| No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. | |
|
+27John Young rusteze nthornton1979 ymob Ray63 DrummerBoy 16 Julian Whybra 6pdr bill cainan Dave barry Neil Aspinshaw John Mr M. Cooper impi littlehand tasker224 Ulundi Chard1879 Chelmsfordthescapegoat ciscokid Frank Allewell Drummer Boy 14 24th garywilson1 90th old historian2 31 posters |
|
Author | Message |
---|
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: No MH Rifles found among the zulu dead at RD Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:04 pm | |
| Chard your point being ? 90th |
|
| |
Ulundi
Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:24 pm | |
| We know Bourne thought the Zulus were using MHR, but do we know what made him think that, he heard the shots I think? |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: No MH Rifles found among the zulu dead at RD Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:54 pm | |
| Ulundi Bourne says he heard the wizz of MH Bullets , he also mentions zulu's looting rifles and ammunition at Isandlwana which he couldnt have possibly known on the day , he was writing or talking many years after the event , and I'm thinking , that having found out later it was the case , it quite probably gave Bourne a ' false Memory ' , '' Oh yes , I remember how I heard them on the day '' . Then if you still think Bourne is firmly creditable , you have to understand that a zulu , as primitive as he was was , say , finds one at 1.30 pm , and his able to use it by 4.30pm on the same day , which would be an outstanding achievement don't you think ? . As I've mentioned previously , none of the wounds described by D.B.Brown ( including Chard's previous post ) mention that Schiess was wounded by a MH round .Hope this clarifies it a little more for you ? 90th |
|
| |
rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:01 pm | |
| Keith Smith made the following point on the RDVC site back in 2006.
"The current consensus is that no MHs were used at Rorke's Drift because the attacking Zulu regiments were the reserve and took no part in the fighting at Isandlwana. It also depends, however, on the route taken by the reserve to get behind Isandlwana hill. Most accounts suggest that the reserve crossed the plateau behind the right horn. Personally, I believe that they crossed the plain behind the 'head' (and I have the primary evidence to back it up). That being so, some few of them might have picked up MHs as they passed over the battlefield, although they would have been very few, if any at all. "
And on Bourne, Peter Ewart said the following (very much along the lines of Gary's reply).
"If Bourne mentioned in his 1936 interview the above point about Dyson & the RE, how reliable is it? Not very, I'd have thought. Any knowledge he had of which Zulu force moved where round the back of Isandlwana or who was in their way at the time can be nothing other than hearsay - second-hand, third-hand or whatever. And to mention it nearly 60 years later also surely detracts from its acceptability. I don't think you can latch on to claims made about things by people who weren't there - and Bourne can only have known Dyson's position from hearsay or later reading."
Peter E also asks whether in fact you can tell the difference simply by hearing the discharge (but no response on that, perhaps Neil has a view?). Otherwise, we come back to the route of the right horn! Over to you Frank.
Steve |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:45 pm | |
| Littlehand Back in 2012 on this thread you wrote in response to a request for the source of Hitch's remark about Zulu Martinis at RD: "Each warrior was carrying a shield with his deadly asssgais in the other hand. Some of them were armed with rifles, recently, taken from our poor comrades who had been ammihilated at Isandlwana, We fired at them in our masses as they advanced, but there was some hesitation. Our shots knocked many of them down, but there were hundreds of them all over the place"
Source: Rorkes Drift. The immortal Anglo-Zulu War." [sic]
Hitch left 3 accounts. I've tried to trace the above quotation but cannot find it. He did write something similar in 1908 but not the exact words above. I'm assuming you're quoting direct from the named secondary work and I'm wondering if the author wrote with some 'artistic licence' here or whether there's a Hitch account I'm not familiar with? If the latter does the author give the source?
Frank Do you happen to have handy the source for the Dabulamanzi buying guns pre-war remarks?? |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:23 am | |
| Julian I'm back in Cape Town on Wednesday, tonight if we beat Australia today. I will revert. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:42 pm | |
| Julian I'm pretty sure it was Mehlokazulu, I will get the exact quote on Wednesday...... if I'm sober, Hell these bloody Aussies can drink ! |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:15 pm | |
| Frank,
Are there any purveyors of sandpaper amongst your drinking companions?
JY |
|
| |
rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:33 pm | |
| Make sure you don't rub them up the wrong way!
Steve |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:13 pm | |
| No worry's, they enjoy getting plastered. |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:14 pm | |
|
The Zulu War Through Contemporary Eyes. Introduced by Bob Carruthers
In this book, Methagazulu. States with reference to the Battle of Isandlwana and MH rifles.
" We ransacked the camp and took away everything we could find; we broken up the ammunition boxes and took out all the cartridges. We practised a great deal at our kraals with th rifles and ammunition. Lots of us had the same sort of rifles as the soldiers used, having brought the in our country, but some who did not know how to use it had to be shown by those who did."
|
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:54 pm | |
| Original statement is in the RE journal I tthink |
|
| |
ADMIN
Posts : 4349 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 64 Location : KENT
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:14 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Littlehand
Back in 2012 on this thread you wrote in response to a request for the source of Hitch's remark about Zulu Martinis at RD: "Each warrior was carrying a shield with his deadly asssgais in the other hand. Some of them were armed with rifles, recently, taken from our poor comrades who had been ammihilated at Isandlwana, We fired at them in our masses as they advanced, but there was some hesitation. Our shots knocked many of them down, but there were hundreds of them all over the place"
Source: Rorkes Drift. The immortal Anglo-Zulu War." [sic]
Hitch left 3 accounts. I've tried to trace the above quotation but cannot find it. He did write something similar in 1908 but not the exact words above. I'm assuming you're quoting direct from the named secondary work and I'm wondering if the author wrote with some 'artistic licence' here or whether there's a Hitch account I'm not familiar with? If the latter does the author give the source?
Frank Do you happen to have handy the source for the Dabulamanzi buying guns pre-war remarks?? Julian click on link below. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:57 pm | |
| The notorious gun trader Mr John Dunn is a good bet for the source of some of the prince's gun's. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]from great zulu commander's by IK. |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:59 pm | |
| Ahh i see what i did there..please swap the two pieces, bottom to the top. |
|
| |
barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Hitch's account Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:04 am | |
| Hi All,
Well,........ there it is. If we don't believe first hand accounts, why believe anything that the survivors reported about the battle. Just write your own version, it is a lot easier . So, because the surgeon did not specifically report on the type of wounds he found on the dead and injured at Rorke's Drift, it does not mean that there were no defenders shot by Mh's there. Further, mention of wounds caused by ball, does not mean spherical lead balls , it, in military terminology means hard projectiles , ie , spire pointed, conical round nose, spherical or hollow pointed, lead or metal core, copper jacketed or not. These are All classed as ball. Most of us who have been under incoming fire can tell very quickly what weapons the enemy is using. This determination comes not only from the crack or bang of the enemy weapon discharging, but also from the effective range and the way the projectile passes over. The source of the Mh's used I believe probably came from the survivors of Isandlwana who were attacked by the impi which was at Rorke's Drift. Remembering that the Mh was a highly prized war trophy by the Zulu and any dropped would have been quickly picked up and taken away by the lucky Zulu who found it. I think too that some of the effective fire on the barricades came in from the caves some 250 metres away, and if so, Mh's were probably used there.
regards
barry |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:12 am | |
| As I said some time ago in a previous post......having got his hands on a newly acquired Martini, it wouldn't make the Zulu a better shot......he would be the same poor shot but with a longer range.....
I have no doubt (but also no evidence) that the odd MH did not make it to RD but the 'owner' probably had very limited ammunition......given time, practice and ammo to practice with, the effectiveness of Zulu fire increased so much that the British commentated on it a few weeks later at Khambula.
He would have followed his tradition of cranking the sights up, to give the shot more power. I would have thought that shooting downhill would be more difficult for an inexperienced shooter (because of the fall of shot?)
Generally, you could say that majority of the British who were shot at RD should not 'take it personally' - the shooter wasn't aiming at you and it was all down to luck......
Cheers
Sime
|
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 am | |
| Simon I think part of the thinking is that 1) The Zulu were in possession of the MH before the battle 2) Some COULD have been picked up on the battlefield, along with ammunition. 3) Dabulamanzi was a pretty good shot and would have passed on that knowledge in training some of his men. Before point 2 is hammered by history ( none of the Zulu were involved at iSandlwana) read the descriptions carefully when the men on the Oskaberg describe looking across at the saddle and seeing 4 regiments lined up and starting to advance towards RD. Did the reserve travel all the way around iSandlwana way to the North and then West only to climb back up the slope from the Manzimyama to re form on the saddle? Even if they did do the improbable they would have found quite a number of MH and a vast quantity of ammo. I think Barry once mentioned 400 000 rounds. I think Fynn once made the point that the Zulu were under the impression that the harder the trigger was pulled the better the bullet flew. Yet again Ive never heard a satisfactory explanation as to why MH rounds were found in the caves! It will take a very brave man to categorically state that very definitely there were no MH fired by the Zulu at RD. |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:29 am | |
| Hi Frank,
I am becoming more and more convinced that the reserve followed the chest/left horn on to the plain and advanced through the camp to the saddle.....GHB mentions a large Zulu force between him and the camp - stationary (was it) on the plain.....but that is another story.....
Its a pity that the famous 'Coronation' photos of Dab were not take a few years later - he may have had a MH in them.
Whilst I can imagine rich powerful Zulus (or their 'favourites') having gotten their hands on a MH through trade, I am not sure about many of the 'rankers'.....somewhere I read the cost of firearms (in cattle & sheep) but I can not remember where.
Somewhere there is mention of the number of fire arms entering Zululand from Portuguese territory, broken down into obsolete and modern weapons etc - but what modern means.....Sniders? I spose MHs had been around (in service) for 8 years, so some could have made it on to the 19th Century e-bay.......
Just out of interest Barry - would the report of a Snider differ from a MH - similar sized/shape bullet etc.....I do not know myself.....maybe Neil knows.....
Cheers
Sime
|
|
| |
barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: MH vs Snider Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:17 am | |
| Hi SRB,
In reply: although the two weapons, ie MH /Snider are nominally the same calibre,.577/455) some colonial units had these and may have been picked up on the battlefield. The cartridges are similar but not the same, the former being the longer of the two. The MH cartridge was first manufactured from rolled brass, changing, for the better, later, to drawn brass cases. Now as the barrel length, as in an organ pipe, quite literally sets the tone and decibels ( ie the kaboom), to the trained ear there will be a discernable difference sufficient to discriminate one from the other. Other ballistic factors come in here too involving barrel oscillation after firing, spin of the bullet, ie the longer barrel imparting more spin( thus enhancing accuracy) to the fired projectile. The Mh could loft its bullet over some kilometres. Not too accurately however as measured in the MH Sandy Hook trials. In terms of ammunition available on the Isandlwana battlefield there was upward of 400k MH rounds which was the entire 1,2/24 battalion reserves in their boxes as well as all the NMP ,NC and NNH reserves which the enemy captured . Thus the total lost probably totaled upward of 500k
regards
barry
Last edited by barry on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:39 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:56 am | |
| Hi
Sorry Barry. I mislead you, I was referring to the Snider (Enfield) rifle - the previous issue for the British Army - which the Zulus would have had more access to. Sorry for the confusion.
Looking at the two weapons (albeit on the internet) there seems very little difference - 50ft/s extra muzzle velocity of the MH, but (?) greater range with the Snider Enfield..... greater rate of fire of the MH and 7 groves to the MH rifling and only 3 to the SE and presumably a greater 'twist' with the MH - improving accuracy.
A report from 1878 suggested 20000 guns in Zulu hands in 1879. Estimated to be 500 modern breech loaders, 2500 percussion muskets and the rest flintlocks of which many were in poor condition.
If the famous 'coronation picture' (JY collection) shows the Prince and three retainers with double barrelled weapons and 2 retainers have (muzzle loading?) rifles
Sime |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:58 pm | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Published in Judy 5th March 1879. (John Young Collection.)Finger-pointing by the satirical press as to the source of the Zulu firearms. JY |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:43 am | |
| Very droll JY. almost like it was all planned! that poor independent sovereign nation.. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:21 am | |
| Dont just blame the arms dealers bringing in from Mozambique. When a laborors contract on the mines was ended he was given a gun as part of his wages. And that was to the Zulu, Suthu Xhosa and Swazi plus all the other tribes so a touch of imperial machination. |
|
| |
barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: Gun running to the Zulus Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:00 am | |
| Hi All,
There was quite an epidemic of gun running at that time, not only from over the border but via clandestine shipments being brought in at night directly onto the Zululand coast, from sailing ships ,around the St Lucia area. The weapons involved were generally those of, European manufacture, but technologicaly retired. The price was about 3 B/ pounds each, roughly equal to the cost of one head of cattle. Complicit in this black market trade were some well known agents, who were very friendly with the Zulus. Some Christian missionaries living near the coast were held in high suspicion over this matter too.
regards
barry |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:05 am | |
| Up early this morning Barry? Watching the 7's |
|
| |
barry
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
| Subject: The 7's Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:11 am | |
| Hi Frank,
Yes , are you keeping well?
regards
barry |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:58 am | |
| I often wonder if Jim Rorke dabbled.......maybe if not in actual 'gun running' because of his role in the BBG but maybe "sourcing pieces for discerning collectors" .......
cheers
Sime |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:49 pm | |
| Sime,
I make a point about Jim Rorke in my Rorke’s Drift talk: Rorke volunteered, and became a First Lieutenant in the Buffalo Border Guard. One of the tasks of the Buffalo Border Guard was to prevent the running of guns into KwaZulu, a task that Rorke must have found difficult to enforce.
JY |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:10 pm | |
| John,
At the time (prior to 1879) was it illegal to sell guns to the Zulus or did the 'authorities' just frown on large scale gun running?
I spose the BBG was not helped by the fact that there were only around 30 of them.....and a lot of Buffalo Border......
Cheers
Sime |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:52 pm | |
| Sime,
Technically as Zululand was a sovereign kingdom, British control obviously did not extend there. Hence it was possible for King Cetshwayo to have managed to acquire a firearm of some description for every man in his army.
The uprising of Langalibalele of the amaHlubi, had its roots in the possession of firearms by Africans within the Colony of Natal. I think fear played a great factor within Natal that just across the watery divide were thousands of warriors with firearms. That fear was stirred-up without doubt by Frere’s machinations when he appeared on the scene.
Gun-running in the mid-1870’s rates a mention in H. P. Holt’s The Mounted Police of Natal. Bertram Mitford actually wrote a historical novel The Gun-Runner about it in 1896.
JY |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:49 am | |
| Hi John,
I once read in a book, that the British firing lines at Isandlwana, may have 'lost' the fire fight with the Zulus - not obviously based on accuracy but by weight of fire coming back at them and mounting casualties.
Firearms in the Zulu army have always been played down, as something they carried, shot and then discarded, in favour of melee.
I wonder had the Zulu Kingdom lasted (undisturbed) another couple of decades and weapon availability (& quality) increased - would the Zulu army relied less on the old methods and have started to evolve more skirmishing tactics, similar to the Xhosa?
Cheers
Sime |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:06 pm | |
| Sime,
The current keepers of the inherited oral history of Prince Shingana kaMpande once described to me how their forebear commanded one hundred and fifty riflemen at the Battle of iSandlwana.
They told me how those riflemen crawled forwards through the long grass towards the centre of the British line. On reaching that position they fired a controlled volley into the British ranks, inflicting heavy casualties on the British forces.
There those on this forum who have doubts on the value of Zulu oral history, but the story appears to be corroborated by John Laband's in his work 'Rope of Sand', in which he mentions that Prince Shingana commanded one hundred and twenty riflemen at iSandlwana.
Prince Shingana like his brother Prince Dabulamanzi was well versed in the use of firearms, in fact he was still using them with some effect against the British until 1888, refusing to accept the surrender of 1879.
JY
Last edited by John Young on Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:52 pm | |
| Hi John,
I have read about Prince Shingana, a couple of days ago and his 'rifle' detachment.
I have not read Rope of Sand but I wonder what source he used.
I have always held oral history in some respect - whilst not within living memory, it may be in the memory of Grandfathers and whilst in the west - written 'evidence' is the norm but in more 'primitive' (no disrespect intended) oral tradition is very important and usually well kept.
Have you ever thought about compiling the oral history into an essay/book along with corroborative evidence?
Cheers
Simon |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:06 am | |
| Oxymoron: If Oral history is written down does it remain Oral history? There was a discussion some time ago on the forum about the degree of awareness amongst the Zulu of the impact of firearms. I was shot down.
Cheers |
|
| |
Brett Hendey
Posts : 269 Join date : 2010-12-02 Location : Kloof, KZN
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:16 am | |
| The combination of firearms and assegais was used by the Zulus in the 1906 Natal Rebellion. For example in an account of the Mpanza ambush of a Natal Police escort of civilians, Barry's granddad wrote: The Zulus "waited until the advance guard was abreast of them, and then fired a volley, wounding several horses and one man. The volley was followed by a rush of natives, who used their assegais with considerable effect." (The Nongqai, p. 877)
Brett |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:05 am | |
| - Frank Allewell wrote:
- Oxymoron: If Oral history is written down does it remain Oral history?
There was a discussion some time ago on the forum about the degree of awareness amongst the Zulu of the impact of firearms. I was shot down.
Cheers Hmmmm interesting question.......would it be a written record of an oral history? I never thought of that.....I'm sure there must be an answer Were you shot down by a Martini Henry from a cave or a smoothbore from the bushes.....? Was the weapon supplied by gun runners.....? Questions, questions, questions...... I believe that the Zulu army was evolving constantly - reacting to enemies.......and would have (given time) followed a similar path to the Matebele - whose King went to some lengths to acquire a large number of (at the time 'fairly') modern Martinis. Supposedly (at times) the British during WW1 advanced through NML with unloaded weapons because the High Command did not want them to stall and get engaged in a fire fight...... Along the same lines - once the Zulus (if they had) got large numbers of fire arms - the emphasis would have been less of close combat (at least initially in the engagement) but more on ranged combat - if you can not hit from a distance you have no choice but to close......and I feel they would have been less aggressive in the field....... One thing I have wondered is - would shields have become obsolete - at least with firearm equipped Zulus......could you 'skirmish' dragging a shield along with you (obviously they would have kept an assegai thing) - its a bit of an encumbrance. Cheers Sime |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:18 pm | |
| No shot down by an Aussie and a bloke from Manchester ( who is probably not on speaking terms with anyone this morning as his team were beaten yesterday by the boys in red)
Cheers |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:26 pm | |
| |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:31 pm | |
| - Frank Allewell wrote:
- No shot down by an Aussie and a bloke from Manchester ( who is probably not on speaking terms with anyone this morning as his team were beaten yesterday by the boys in red)
Cheers Hmmm....not that I am a fan of 'the beautiful game'.....my interest only peeks during the brief time England hold out in the World Cup or Euro's (before they are beaten by some footballing giants, like Iceland) but it was a bit of surprise....... |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:33 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
- Both still readily available..
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I have read neither of those Xhosa - which would you recommend? |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: No MH Rifles found among the dead at RD Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:37 pm | |
| Sime anything by Laband is well worth reading , ' Rope Of Sand ' can be a little expensive . 90th |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:44 pm | |
| But without doubt the best
Last edited by Frank Allewell on Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| |
rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:45 pm | |
| Are they not the same book - different title?
Steve Reinstadtler |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:56 pm | |
| I quite like Labands writing - I have few essays/articles I have downloaded, over the years.
I have consulted my book supplier (i.e. e-Bay) and I can only find them in Franks 'back yard' at the moment......and the shipping is a bit much, for one of meagre budget and great carefulness.
I will look later....I have been conscripted into taking the kids swimming - in emulation of Uttoxeter's other famous son - Adam Peaty......which is very unfair, because I can't swim and I just stand there like Poseidon in "Jason & the Argonauts" whilst they flail and splash in the water.....and Mrs SRB1965 swims around like Esther Williams.......
Cheers
Sime
ps it saves having to worry about bathing them I spose....... |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:59 pm | |
| |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:02 pm | |
| Sime,
Take a look on abebooks.co.uk the paperback is available on there for just over £2, plus postage.
JY |
|
| |
xhosa2000
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:54 pm | |
| This bloke from manchester is gutted beyond reason.. but that's the way the mop flop's, that's football, there is alway's the next game. |
|
| |
SRB1965
Posts : 1199 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:52 pm | |
| Thanks JY
Managed to pick a hard back copy up for just under a fiver.
I prefer hard backs - they have a greater affect on the cats or kids, if I launch it at them......
Cheers
Simon |
|
| |
John Young
Posts : 3230 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:12 pm | |
| |
|
| |
| No Martini Henry Rifles Found Among The Zulu Dead At Rorkes Drift. | |
|