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 The best zulu war book in your opinion.

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Chuckles



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PostSubject: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:43 pm

Hi, I'm a new member and was wondering in your opinion what is the best and most informative book you have read on this war.
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:28 pm

Hi chuckles, where to start..you could
start off with a second hand paperback of
Donald Morris..The Washing of the Spears.
had its criticisms on specific points but
overall a most comprehensive account of
the early South Afican tribal and white
settlers in the middle to latter part of the
nineteeth century culminating in the AZW
of 1879.

I think that if you had asked for the ten most
popular books you would have been in real
trouble, you would of got hundreds of diff-
erent opinions lol.stick with it.its a life con-
suming passion if it gets a grip of you.
cheers xhosa2000
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:51 pm

Have a look at this link

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John

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:54 pm

And this one! 

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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:18 pm

"

The Washing of the Spears.


Wasn't this the book, that was the basis for the mistakes? 
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:11 pm

Hi sas1, the basis for the mistakes were.
confederation.complacency,arrogance,
underestimation,ect. oh you mean Morris,
apart from the FEW mistakes theres no
other book on the AZW to touch it.any
body care to tell me a few alternatives.
cheers xhosa2000
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Chuckles



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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:24 pm

Hi xhosa2000, thanks for the reply mate. I'm told ZULU by Saul David is very good tho I haven't read it myself. But by most accounts Washing of the spears is the one to have.
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:41 pm

Hiya chuckles,im sure others will welcome you
and nurture your quest for more infomation.
in the meantime just enjoy your journey into
this fascinating slice of our recent history.
cheers pal xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:58 pm

All, further to morris.his detractors always...
recite his lack of sources..jealousy..think
about why he did'nt,then consider his posi-
tion. a yank. a spook.coming to the subject
with scant academic re-sauce material to
draw on.communication in his day, no internet.
using the days technology. ie, the pen, the
telephone. i suggest his sources would have
been impeccable.theres a lot of modern and
current academics who must concede his
place in the percieved wisdom on the AZW of
1979.he himself scorned the title Academic..
and dont forget in the early 60's his bibliog-
raphy was to die for..i haunted librarys and
second hand bookshops from the age 14.
credit where its due.or tell me why not.
cheers xhosa
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:09 am

Chuckles
I worship xhosa like a brother, but hes smoking some thing he shouldnt be.
Read TWOTS at your peril, its fraught with mistakes tht have passed into lore. Unfortunatly he didnt get the nick name of make it up Morris for nothing. Les has it taped in that he wrote most of the book from Berlin with little access to accounts and there in is the problem, he tended to fill in the gaps with supersistion. A lot of his tails are still provoking discussion ( look at this forum alone).
I dont believe ther is one definative book on the complete Zulu nation. Start with EA Richter or CT Binns for early Shaka then work into Zulu Rising. That will give you the bones to build on, from there look through the research books. Smith Whybra and Jackson for instance.


Good hunting

Cheers
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Chuckles



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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 am

Cheers springbok. And everyone else for their replies. As for Xhosa smoking something he shouldn't be lol, I just quit and it's killing me but that's another story. Thanks again mate.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:01 am

Chuckles. My grandad smoked, from the age of 14, and lived a very active life. He stopped smoking at tne age of 88 and passed away the same year! Personally I have never smoked!
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:46 am

I worship xhosa like a brother, ahh Frank.ditto mate.

Morris, i take back nothing. pre him what did have
and isnt it interesting to note that quite a few have
made a pretty penny pulling his work apart, and
in his own life time, but again i say look at his work ob-
jectively, The scope.the feeling that here is someone
who popped up out of the blue, and landed his weighty
tome smack bang in the midst of british academia who
at first had no response. untill the excellent David
Jackson published his work in JAHR.

Sorry it was so easy for some to plunder his work and
for the most part he refused to defend him self.his mistakes
are just that.mistakes.not crimes.i think his work should
be celebrated and given its rightful place in understanding
the events that occurred in the AZW.and i say again..who
back in the day was doing ANYTHING to further our under-
standing. in my opinion Morris was derided by people who
have not produced anything to match his stunning overall
view of Southern Africa in the early days of that beautiful
country. cheers xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: The best zulu war booki in your opinion    Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:47 am

Hi Chuckles .
Firstly welcome aboard , secondly , unfortunately there is ' No ' one book to cover the war , it depends on what part of the war you most want to read about or if it's all the war ? .
Cheers 90th
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Chuckles



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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:11 am

Cheers 90th.
All of it mate. Read a couple of books already mate but in my opinion not enough attention is given to the lesser known battles. It all seems to be about the "big 2". Also I want to broaden my knowledge on this subject cos I've been thru this forum and I thought I knew about this war until I came across you lot. Lol. Cheers buddy.
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90th

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PostSubject: The best zulu war books in your opinion   Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:34 pm

Hi Chuckles .
If you are able send me a pm and let me know what you've read . I'll reply with some sort of list for you to mull over , some can be obtained easily , others more difficult and some what more expensive . I'm happy to send you what I think is a '' must have list '' .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:19 pm

The book of Mr Jackson is insurpassable Very Happy 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:17 pm

I believe the discussion is about the best Zulu War book? If that is right then it cant be David Jackson, he is focused on one battle. Actually apart from Morris who do we have thats written about the war as a whole. The Narrative? Then and Now? Any other offerings.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:58 pm

Yes but as is Isandhlwana that characterizes this war, I think it is still the masterpiece of Mr. David Jackson, the best!
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: The best Zulu book    Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:19 pm

Hi chuckles,
I am also a new member and I wasn't sure where to start, I recently got hold of a book called 'Zulu Rising' by 'Ian Knight' This book had taken Ian nearly 30 years to research and it is an amazing read which is packed with facts that aren't always covered in other books. Ian explains the structure of Zulu lives and traditions and he gives a very detailed and balanced picture from both the Zulu and British perspectives. He covers the ordinary British soldier and their day to day lives, soldiers such as Anthony Durnford and Charlie Harford. This book also goes into great depth and explains to the reader the reasons why the confrontation happened. The only thing that some people may not like is the fact that this book uses words which reflect contemporary racial attitudes, including those which are regarded as highly offensive today. This book also contains photos from 1879. It is a big read but for a starting point I would highly recommend it.

Kind Regards
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
Hi chuckles,
I am also a new member and I wasn't sure where to start, I recently got hold of a book called 'Zulu Rising' by 'Ian Knight' This book had taken Ian nearly 30 years to research and it is an amazing read which is packed with facts that aren't always covered in other books. Ian explains the structure of Zulu lives and traditions and he gives a very detailed and balanced picture from both the Zulu and British perspectives...It is a big read but for a starting point I would highly recommend it.
There are a great many books on this topic and they approach various aspects of the conflict in a variety of different ways so it's difficult to declare any one best book. But I agree with you the Knight's ZULU RISING is the most thoroughly integrated OVERVIEW of the Isandlwana affair to date. As you say, his 30 years of research and writing on this topic enabled him to write the most comprehensive and balanced narrative IMO...but nobody, not even Mr. Knight, can fill in all the blanks. Also, as new evidence surfaces the ground keeps shifting beneath our feet...but ZULU RISING is a wonderful synthesis and probably his magnum opus.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:39 pm

Your next book should be " Zulu Victory" by PQ & RL agree
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:19 pm

in any order,Morris, and for balance maybe,
the illustrated guide to the azw, laband and
thompson. the james stuart archive 5 vols,
the boiling cauldron, h jones, john dunn
cetywayo and the three generals,dcf moodie,
later annals of natal, a.f. hattersley.
cheers xhosa2000
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SergioD

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:25 pm

For a well written and different approach try the Snook books !! then other than above my favourites
Fearful hard times by Castle and knight
Red Soldier - Frank Emery and
Blood on the painted mountain
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:28 pm

There are so many theories comming out now try: "Durnford, my part in his downfall", Spike Milligan
Suspect 
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:31 pm

springbok9 wrote:
There are so many theories comming out now try:  "Durnford, my part in his downfall", Spike Milligan
Suspect 
Hahah How about Flashman at Rorkes Drift - now there would be a great novel!!
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:34 pm

If you want to go on a journey through Zulu Land. Go with Mitford. 

He talks to veterant Zulu warriors who took part in the Battles we often talk about, and let him take you on to the Battlefield of Isandlwana. What he see's and what he finds on the ground.

Best of all it's free to read on line. I have read in twice. Click on link below to start your tour! agree 

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:45 pm

Sergio
Doesnt Flashman do isandlwana in one of his books?
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:47 pm

old historian2 wrote:
If you want to go on a journey through Zulu Land. Go with Mitford. 

He talks to veterant Zulu warriors who took part in the Battles we often talk about, and let him take you on to the Battlefield of Isandlwana. What he see's and what he finds on the ground.

Best of all it's free to read on line. I have read in twice. Click on link below to start your tour! agree 

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You need to study mo agree Salute
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:10 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Sergio
Doesnt Flashman do isandlwana in one of his books?
probably he did get around - he  had time to get from Custers last stand to Isandlwana and to be shacked up with some Zulu princess after the battle!!
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:28 pm

SergioD wrote:
Hahah How about Flashman at Rorkes Drift - now there would be a great novel!!
SergioD -- I think we've been through this one before. Fraser wrote about Isandlwana in FLASHMAN AND THE TIGER, but perhaps you want a more fulsome treatment?
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:28 pm

Sergio
At the beginning of "Flashman and the Tiger", Flashman is in South Africa fleeing from the Battle of Isandlwana in a wagon. After his escape, he meets Tiger Jack Moran about ten miles (16 km) away, and both head to Rorke's Drift and the nightmare that awaits them. Later, at the mention of Flashman's name, Moran says "if I'd only known.

Wikepedia does have its uses after all, apart from being a main source of info for CTSG that is.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:41 pm

You are right 6pdr I do recall it know - blame it on my rapdily aging brain..
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:46 pm

springbok9 wrote:
At the beginning of "Flashman and the Tiger", Flashman is in South Africa fleeing from the Battle of Isandlwana in a wagon...
More at the end. The roundabout discussion of his cowardice begins in the early p.280s but it isn't until page 288 that he names Isandlwana: "The whole world new I was one of the few who escaped the Isan'lwana massacre in '79, but that was no disgrace since there were no living witnesses to my terrified flight, and if Cumming chose to make the worst of it, much good it would do him with my heroic reputation."

He then goes on to say that it's when and where the charge was made that worries him because he suspects it was while Cumming was tupping Elspeth.
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:51 pm

SergioD wrote:
You are right 6pdr I do recall it know - blame it on my rapdily aging brain..
No problem Sergio. Been there. Done that myself. Fraser's account seems to be based on the account of the guy who (claims to have) hid just outside Rorke's Drift and watched part of that battle by the fire before fleeing. No Zulu priestesses involved, unfortunately. I wonder why Fraser chose to (mostly) avoid this campaign when it would have been such a natural one to include in his ouvre? Too obvious maybe? Anybody have any theories?
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:04 pm

littlehand wrote:
Your next book should be " Zulu Victory" by PQ & RL agree
I agree...but to fully appreciate how innovative that thinking was you first have to have read Morris. Coming from the opposite perspective Snooks' books are less reliable overall but equally thought provoking. And I think everybody should be forced to read John Laband at gunpoint if they don't come to him voluntarily. Since the majority of troops on the British side were in the Natal Native Contingent P.S. Thompson's book is indispensable to BEGIN the process of rounding out the picture. None of these are primary sources of course, which would comprise another list entirely.
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:06 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Sergio
At the beginning of "Flashman and the Tiger", Flashman is in South Africa fleeing from the Battle of Isandlwana in a wagon. After his escape, he meets Tiger Jack Moran about ten miles (16 km) away, and both head to Rorke's Drift and the nightmare that awaits them. Later, at the mention of Flashman's name, Moran says "if I'd only known.

Wikepedia does have its uses after all, apart from being a main source of info for CTSG that is.

Cheers
And there's CTSG Saying all those nice things about you, yesterday!!! No
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:25 pm

CTSG and nice in one sentence? Isnt that an oxymoron? Shocked 
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:31 pm

Click on link Page 2. 7th post down.

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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:43 am

Impi
Yes I saw it Salute  You need to know that CTSG and I go way back, the banter between us is just that. Very Happy 

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The best zulu war book in your opinion.    Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:09 am

springbok9 wrote:
CTSG and nice in one sentence? Isnt that an oxymoron? Shocked 
agree scratch Don\'t agree
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