was talking about white
Lieutenant W. B. Erskine does not sound too African to me.

'Jimu
agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:05 am

I mean you do cites only white !No No No 

Jim you had me very well understood!:[url=http://ww :[url=http://ww :[url=http://ww 

What happened to the soldiers injured on the line of fire, which has brought these guys in the camp ? It should be how many soldiers of the line of fire to bring the wounded by the Zulus fire on the line of fire in the camp? 2 or 4 per wounded? They are no british witnesses or testimonials?

The defenders have had no soldiers injured in the line of fire before the Zulus are coming in the camp? Impossible!
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:59 am

Pascal,

Sorry still lost in translation.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:06 pm

Yeah, of the Breton of the Tregor-Goelo to the French to the English and from the English to the French and then to the Breton of the Tregor-Goelo, I can not tell you the mess! In it I will have to write in Welsh, Like this, everyone will be happy!
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:54 pm


ciscokid wrote on the topic "Save the camp" I was seriously led to believe That MOST Zulu's About did Have muskets - something like the King got his crew together and got them t hold up Their rifles, he Realised not many Were armed so Told 'em to go to the white traders and get some guns.

And toc! It is gone, the British were defeated because all Zulu warriors had muskets and MLR ... :[url=http://ww 

Bizarre as the 24th guy did not have only one injured in 120 mm of presence on the line of fires ! :[url=http://ww 

Still with 20,000 muskets and MLR, they could have done better! Sacred Zulu!:[url=http://ww 

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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:13 pm

I only assumed that there were would soldier, base on the film Zulu Dawn. When you see men wounded laying on stretchers. 

But Pascal does make a point. How were they wounded, and who carred them back to the camp area?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:50 pm

Ray,

Then, as now, bandsmen were employed as stretcher-bearers. They would have obviously carried the wounded back to a field hospital, where Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd, assisted by Lieutenant of Orderlies A. W. Hall and the ten other-ranks of the Army Hospital Corps would have received them.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:52 pm

Thanks Jim. What type of wounds would they have received. Are we talking musket shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:04 pm

The men in the camp, could very well have just been sick in general. 

I would imagine any wounded out on the firing lines would have only occurred during an attack, and were possibly left where they was Firstaid being administered by other soldiers, as best they could. We know that drummer boys, bandsmen ect were tied up delivering what ammuntion.

I can't find any account that mentioned wounded solders being brought into camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:18 am


Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote : I can't find any account that mentioned wounded solders being brought into camp.

Me neither, which is impossible! Because yesterday, on the topic "Save the camp" Zulu warriors are new, well equiped with muskets and rifles, then they swore me, since 2011, they had no more than 2% warriors equiped with such weapons. (see the topic "Save the camp")

Well imagine a poor guy 24 th, is shot and wounded on the line of fire ...

Hopefully, the Zulus are far enough ...

It takes 2 or 4 friends to bring him in the camp, if it can not walk and if there is no Bandsmen available for transport him. (Note that LC has left its ambulances in the camp ...)

And I'm not talking about the black wounded of the infantry of the NNC...

'Jimu wrote: They Would Have Carried Obviously the wounded back to a field hospital, Where Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd, assisted by Lieutenant of orderlies A. W. Hall and the other ten-ranks of the Army Hospital Corps Would Have received em.

You can imagine the distances between the line of fire and the field hospital!

In addition, for each injured, a company on the line of fire, loses 3 to 5 men (that decrease the firepower of the companies ...) ... Because if it is 2 or 4 friends who have returned, they are not eager to return to battle, it is human (and Bonaparte had forbidden the wounded are gathered before the end of the battles, because some of those who helped the wounded took the opportunity to get to shelters ...)

Inevitably, there have been injured on the line of fire and that was an additional concern for officers on the line of fire or in the camp ...

There is not a single testimony??

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:12 pm

CTSG & Pascal,

Quote :
I would imagine any wounded out on the firing lines would have only occurred during an attack, and were possibly left where they was Firstaid being administered by other soldiers, as best they could. We know that drummer boys, bandsmen ect were tied up delivering what ammuntion.

I can't find any account that mentioned wounded solders being brought into camp.
Who was there left alive from the firing-line to give any such information?

Interesting that First Aid is mentioned as the "father" of British First Aid was in the camp - Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd - some of the soldiers may well have had his Aide-Memoir on First Aid, some may have even had his illustrated bandage.

Not wishing to get embroiled in a debate over "Drummer-Boys" but the companies that were would have used their Drummers for what they were there for; conveying orders either by drum or bugle. As I previously stated Bandsmen were used as stretcher-bearers. As well as these each company would have had designated "runners" also as a method of communication but as to assist in resupply. Mules were used at Isandlwana as a method to resupply ammunition to the firing-line. Much easier for a beast of burden to carry a number of ammunition boxes, than the two men it would take to carry one box of ammunition. There were three other-ranks of the Army Service Corps killed in the action, who can say in 2013 that they were not involved in the resupply of ammunition. Add to the distribution of ammunition, as well as the Quartermasters, Quartermaster-Sergeants T. Leitch & G. H. Davis, of the 1st & 2nd 24th respectively.

As to theory about:
Quote :
The men in the camp, could very well have just been sick in general.


Possibly but only from the sick-parades of 21st & 22nd January, as those otherwise infirm would have been sent back to the base hospital at Rorke's Drift.

If you look at Smith-Dorrien's much later recalled remark:

Smith-Dorrien wrote:
I...collected camp stragglers, such as artillerymen in charge of spare horses, officers' servants, sick, etc., and had taken them to the ammunition-boxes,..
Those sick appear to be at least able enough to get involved so their ailments could not have been too serious.

I appreciate most of this is theory and supposition, but I hope by introducing contemporary army practices it might help to illustrate my logic.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:05 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
CTSG & Pascal,

Quote :
I would imagine any wounded out on the firing lines would have only occurred during an attack, and were possibly left where they was Firstaid being administered by other soldiers, as best they could. We know that drummer boys, bandsmen ect were tied up delivering what ammuntion.

I can't find any account that mentioned wounded solders being brought into camp.
Who was there left alive from the firing-line to give any such information?

Interesting that First Aid is mentioned as the "father" of British First Aid was in the camp - Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd - some of the soldiers may well have had his Aide-Memoir on First Aid, some may have even had his illustrated bandage.

Not wishing to get embroiled in a debate over "Drummer-Boys" but the companies that were would have used their Drummers for what they were there for; conveying orders either by drum or bugle.  As I previously stated Bandsmen were used as stretcher-bearers.  As well as these each company would have had designated "runners" also as a method of communication but as to assist in resupply.  Mules were used at Isandlwana as a method to resupply ammunition to the firing-line.  Much easier for a beast of burden to carry a number of ammunition boxes, than the two men it would take to carry one box of ammunition.  There were three other-ranks of the Army Service Corps killed in the action, who can say in 2013 that they were not involved in the resupply of ammunition.  Add to the distribution of ammunition, as well as the Quartermasters, Quartermaster-Sergeants T. Leitch & G. H. Davis, of the 1st & 2nd 24th respectively.

As to theory about:
Quote :
The men in the camp, could very well have just been sick in general.

Possibly but only from the sick-parades of 21st & 22nd January, as those otherwise infirm would have been sent back to the base hospital at Rorke's Drift.

If you look at Smith-Dorrien's much later recalled remark:

Smith-Dorrien wrote:
I...collected camp stragglers, such as artillerymen in charge of spare horses, officers' servants, sick, etc., and had taken them to the ammunition-boxes,..
Those sick appear to be at least able enough to get involved so their ailments could not have been too serious.

I appreciate most of this is theory and supposition, but I hope by introducing contemporary army practices it might help to illustrate my logic.

'Jimu
Same sarnario at RD
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:08 pm

With regards to the Mules. It was argued that, they may have been sent, but nothing to say they got to thier destination? Mules were seen running away kicking off whatever provisions they were carrying. Brickhill I think ?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:15 pm

John,

This from the evidence of Captain Edward Essex:

...The enemy's fire had hitherto been very wild and ineffective, now, however, a few casualties began to occur in our line. The companies [of] 1st Battalion 24th Regiment first engaged were now becoming short of ammunition, and at the request of the officer in charge I went to procure a fresh supply, with the assistance of [the] Quartermaster 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment and some men of the Royal Artillery. I had some boxes place on a mule cart and sent it off to the companies engaged, and sent more by hand, employing any men without arms. I then went back to the line, telling the men that plenty of ammunition was coming. I found that the companies [of] 1st Battalion 24th Regiment before alluded to had retired to within 300 yards of that portion of the camp occupied by the Native Contingent...

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:27 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
John,

This from the evidence of Captain Edward Essex:

...The enemy's fire had hitherto been very wild and ineffective, now, however, a few casualties began to occur in our line.  The companies [of] 1st Battalion 24th Regiment first engaged were now becoming short of ammunition, and at the request of the officer in charge I went to procure a fresh supply, with the assistance of [the] Quartermaster 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment and some men of the Royal Artillery.  I had some boxes place on a mule cart and sent it off to the companies engaged, and sent more by hand, employing any men without arms.  I then went back to the line, telling the men that plenty of ammunition was coming.  I found that the companies [of] 1st Battalion 24th Regiment before alluded to had retired to within 300 yards of that portion of the camp occupied by the Native Contingent...

'Jimu
I think this was the statement,that started the debate? Although he states he sent the mules off, and rides to the lines, he doen't confirm that the mules delivered it!
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:40 pm

Hi Littlehand .
Agreed , that was the point I was attempting to make well over a year or so ago in regard to Ammunition getting to the front . Julian had his thoughts and I had mine ! .
We know it was sent there , but , do we know how much of it actually arrived ! . We will never know .
Cheers 90th Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:42 pm

Brickhills account page 4
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:12 am

All, you wanted to know what happened to
the casualty's on the firing line,retreat on
the camp,the collapse,the fugitives trail..

The Zulu's washed their spears..each man
of the 20.000/25.00. who passed a corpse.
any corpse man or beast, inanimate. what-
ever got stabbed.everything was dead,even
unto the very metals..
cheers xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:15 am

Les very true! Even the innocent tins of corn beef got stabbed!
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:39 am

Littlehand that may have been the zulu way of Tenderizing it ! :[url=http://ww 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:33 am

Jim wrote :"Mules were used at Isandlwana as a method to resupply ammunition to the firing-line"

These are not the mules that were used, but scotch carts carrying 16 boxes of 600 rounds each

Note that LC has left its ambulances in the camp, they were not used to fetch the wounded? They were found where in the camp?
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:08 am

Hi Rascal .
There are eye witness reports of Mules also been laden with Ammo boxes to head to the front lines . These eye witness accounts also state that some of the Mules were seen running away in different directions and going all over the place .
Julian was one who said that Scotch Carts were laden with Ammo boxes and sent to the front , obviously not enough ammo got here , as those who werent on the firing were employed in ferrying ammunition to the front , either by transport, or carried by individuals .
90th
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:13 am

I forgot to mention Rascal that the Ambulance or Ambulances had attempted to get away from the camp , I think by using the R.D road , they unfortunatley didnt get very far , those inside were pulled out and assegaid along with those who were driving it . I'm certain Ian Knight mentions this in ' Zulu Rising ' .
90th You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:15 am

SCOTCH CARTS section. From the Last Stand topic. 
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:28 am

Hi Marsupial

If mules were successful in services bringing ammunition companies, with 70 cartridge on each soldiers + the 9600 cartridges by carts for each compagny, each soldier shoot more than 2 rounds per minute (as I calculated) and that for 90 mm effective shots (because they stopped 3X10 mm)

Is it humanly possible? Don\'t agree 

To return to the topic, LC not takes his ambulance, he wanted to do something with his wounded, if he had ...

.
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:39 am

Hi Rascal .
Sorry , I dont know Shocked 
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:54 am

Im pretty sure that the reference to Mules running around with ammunition still strapped to them is a reference to the mules from the the rocket battery, with rockets strapped on. Not ammunition boxes.

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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:02 am

But yes he was thinking, thank you Springbok, after the 1877 regulations, it is the Scoch Carts carrying ammunition ...

So they have not taken more than two rounds per minute ... As I calculated ... But thatis not the topic ...

Good to return to the topic, as we see that LC does not bring with him the ambulances, so he hopes a battle, it gives us an idea of ​​all the consideration he had for his poor soldiers ...
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:32 am

They were no where near Brickhill. We can only speculate on that!
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:35 am

Don\'t agree John ,I tell you that LC did not care for his wounded eventual !
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:42 am

He didn't know there was any, he was 16KM away! He was paid to look after the sick and wounded.
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:11 am

Explain to me, how LC allegedly carrying his wounded, if he had,after a battle ?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:30 am

Pascal
How do you know he didnt take an ambulance?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:55 am

I want, I'll tell you this, as soon as I have found ...
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:01 am

Page 233 of Historical Records of the 24 th Regiment ,from its formation in 1689 by George Paton , Farquhar Glennie !
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:13 am

And it is specific in saying no ambulances were taken, or does it just not mention the specifics?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:21 am

"All the bandsmen had been detailed to remain,but at the last moment were ordered out with every avaivable stretcher,the commanding -officerbeing informed that Lord Chelmsford had directed that no ambulances should accompany the force.
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:14 am

Ok
So Chelmsford did take medical staff etc. Surely then its a bit harsh to say he didnt care about his men? Or am I loosing something in translation?
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:39 am

No I copied word for word !

In the beginning, he wanted to take the stretcher and ambulances.

But for some reason he changed his mind and ordered the stretchers and ambulances remain in the camp !

He wanted to attack with Dartnell, a Zulu force he thought that it's the complet Zulu royal army, and he does not want stretcher or ambulance??

What he imagined? A battle without losses? In any case, my friend, it will give you a whole new idea of the personality of Chelmsford! Finally, he scorned the Zulus at the highest point and laughed at his poor soldiers ...Salute 
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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:22 pm

Hi Springy .
I'm not home but I'm fairly certain the mules I mentioned were not part of the Rocket Battery . I seem to remember it was stated by a survivor or survivors leaving Isandlwana that they the mules had Ammunition Boxes lashed to them . I think Barry has also mentioned this in Trooper Clark's diary from memory ? .
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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:55 pm

Hi Marsupial

Why use mules for ammunition on the line of fire, they had scoch carts! What is 182/183 cartridges per man to shoot in 90 mm counting the 70 they had on them!

They had no ammunition needs! Indeed,with the first volley of muskets Zulu on the RB, these mules fled in all directions!

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PostSubject: Re: Abandoned!   Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:56 pm

90th
The quote your looking for is from Prv J Williams. "I saw horses and mules with ammunition on there backs galloping about the camp". But there is a further quote that refers to then specifically as Mules from the Rocket Battery. Possible of course that its two seperate sightings. Interesting thing about Williams quote is he refers to horses. This must be quite early on as after that he packs up Gynns tents and still has time to fetch "40 rounds of ammunition and fire of 29". Its only after doing that lot he is told to leave by Coghill.And then in sequence the guns passed him. I have a feeling the other statement was by Davies, need to spend time and dig it out.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Abandoned    Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:02 pm

Hi Springy .
Yes , I'll go with that , I think the two are no doubt seperate sightings . Davies it may have been , I have Morris here , may see if he mentions anything .
Cheers 90th.
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