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 Uniform Study Zulu Dawn

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:32 am

My turn

In 1689, when the regiment was raised, the Kingdom of England included Wales. In 1706, the Act of Union meant that the new United Kingdom included Scotland as well. So the regiment was always in the service of Wales as well as England and a little later the United Kingdom. It was never confined to the defence of "England" in the narrow sense you imply.

You see the RW as being in the same camp as Baker and Griffith, in that they are all deliberately over egging the Welsh connection. With Baker and Griffith that was true. But I don't think the regiment is doing that. It is simply setting out its heritage without going through all the name changes. It isn't a Welsh conspiracy! You object if they call themselves the 24th, yet that is another acknowledgement of their heritage.

I rest my case m'lud.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:11 pm

Yes Steve, the Kingdom of England may have included Wales at the time, however, NONE of the regiments that now make up the RW were actually raised there. One of the antecedent regiments that now make up the RW may have recruited in some of the Welsh counties, but NONE were actually raised there. Also I think you will find that it was the treaty of union that was in 1706, the act of union was in 1707, and it then became the Kingdom of Great Britain, and after that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was in 1801.

Yes, the RW do appear to be in the same camp as Baker and Griffiths, as they also seem to go along with the 'myth or hoax' in over egging the 'Welsh' bit, you only have to read their statement on their web site to realise that. You say it is setting out its heritage without going through all the name changes, don't you mean it is setting out its heritage but deliberately avoiding certain things. Just take a look and see for yourself, there is no mention whatsoever of the regiments English roots, and there is no mention whatsoever of the name that it held for the longest period in its entire history (almost 100 years). Yes, I do object at the SWB calling themselves the 24th, as they NEVER were the 24th, they were just the SWB, line numbers being abolished at the time they came into existence.

If they were actually acknowledging the regiments heritage, then they would also include its English roots and its old English county title, however, these are avoided like the plague and deliberately left out so as to give the appearence to the general public that the regiment as always been 'Welsh', yet it was an English regiment for far longer than it has ever been a 'Welsh' one, but again, this is never mentioned. It looks like they are quite content to claim a regiments pre 1881 history and call it their own, and they seem perfectly happy to steal its identity (calling themselves the 24th), but without acknowledging the regiment who's history and line number it belonged to.

You yourself said that it was wrong for people to be mislead and for the old regiment not to get a mention, but it now seems that you have changed your mind about this, as you now appear to be condoning it.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:51 pm

Martin, give it a rest. You claim only relates to the film " Zulu" every other source to RD mentions the 24th Warwickshire regiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:53 pm

Martin

No, I don't condone it when people have been deliberately misled - as is the case with Baker and Griffith. But we disagree about whether the RW and SWB were/are doing it deliberately too.

It prompts a wider thought though. It seems to me that only Wales and Scotland lay claim to individual regiments (Ireland too I suppose). The English do not seem to bother. With Scotland it is perhaps because they were much more recently a separate country (and may be again). But with Wales you have to go back very much further.

Has the English reticence got something to do with the Civil War, with English regiments pitted against each other? I don't know. What do you think?

Pete

I realise we are straying well of topic, do you want to split this?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:56 pm

Steve, I think you have hit the nail on the head my friend with your comment "The English don't seem to bother".

There, I think, is the problem. We have been brainwashed into not caring anymore about our history, it is not the done thing to say that we are English anymore, we are supposed to say that we are 'British'. Well, I have a got news for the 'mind controllers', I am English through to the marrow in my bones, and no one on God's earth will ever take my birthright nor my heritage from me. We seem to be programmed to not care anymore about our rich history, and what is the old saying, 'A Nation that forgets its past has no future', well I for one care, and that is why I will not let the English history of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment be forgotten.

I can't see how Wales can lay claim to any of the regiments that now make up the RW, as none of them were actually raised in Wales, ie; 23rd Shropshire, 24th Kent, 41st Chelsea, and the 69th was the old 2nd Batt of the 24th. However, I suppose that the Welsh could apply for the 23rd as they recruited in some of the Welsh counties, but the regiment was formed at Ludlow, Shropshire, England, so it's not a Welsh regiment at all really.

cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:25 pm

I think it's not brain washing. You say you are English to your bones and I believe you.

But having researched my own family history I can tell you that my children have roots in England, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Italy, and Portugal. They were Protestants and Catholics and Jews. The wider family resides in GB, USA, Europe, Canada and Australia. In the Great War, which we commemorate tomorrow, they fought on both sides. And all that only covers the last 300 years or so! What mixing happened in the 700 years before that I wonder ?  

Interestingly there are no Welsh and no Scots that I know of.

I think the "English" are nearly all like this in reality and, consciously or otherwise, thats why they don't make too much of it.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:14 pm

Ha ha, figure of speach my friend, figure of speach.

Believe it or not, I do have Welsh connections, and I suppose if we could all go back far enough we would find some strange concoction of ingredients in each and everyone of us, perhaps we should all be called Heinz, as we would all have 57 varieties in us.  Very Happy 

It stands to reason that all British people have a similar european root, as there used to be a land bridge between what is now Britain and Europe. People could come and go as they wished, however, when the waters rose and the land bridge was no more, the people who remained here evolved separately from other people on mainland Europe, and many, many years later some of those people came over to Britain, some friendly, others not so friendly, but all in all, after the dust settled, it was like the getting together of a long lost family, but like in all families, there were, and still are squabbles.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:44 pm

Ah, so finally we get there. It's a squabble, and in the great scheme of things, has no significance.

What a relief.  Very Happy 

What can we talk about next?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:56 pm

Ummm, perhaps we should talk about the uniforms in the film Zulu Dawn.  agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:13 pm

I'm afraid that as soon as I see Burt Lancaster and hear the cod Irish I can bear it no longer. Apologies to those who like it.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:18 pm

Steve.

I rather doubt that Colonel Durnford actually spoke with a strong Irish accent, well, at least nothing like Burt Lancaster's attempt at it, and he did attend school in Germany, and he seems to have been out of Ireland more than he was in it, so maybe he would have lost most of any Irish accent he had by the time he was in SA, maybe fellow forum member John Young could throw some light on this.

I am not very keen on either film, however, ZD is at least a little nearer the truth, which is more than can be said for Baker's hoax, but both films could do with a more factual remake, this would at least set the record straight as to what the real name of the regiment was that fought at both iSandlwana and RD.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:16 am

Martin,

The real Anthony William Durnford was only born in Ireland, he was only an 'Irishman' by birth.

I doubt very much that he ever had any trace of an Irish accent in his entire life.

Even if he had been actually Anglo-Irish I doubt very much if he would have had an accent the like of Burt Lancaster's.

John Y.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:05 am

Hi John.

Thanks for that my friend, I did doubt that he would have had an Irish accent. It would seem that poor old Burt got it wrong.

Another famous 'Irishman' (if you could really call him that, as he didn't like it), was Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington (The Iron Duke), what was it he used to say when people called him an Irishman, "Jesus was born in a stable, but he wasn't a horse", ha ha, he really didn't like being called an Irishman did he.

Thanks again John.  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:38 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

Don't get me started or I will tell you what my pet hate is amongst designations in the British force in campaign!

John Y.

Actually John, speaking as a naive and confused American, I wish somebody would set me straight on the proper name(s)/designation(s) of the black colonial forces. Are the latest designations a tip of the hat toward political correctness or do they also have a historical validity? I am thinking in particular of those units lumped (perhaps pejoratively) under the rubric of "Durnford's Basutos" etc... I know you do not regard yourself as an "expert" in this area but as a matter of practice what were they really called then and how do historians speak of them now?  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:57 pm

6pdr.,

According to Ian Castle in his work Zulu War - Volunteers, Irregulars & Auxiliaries he states:
...At the outset of the campaign these units operated under the collective name of Natal Native Mounted Contingent, not the Natal Native Horse as is often erroneously reported. First published by Osprey in 2003 (ISBN 1 84176 4841).

The designation Natal Native Horse was apparently first officially in February 1879.

As well as Durnford's Basutos, I have seen them listed as the Natal Native Cavalry or simply Basutos.

The designation that ticks me off is Imperial Mounted Infantry, why the prefix? It does not appear in the Narrative of the Field Operations... or any contemporary history that I can find, so why it become accepted as the norm?

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:03 pm

John Young wrote:

The designation that ticks me off is Imperial Mounted Infantry, why the prefix?  It does not appear in the Narrative of the Field Operations... or any contemporary history that I can find, so why it become accepted as the norm?

My guess is that IMI is used because mounted infantry, even capitalized, sounds too generic.  But that begs the question why not British Mounted Infantry or somesuch...  Would the IMI be regarded as an ad hoc force?  They seem to have had no lasting designation...
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:08 pm

John Young wrote:

The designation Natal Native Horse was apparently first officially in February 1879.

As well as Durnford's Basutos, I have seen them listed as the Natal Native Cavalry or simply Basutos.

Splitting hairs here, but just curious. Could the Edendale contingent, strictly speaking, be classified as Basutos? (That is, if they were not known as "Durnford's Basutos.")
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:30 pm

John Young wrote:
6pdr.,

According to Ian Castle in his work Zulu War - Volunteers, Irregulars & Auxiliaries he states:
...At the outset of the campaign these units operated under the collective name of Natal Native Mounted Contingent, not the Natal Native Horse as is often erroneously reported.  First published by Osprey in 2003 (ISBN 1 84176 4841).

The designation Natal Native Horse was apparently first officially in February 1879.

As well as Durnford's Basutos, I have seen them listed as the Natal Native Cavalry or simply Basutos.

The designation that ticks me off is Imperial Mounted Infantry, why the prefix?  It does not appear in the Narrative of the Field Operations... or any contemporary history that I can find, so why it become accepted as the norm?

John Y.

Mister YOUNG,
As you, the designations in the British force in campaign are not "my cup of tea...
Neverthess, it seems to me that Mister Ian CASTLE had made a mistake...
I am sure that I have read somewhere (by Julian Whybra?) that in January 1879, the correct designation for the natal native cavalry is the "Natal native Horse" and not the "NNMC".
Unfortunately, i don't find at present "the source"....
Sorry.
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:45 pm

6pdr wrote:
John Young wrote:

The designation Natal Native Horse was apparently first officially in February 1879.

As well as Durnford's Basutos, I have seen them listed as the Natal Native Cavalry or simply Basutos.

Splitting hairs here, but just curious.  Could the Edendale contingent, strictly speaking, be classified as Basutos? (That is, if they were not known as "Durnford's Basutos.")

Bonsoir 6Pdr,

It seems to me that you have a copy of "Black soldiers of the Queen"by P.S.THOMPSON
"The reputation of the mounted baSotho was such that Britons and many colonists used the term "Basutos" for mounted levies in imperial service, even though historically and linguistically Hlubi's pepole had little in common with the mounted fellows, the amaNgwane and the Christians". (p.20)
See also for more explication p. 19 (ed.2006)

Cheers

Frédéric

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:17 pm

Mister YOUNG,
As you, the designations in the British force in campaign are not "my cup of tea...
Neverthess, it seems to me that Mister Ian CASTLE had made a mistake...
I am sure that I have read somewhere (by Julian Whybra?) that in January 1879, the correct designation for the natal native cavalry is the "Natal native Horse" and not the "NNMC".
Unfortunately, i don't find at present "the source"....
Sorry.
Cheers
Frédéric



Rorke's Drift forum 22 September 2005  "HMCDB" (extracts)
from Julian Whybra
"Mike [SNOOK]
3I received your book in the mail only yesterday and have not had time to read it through in detail. I would like to do this first before entering the above debate (I have something to say on it now but don't want to prejudge the issue before I've read the book). One thing I (pedant as ever) noticed was your use of NNMC instead of NNH (I noticed that there was an annotation in your book saying that NNH was a later appellation) and I assume that you got the NNMC title from Ian Castle's paperback Osprey book where he states the same thing.
However, I know of no documentary evidence or contemporary reference to the NNH being called officially NNMC. Some time ago I checked the memories of David Jackson and John Young and neither had any evidence of such an appellation either.
Neither am I aware of this unit receiving the appellation Natal Native Horse later on (though I am aware that they did later receive the title Natal Horse).
I just wondered where you got your information from regarding the use of this terminology? I did notice that the book isn't footnoted so that was of no use in answering my question. I'd be grateful for your answer (and am grateful for a mention in your preface!) as if I've missed something all these years I would want to amend England's Sons.

By Keith I. SMITH, the same day:

"Julian
The original official name of the mounted men under Durnford's command was the Natal Mounted Contingent, also known as the Natal Native Mounted Contingent. Evidence for this is to be found in several General Orders, e.g. No. 204, dated 22nd November 1878, National Army Museum, 6807/386-26-13; No. 209, dated 28th November 1878, Times of Natal 2nd December 1878; No. 228, dated 18th December 1878, Times of Natal 20th December 1878 (NNMC). This list is not exhaustive.

The first evidence of a Native Horse is to be found in GO No. 53, dated 9th March 1879, Times of Natal, 12th March 1879:

"1. The undermentioned officers are removed from the Natal Native Contingent, and posted as follows:–
Captain S. Hay, 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment, to command a squadron of Native Horse, now forming at Krantzkop.
Lieut. Evans, 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, to command a troop of the same.
Captain Nourse, 1st Battalion, 1st Regiment, to command a squadron of Native Horse, now forming at Lower Tugela.
Captain Cooke, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Regiment, to command a Troop of Horse, (non-commissioned officers of Natal Native Contingent), now forming at Lower Tugela, and Lieutenant Ellis, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Regiment, to be Lieut. in the same.
Captain Ulick de Burgh, 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, to command a Troop of Horse, (non-commissioned officers of Natal Native Contingent), now forming at Krantzkop.
Lieuts. Horatio Morant, and J.W.E. Purchas, 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, to be Lieutenants in the same."

It is clear from Paul Thomson's book on the NNC (p. 95) that the name was changed to the Natal Native Horse some time after Isandlwana, perhaps as early as February 1879.
KIS

11 october 2005 by Julian Whybra:
"Keith,
Back to the original question. I've now found references to Natal Native Horse and NNH in The Times of Natal 24th January and the Natal Mercury 25th January. I cannot believe that in the mayhem after Isandhlwana, officers would have been bothered about making an official name-change from NNMC to NNH. It can only have happened BEFORE Isandhlwana and that the units engaged at that battle would have been officially Natal Native Horse.
The last date you have referring to this unit as NNMC is 20th December 1878 - one month before the battle in which a name-change could have occurred.
I'm still delving for a pre-Isandhlwana NNH reference!"

Keith I. SMITH, the same day
"Julian
I have now done a thorough search of my documents for both NNMC and NNH. The results will confuse, rather than enlighten.

NMC/NNMC
There are two post Isandlwana references in General Orders: Cochrane appointed, GO 32, 12 Feb, and GO 59, 18th March. There are also references in the newspapers, often simply as "Mounted Contingent", cf., Witness, 30th Jan. and Mercury, 22st Jan. and 1st and 17th Feb.

NNH
There are many references here but a couple are significant. Both Raw and Davies, in their Isandlwana statements, refer to their unit as the NNH!
Further, Cochrane himself, in a statement of 4th March, refers to his unit as the NNH, (WO 33/34, Inclosure 10 in No. 96., 4th March). E.S. Browne refers to them with regard to Capt. W. Barton, dated 12th Feb, in WO 32/7387 (Wassall VC), as does Barton himself, (ibid, dated, 11th Feb.). There is also a Return of Troops in the Field showing those at Kranskop dated 6th January, in which they are referenced (PAR, CSO 681, signed by Durnford). See, finally, PAR, CSO 1926, No. 681, a report by J.E. Fannis (at Kranskop) dated 31st Jan.

I now simply would not be able to say just when, or even if, a change of name actually and officially, occurred. "

13 October by Julian Whybra
"Keith
Thank you. The post-Isandhlwana reports of the NNH officers of course mention themselves as NNH but more significant I think is the Durnford return of troops dated 6th January referring to the NNH. That may well be the clincher".

Cheers

Frédéric

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:53 pm

ymob wrote:
It seems to me that you have a copy of "Black soldiers of the Queen"by P.S.THOMPSON
"The reputation of the mounted baSotho was such that Britons and many colonists used the term "Basutos" for mounted levies in imperial service, even though historically and linguistically Hlubi's pepole had little in common with the mounted fellows, the amaNgwane and the Christians". (p.20)
See also for more explication p. 19 (ed.2006)

Frédéric,

I do have a copy...but not all in my head! Thank you for that recitation. I can see I will have to (re)read further there.

- 6pdr
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:02 pm

ymob wrote:

Keith I. SMITH, the same day
"Julian
I have now done a thorough search of my documents for both NNMC and NNH. The results will confuse, rather than enlighten.

NMC/NNMC
There are two post Isandlwana references in General Orders: Cochrane appointed, GO 32, 12 Feb, and GO 59, 18th March. There are also references in the newspapers, often simply as "Mounted Contingent", cf., Witness, 30th Jan. and Mercury, 22st Jan. and 1st and 17th Feb.

NNH
There are many references here but a couple are significant. Both Raw and Davies, in their Isandlwana statements, refer to their unit as the NNH!
Further, Cochrane himself, in a statement of 4th March, refers to his unit as the NNH, (WO 33/34, Inclosure 10 in No. 96., 4th March). E.S. Browne refers to them with regard to Capt. W. Barton, dated 12th Feb, in WO 32/7387 (Wassall VC), as does Barton himself, (ibid, dated, 11th Feb.). There is also a Return of Troops in the Field showing those at Kranskop dated 6th January, in which they are referenced (PAR, CSO 681, signed by Durnford). See, finally, PAR, CSO 1926, No. 681, a report by J.E. Fannis (at Kranskop) dated 31st Jan.

I now simply would not be able to say just when, or even if, a change of name actually and officially, occurred. "

 scratch  Hell's bells. Is absolutely nothing about this campaign as straightforward as it seems?!  No  Thanks you for that encyclopedic accounting however!  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:30 pm

i

 scratch  Hell's bells.  Is absolutely nothing about this campaign as straightforward as it seems?!  No   Thanks you for that encyclopedic accounting however!  Salute [/quote]

Sorry for "that encyclopedic accounting" but the answer to your question as you know is not easy!!!
Cheers.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 pm

Frédéric,

I do have a copy...but not all in my head!  Thank you for that recitation.  I can see I will have to (re)read further there.

- 6pdr
[/quote]

Sorry...
It was not a reproach! ,  It was not to "write"  the page 19 (if you have a copy of the book)!!!
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:39 am

Frederic
Its wasn't to long ago you said of yourself you didn't have the knowledge to participate in debate. Don't knock yourself my friend you can more than hold your own in any company.
 agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:49 am

springbok9 wrote:
Frederic
Its wasn't to long ago you said of yourself you didn't have the knowledge to participate in debate. Don't knock yourself my friend you can more than hold your own in any company.
 agree 

 Bonjour Springbok,
I persist! 
I have some knowledge (i am studying the battle of isandhlwana since 4 years now), but not enough to make news thesis on the battle....as Julian and you !!!
I am (yet) looking for understand the battle, "the point of view" of the various authors...
Actually, I am studying the "ground", the topography of the battlefield (thanks to 90th and you).  Wink
Thanks for your encouragements.
Apologize to the others members, i am off-topic! Off Topic 

Amitiés.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:14 am

Frederic
Try and get a copy of 'Zulu Battle Piece" by Sir Reginald Coupland. It predates Morris by many years and was I believe the basis on which Morris grafted TWOTS. The beauty about the book however is the selection of photos which records the 'look' of the area some 70 odd years ago before the advent of all the urban development. Quite often when new theories are put forward the opponents of those theories point to the topography and cry 'impossible or implausible'. But look at those old photos and see how much the ground has changed and how much easier the access over the ridge was in those days compared with now.
Understanding the battle is so much easier when understanding the ground conditions then, not now.

Cheers

PS A good example was a couple of years back when I proposed to Mike Snook a possible situation he came back with the comment: 'I suppose they parachuted over the hotel roof.' That was a case of looking at the ground in the wrong time frame.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:22 am

springbok9 wrote:
Frederic
Try and get a copy of 'Zulu Battle Piece" by Sir Reginald Coupland. It predates Morris by many years and was I believe the basis on which Morris grafted TWOTS. The beauty about the book however is the selection of photos which records the 'look' of the area some 70 odd years ago before the advent of all the urban development. Quite often when new theories are put forward the opponents of those theories point to the topography and cry 'impossible or implausible'. But look at those old photos and see how much the ground has changed and how much easier the access over the ridge was in those days compared with now.
Understanding the battle is so much easier when understanding the ground conditions then, not now.

Cheers

Springbok,
I have a copy of "Zulu Battle Piece" by Coupland.
For me, his analysis of the battle is (today) conventionnal and "dated".
But, i shall study the photos.
Thanks you for the information.
Amitiés.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:26 am

I fully agree but the attraction, for me at least, is the photos. Have a look at page 101, last paragraph, let me know what you think about the 'circle of heads'.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:57 am

springbok9 wrote:
I fully agree but the attraction, for me at least, is the photos. Have a look at page 101, last paragraph, let me know what you think about the 'circle of heads'.

Cheers

The circle of heads???
I am intrigued...
At present, i am not at home...I haven't my books at hand.
The terrible testimony of the bugle of the Volunteers troops (or NMP)?
If it is the case, a passionate debate is "in front of us", is waiting for us (Torture?, mutilation, "poors Drummers boys,"qaqa", "ukuhlomula", "intelezi"...)
This evening i  shall research the information in my edition of Coupland.

Cheers.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:00 pm

Its just a sentence that caught my eye a few months back and I haven't pursued it yet. It would be interesting to see where he got it from.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:39 pm

springbok9 wrote:
. Have a look at page 101, last paragraph, let me know what you think about the 'circle of heads'.

Cheers

Springbok,

Bonsoir Springbok,
My copy: Tom Donovan Publishing (1991), introduction by Ian Knight, author of "brave men blood"

p.101 (last paragraph)
"Another visitor to the desolate camp was GLYN. He recognised the bodies of PULLEINE and YOUNGHUSBAND. DURNFORD's body was recognised by one of his men, stripped naked. Dead Zulus were lying "in heaps". Several loose wagon-wheels were scattered about; and round some of them, by a ghastly freak of fancy or savage ritual, the Zulus had laid out a circles of soldiers heads3."

Note 3: c2454, 187 (I.E: Cour of Enquiry for COUPLAND and not "Inquiry") Very Happy 
 
-Quoted in "Isandlwana and RD 22-23 January 1879" by Ian Knight (the "silver book"): 'The trumpeter of the Natal Mounted Police went to his tent and returner with his boots, and a story that he had seen "several wheels lying about, and most of them with the heads of our men pushed round them in a circle".

-Trooper TABORTON (Natal Carbineers) had also his head cut off.

For me, these atrocities are not (religious) ritual.

But i think i don't answer to your enigmatic question!!!  In realty, I do not understand the question!!!! scratch 

The description of DURNFORD body "stripped naked" was a surprise for me.

-I have found nothing on the DURNFORD's body in "Isandhlwana and the DURNFORD papers" by Julian WHYBRA (Studies in the Zulu war 1879" vol.1)

-Quoted in "Zulu Rising" by Ian Knight p.580
'Before DURNFORD's body was buried Offy SHEPSTONE searched through his pockets for personal effects to send to his family. He found a penknife in his pocket, and gently took two rings from the withered fingers".

-Quoted in "the missing and found orders" by Sam STOOPS (a brillant young member of this forum)
Sam STOPPS had written:" the orders in question therefore should still have been on Durnford's person. A pocket knife was later found in his pockets, a treasure to any warrior, clear evidence that DURNFOR's body had removed untouched (...)
From FORBES:"Captain SHEPSTONE recognized him [DURNFORD] at once and identified him yet farther by rings on the finger and a knife with the name on it in the pocket'
From LONGHURST: "I am confident that he had a blue coat", he also added "Capt SHEPSTONE searched the body, and i saw him distinctly take also a packet of letters from his coat pocket"
There are others proofs in this article (DURNFORD was not stripped naked).

Springbok, "Let me know what you think about DURNFORD stripped-naked?. Very Happy 
It would be interesting to see where COUPLAND got it from. Very Happy 

Coupland had made at least one  enormous error for an historian :
p.86 note "A little later,GARDINER[GARDNER]  dispatched a message to Major CLERY:"Heavy firing near left of the camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports that ZULUS are falling back (...) "
The real testimony is "that Basutos are falling back" (and not Zulus)
This error was taken back since by other authors  CLAMMER, DROOGLEVER (sorry "Les"Xhosa 2000") Saul DAVID and others.

As Mister Whybra said: Read the sources, only the sources, not the authors.

Amitiés

Frédéric

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          :

Cheers.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:04 am

Context, so others may follow if they wish.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:05 am

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:07 am

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:09 am




 Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:15 am

Hmmm, i thought we was passed this nonsense!
it just does not stand today..we have Zulu oral
testimony..no mutilations for the sake of it..but,
certainly ' Muti ' harvested according to ritual..
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:17 am

Durnford, stripped naked?. Oxen standing alive?
" Everything was dead to the very metals ".
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:26 am

Thank you for the name check frederic,
but i am embarrassed to be mentioned
in that company..not flattered, embarrassed!
i just study the same as you..we are the same.
you do indeed add to debate as springbok says.
cheers mate
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:16 am

"No. I saw Colonel Durnford returing from the Buffalo River. I didn't see who killed him, but when I returned, Some men from the iNgobamakhosi Regiment were taking some things and they called me over to look at the strange character on his arm. I'll try to find out about the sabre and if I can obtain it, I'll return it."

Source: Mehlokazulu Kasihayo (The Battle Of Isandlwana) 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:28 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Thank you for the name check frederic,
but i am embarrassed to be mentioned
in that company..not flattered, embarrassed!
i just study the same as you..we are the same.
you do indeed add to debate as springbok says.
                                    cheers mate  

Bonjour Les,
I apologize to you.
It was just a bad joke about DROOGLEVER.
You have got a copy of his thesis, i haven't! Mad 
As you say, "we are the same"
No offense, mate!!!  Wink 

Amitiés.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:36 am

Les. How on earth can you be embarrassed about anything, when you come from Manchester?  Very Happy 
Believe it or not I stuck up for you, last week.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:39 am

Les /Frederic.
Over the course of time Ive made a list of items to follow up, such as this sentence. It was for that and in the interests of an interesting bit of research and debate that I brought it up. I do agree Les that we have moved passed the issue of torture etc, my issues at present is trying to actually nail down these little items that have tended to become part of history. So as you, Frederic, have so rightly pointed out, back to the sources. But the original question I posed was: ' What are those sources.' Where did Coupland get it from? Did Drooglever et al copy from Coupland or go back to an original source? Durnford was clothed, that's beyond doubt so who saw him naked? Coupland wasn't there so hes either dredged it from his imagination or sourced it from some where? That's the question posed.

All in the interests of moving debate forward.

Cheers Guys.

PS at least some one agrees on 'Enquiry' Frederic  Very Happy  agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:10 am

Being one of first serious Historians of the Zulu war, Coupland seems to have made quotes without reference, and there wasnt really much written after Couplands research, until Jackson came along which of course changed just about everything. In some respects we could say, Coupland was possibly writing from his minds eye, helps to sell books.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:32 am

Hi LH
You could well be right. But he was a pretty serious historian so my interest really is trying to track down those statements. If that does indeed prove impossible it then adds to the store of knowledge about what is fact and what is fiction. As you rightly point out some of his statements could go either way.
Besides that it fits in with the question you asked: 'What haven't we discussed.'  Salute 

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:43 am

springbok9 wrote:
Over the course of time Ive made a list of items to follow up, such as this sentence. It was for that and in the interests of an interesting bit of research and debate that I brought it up. I do agree Les that we have moved passed the issue of torture etc, my issues at present is trying to actually nail down these little items that have tended to become part of history. So as you, Frederic, have so rightly pointed out, back to the sources. But the original question I posed was: ' What are those sources.' Where did Coupland get it from? Did Drooglever et al copy from Coupland or go back to an original source? Durnford was clothed, that's beyond doubt so who saw him naked? Coupland wasn't there so hes either dredged it from his imagination or sourced it from some where? That's the question posed.

All in the interests of moving debate forward.

Very Happy  agree 

Springbok,
For the curious phrase "the Zulus are falling back", it's interesting to note that Sir COUPLAND had written by mistake GARDINER and not GARDNER...
So, back to the "sources" to find any testimony with the mention "GARDINER"!

Cheers.

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:01 am

Springbok,
So, back to the "sources" to find any testimony with the mention "GARDINER"![/quote]

The "Newfoundlander" 15 July 1879 / "Scenes and incidents in the hospital at Utrecht"
(...) Captain Allan GARDINER, 14 Hussars wounded in the the tihigh on the same day after having unscathed both from Isandalu and the Zlobane. (...)"

So, for some newspapers GARDNER is GARDINER, not very usuful...

Cheers

Fréderic
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:26 am

"DURNFORD's body was recognised by one of his men, stripped naked"

So which one of Durnfords men would this have been? Who ever it was, if indeed he existed, was proven wrong by the statements you have listed. Im still trying to find that source.

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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:41 am

Non! Fredric, cher ami, vous donnez aucune infraction, nous sommes tous sur la
même route, j'ai et je n'ai jamais rien publier sur le AZW.

C'est vrai, je n'ai la thèse Drooglever qui je pense est définitif
compte de la vie AWD, jusqu'à présent, le vrai héros est comme vous le dites sont les chercheurs.
deux dont nous avons appris à connaître un peu!

Éloge de toute nature n'a jamais siégé légèrement avec moi, c'est pourquoi je l'ai dit ce que j'ai fait.
il ya de très bonnes personnes sur ce forum, vous croisez sont l'un de ceux
les gens! Je suis venu pour écouter votre poste de avec attention .. il est évident que vous
avoir un intérêt profond pour l'AZW.
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PostSubject: Re: Uniform Study Zulu Dawn   Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:43 am

I just said to ymob that we share a common interest, and
i look forward to his posts!.
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