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 Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?

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DrummerBoy 16



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PostSubject: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:19 pm

I read ages ago an account i think it was by Cochran that states that Pulleine handed his written orders to Durnford.

Was it him, i can't remember ? Sad 



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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:21 pm

DrummerBoy 16 wrote:
I read ages ago an account i think it was by Cochran that states that Pulleine handed his written orders to Durnford.

Was it him, i can't remember ? Sad 



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Bonsoir Drummer Boy,
Happy to see you again!
It's a "special service officer" who was certainly Cochrane.
Source: " The Cochrane accounts of Isandlwana" by Julian Whybra.
I suppose you have a copy of this essay?
Bien à vous.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:26 pm

ymob wrote:
It's a "special service officer" who was certainly Cochrane.
Source: " The Cochrane accounts of Isandlwana" by Julian Whybra.
Was this published recently?  He said he would have something new about the Cochrane accounts out soon but I wasn't aware it was published yet, if so.  

I've been looking forward to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:17 pm

6pdr wrote:
ymob wrote:
It's a "special service officer" who was certainly Cochrane.
Source: " The Cochrane accounts of Isandlwana" by Julian Whybra.
Was this published recently?  He said he would have something new about the Cochrane accounts out soon but I wasn't aware it was published yet, if so.  

I've been looking forward to it.
Bonjour,
It's the "old" article (editor AZWRS / Adrian Greaves).
As you, il have read that "he (JW) would have something new about the Cochrane accounts"...
Bien à vous.

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:10 pm

ymob wrote:


Bonjour,
It's the "old" article (editor AZWRS / Adrian Greaves).
As you, il have read that "he (JW) would have something new about the Cochrane accounts"...
Bien à vous.

frédéric
You can find the new version of the "Cochrane accounts at Isandlwana" by Julian Whybra in the "studies of the zulu war" vol 2. If you want to purchase a copy search on this forum a recent post of Bill Cainan (BRECON Museum)
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:35 pm

General discussion area-Topic Pvte David Jenkins...-Bill Cainan-Frid 27 Sep
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:24 pm

Why would Pulleine NOT have shown his written orders to Durnford?
Would Pulleine not have been negligent if he hadn't?
Sorry if I am missing the point, but what is the significance in the question?
Either way, the orders were a little vague and would have been invalid by the time Durnford saw them, as Chelmsford had no idea of the unfolding situation when he issued them and these orders would not have been binding on Durnford as far as I can make out. Durnford had his own orders. "To proceed to the camp."
There was no specific order telling Durnford WHAT TO DO, once he had got to the camp, the implication here being that Durnford had the latitude to do as he saw fit from that point on.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:27 pm

kopie wrote:
Why would Pulleine NOT have shown his written orders to Durnford?
Would Pulleine not have been negligent if he hadn't?
Sorry if I am missing the point, but what is the significance in the question.
Bonsoir kopie,
Personnaly, the significance of the question was to know if Clery had really given written orders to Pulleine / just for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:32 pm

Did he not just give a verbal indictaion of his orders to Durnford, They did go into a tent, to discuss certain matters!
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:32 pm

Thanks Ymob Very Happy 

Just found it, it was Stafford

"Colonel Durnford ordered me to accompany him and Captain Shepstone to Col Pulleines tent, which was near the Artillery camp. When we arrived there after Colonel Durnford and Captain Shepstone entered the tent a discussion took place between Durnford and  pulleine (sic) as to seniority. pulleine(sic) in admitting that Durnford was the senior handed him the written instructions."




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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:49 pm

DrummerBoy 16 wrote:
Thanks Ymob Very Happy 

Just found it, it was Stafford

"Colonel Durnford ordered me to accompany him and Captain Shepstone to Col Pulleines tent, which was near the Artillery camp. When we arrived there after Colonel Durnford and Captain Shepstone entered the tent a discussion took place between Durnford and  pulleine (sic) as to seniority. pulleine(sic) in admitting that Durnford was the senior handed him the written instructions."
Nicely done DrummerBoy. I couldn't find it in Cochrane's account. This is interesting because the word "admitting" paints the proceedings in a far different hue from the account which claims Pulleine volunteered the information virtually the moment he met Durnford.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:01 pm

DrummerBoy 16 wrote:

Just found it, it was Stafford
...and a special service officer who was certainly Cochrane.

Well done, Drummer Boy!
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:10 pm

kopie wrote:
Why would Pulleine NOT have shown his written orders to Durnford?
Because gentlemen generally took one another's word.

Quote :
Would Pulleine not have been negligent if he hadn't?
Not unless Durnford insisted upon it or otherwise challenged him.

Quote :
Sorry if I am missing the point, but what is the significance in the question?
Well, there may be none. This is pure supposition but it has been suggested here that the orders MAY have said that while Durnford was superior, Pulleine was to conduct the defense of the camp, regardless. (Durnford was out of favor with Chelmsford and distrusted by others...so the theory goes) This did not place Durnford under Pulleine and thus the latter was free to pursue his own remedies...as he eventually did.

Quote :
Either way, the orders were a little vague and would have been invalid by the time Durnford saw them, as Chelmsford had no idea of the unfolding situation when he issued them and these orders would not have been binding on Durnford as far as I can make out.
I think we can only surmise...unless you take Clery at his word.  He said he left orders with Pulleine to defend the camp...and nothing more...but in any case he wrote them off his own bat without showing them to Chelmsford for approval. Strictly speaking, that makes them a suggestion because Durnford was superior to Clery.  No copy of those orders was found.

Quote :
Durnford had his own orders. "To proceed to the camp." There was no specific order telling Durnford WHAT TO DO, once he had got to the camp, the implication here being that Durnford had the latitude to do as he saw fit from that point on.
There are some on this forum who will dispute that unto their dying breath.  Where you see latitude they see the iron fist of an unyielding military protocol that would call for him to remain there until he receive further instruction.  Many believe that Durnford was anticipating getting further orders from Pulleine...but in the actual event none were forthcoming.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:20 pm

There are some on this forum who will dispute that unto their dying breath. " 6pdr "

I say old boy, steady.. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:27 pm

Bonsoir 6 Pdr,
The Cochrane accounts of Isandlwana by JUlian Whybra (The old essay not the new )
See note 8:
"According to the testimony of a special-service officer who was present (...),Col. Pulleine went into his tent and brought out his written orders, to which Col. Durnford demurred so far as to say,"Well my idea is, that wherever Zulus appear, we ought to attack (...). The special service'officer is almost certainly Cochrane".
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:28 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
There are some on this forum who will dispute that unto their dying breath.
I say old boy, steady..
Xhosa,

Surprised  Trust me, I wasn't referring to myself. Just observed behavior after ~400 posts here...

- 6pdr
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:35 am

6pdr, cool,400 thats impressive.your contribution
enlightens and adds to the overall debate immensely.
i look forwaed to your input with great interest.
cheers xhosa.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:39 am

ymob wrote:
Bonsoir 6 Pdr,
The Cochrane accounts of Isandlwana by JUlian Whybra (The old essay not the new )
See note 8:
"According to the testimony of a special-service officer who was present (...),Col. Pulleine went into his tent and brought out his written orders, to which Col. Durnford demurred so far as to say,"Well my idea is, that wherever Zulus appear, we ought to attack (...). The special service'officer is almost certainly Cochrane".
Merci beaucoup, Frédéric.

So that makes at least two corroborating witnesses.  The use of the word "we" is especially interesting, but like most things about this battle, also forever ambiguous.  To me it does sound more like negotiating or requesting than making an assertion however.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:52 am

Thanks ymob - finally got it.
Great question.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:53 am

I sure I have read an account, which states there was an heated argument between Pulleine and Durnford.

Durnford must have raised the question, for Pulleine to have admitted to who was senior!
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:03 am

Kopie wrote:
Col. Durnford demurred so far as to say,"Well my idea is, that wherever Zulus appear, we ought to attack
So even though the orders to Pullleine were to defend the camp, and would have been binding on Durnford. Durnford had already made up his mind to attack the Zulu if seen. Which would calibrate Raw attacking first.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:08 am

DrummerBoy 16 yes it's THE COCHRANE ACCOUNTS OF ISANDHLWANA in STUDIES IN THE ZULU WAR 1879 II by Julian Whybra

I received there over a week Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:57 am

Durnford would have been expecting to attack small pockets of Zulus in small skirmishes, which would have been a legitimate tactic in the defence of the camp.
No one was expecting to encounter such large numbers of Zulus over the ridge to the North; if Raw really did attack the main Zulu army on seeing them and there is much written to suggest that he did, then Raw was stupid!
He should have doffed his cap, stooped, backed away discretely and gone back to warn the camp as to what he had seen! And that is not speaking with the benefit of hindsight - that is common sense!
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:59 pm

John wrote:
I sure I have read an account, which states there was an heated argument between Pulleine and Durnford.
A primary account? Because it has been repeatedly demonstrated here that there is no shortage of utterly inaccurate secondary accounts. So while you may have read an account that depicts a vigorous dispute, the witness who was most closely placed to the discussion -- Cochrane -- clearly states that there were no high words between them.

John wrote:
Durnford must have raised the question, for Pulleine to have admitted to who was senior!
Why? It's not difficult to imagine a situation where Durnford would raise the question but what basis is there for categorically stating he MUST have done so? At Rorke's Drift the same issue arose and there was no confrontation involved in resolving the issue there.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:00 pm

6pdr wrote:

John wrote:
Durnford must have raised the question, for Pulleine to have admitted to who was senior!

Why? It's not difficult to imagine a situation where Durnford would raise the question but what basis is there for categorically stating he MUST have done so? At Rorke's Drift the same issue arose and there was no confrontation involved in resolving the issue there.
So why go through all that, then say I won't interfere with your command?
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:47 pm

Quote :
So why go through all that, then say I won't interfere with your command?
Go through all what?  Cochrane says that Pulleine raised the issue upon first meeting Durnford OUTSIDE the tent and Durnford reassured him.  AFAIK nobody claims to have seen what went on INSIDE the tent later on.

BTW, the sequence of events is not at all clear during this period.  Some say that after a preliminary discussion Durnford and Pulleine went into the officer's mess, other's the headquarters tent.  But was it the battalion headquarters or Chelmsford's tent? Who exactly was with them?  When exactly did Higginson come and go? When exactly did Brickhill interact with Pulleine and Durnford?  Different historians depict the sequence of events in very different ways, omitting or including things as they see fit.  

It's unclear.  We are considering possibilities.  Springbok asked the question, "WHAT IF Pulleine showed his orders to Durnford and they said that he was to retain command of the camp, regardless?"

I find that an interesting supposition because while Durnford was evidently quite composed with Pulleine, later on, out on the plateau, he behaved petulantly.  Perhaps something occurred inside a tent and perhaps it involved the orders.  We will never know.  But assessing this possibility does NOT mean there was a big dispute between the two men.  In fact, I have not read a single source--credible or otherwise--that claims to have witnessed an argument between them.  It was Melvill who seemed most concerned and IMO he was questioning Durnford's judgement, not his authority.  Even then, Durnford did not respond to him with hostility.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:07 pm

Quote :
So why go through all that, then say I won't interfere with your command?
So, assuming Pulleine was ordered to retain absolute command over the camp, he may have pulled Durnford aside for any number of reasons.

1) He was concerned about the "high handed" way Durnford was being treated. (i.e. because he embarrassed by the order, or he didn't want Durnford to be embarrassed by it.)

2) He had his doubts about the provenance of the orders. (remember, Clery wrote them, not Chelmsford and we don't know what was in them.)

3) He had his doubts about the way the campaign was being conducted. (After all, Chelmsford had just taken over half the force in the camp and left him in charge without so much as stopping by his tent to say, "See ya later."  Major Dunbar and others were already incensed.)

There are plenty of variations on those three themes but I'll leave it there for the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm

Ymob wrote:
According to the testimony of a special-service officer who was present (...),Col. Pulleine went into his tent and brought out his written orders, to which Col. Durnford demurred so far as to say,"Well my idea is, that wherever Zulus appear, we ought to attack (...). The special service'officer is almost certainly Cochrane".
I thought this woud have skirted around. Only to be expected. Anything that adds weight to Durnfords down.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:16 pm

impi wrote:
I thought this woud have skirted around. Only to be expected. Anything that adds weight to Durnfords down.
Well the problem as I see it is this version of "Cochrane" seems to directly contradict Cochrane's first hand testimony.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:28 pm

Most likly this one s true!
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:39 pm

impi wrote:
Ymob wrote:
According to the testimony of a special-service officer who was present (...),Col. Pulleine went into his tent and brought out his written orders, to which Col. Durnford demurred so far as to say,"Well my idea is, that wherever Zulus appear, we ought to attack (...). The special service'officer is almost certainly Cochrane".
I thought this woud have skirted around. Only to be expected. Anything that adds weight to Durnfords down.
Now that's whacked the nail on the head!!! agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:55 pm

impi wrote:
Most likly this one s true!
Maybe both are "true." Maybe this one was Smith-Dorrien, not Cochrane after all. Lots of truths are possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:52 pm

Bit of ducking and diving there 6pdr. It will only be true to those that want it to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:01 am

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Bit of ducking and diving there 6pdr. It will only be true to those that want it to be.
But of course only you know which one.
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:25 pm

6pdr. It's not just one, two were the cause of the diaster. LC was miles away.


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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:39 pm

Nice one CTSG. See the parakeet has learnt well

Cheers
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PostSubject: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?    Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:03 am

Hi Springy .
I think I can see a LOL coming along ! .
90th Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Who saw Pulleine hand over his orders ?   Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:17 am

Joker 
Just the depth that varies mate.
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