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 Cavalry at Isandlwana.

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90th

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PostSubject: Cavalry at Isandlwana    Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:11 am

Impi .
Are you really that vague ! I'm not talking about the damn C.O.E !!! . Go back and read Littlehands post where he ( Littlehand ) clearly states
'' Glynn pushed the issue '' ! . I dont see how you cant see this ! . I wish to know how Littlehand came to that assumption !
I asked him , he said it was primary evidence ! , Crealock does state that he himself WASN'T PRESENT ! . The contents of the second message was what made LC get up and go , nothing to do with a converstion from Glynn , there is no such information that Glynn talked LC into leaving the camp ! . I cant believe I'm still having this simplistic conversation with you !
No . Unbelievable comes to mind . Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:39 pm

Littlehands quote
Extract from Statement of Lieutenant-Colonel J. North Crealock, Acting Military Secretary.

"I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No." The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford

Im really trying to get my head around what the discussion is about.

In Littlehands Quote there are two separate time frames.
The first is when Chelmsford and entourage where on a scouting mission on the Nyoni ridge. Gossett and Buller arrived with the message from Dartnell saying in effect that he intended to attack in the morning. There is no record of the conversation, even Milne doesn't refer to it, neither does Clery.
Crealock however does recall a very simple conversation and question, Clery has asked if Dartnell is to be reinforced, Chelmsford says no. Theres nothing in there that records Glyn pushing for an advance. Walsh then takes supplies to Dartnell as requested, in that missive Dartnell has indicated he wishes to attack in the morning.

During the evening Dartnell realises that his NNC will not stand up to a Zulu regiment and accordingly asks for two companies as support.
Lt Wash makes yet another ride back to camp and is directed to Clery. He reads the message and wakes up his superior, Glyn, who directs that the message be refered to the General ( this is all in Clery's statement ). As Clery says"

I took this at this at once to Colonel Glyn who simple said I must take it to the General. ( Note: No instruction given about representation for any action)
The Generals tent was close by, so I roused him up. Lying on my face and hand close by his camp bed I can still remember how I read from that crumpled piece of notebook written across in pencil, word after word what I had prieviously had such difficulty in deciphering in my own tent."

"The General did not hesitate much. he said: "Order up Colonel Durnford with the troops he had to reinforce that camp. This was overheard by Crealock in the next tent, so he joined in by asking (very properly I think), Is Major Clery to issue the orders to Colonel Durnford? - for Durnford's was an independent command hitherto. So the General said, 'No, let you do it."

Sorry but I cant find any mention of any intervention by Glyn. Crealock is quite right in that the communication from Dartnell came via Glyn to Chelmsford, but we are taking that sentence out of context. It wasn't a request from Glyn merely a passing of a request from Dartnell.

Hope that clears some very muddy waters. Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:58 pm

Thans Springbok. You are correct. 

I only posted a response to kopie's question. That being LC wasn't quick to charge into the Zulu's, as he said no to assisting Dartnell. I followed that up, by posting Crealocks account, that was the entirety of by participation. 


Apart from saying those who wish to speculate, can be my guest.  
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:21 pm

LH
Exactly what I thought, the waters were just getting muddy, and your right Chelmsford left when he was asked for reinforcements.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:59 pm

impi wrote:
We would need to know, what Glyn said, to change LC mind. We don't.
Impi,

So far as I can tell, and you have written nothing here to claim otherwise, this was an exchange between Clery and Chelmsford...that Crealock passed on into the historical record. There is no indication here ANYWHERE that Glyn said anything to change the General's mind. He is cast as passing on "a representation" (probably a written message) from a third party. That is all.

Supposing he might have done otherwise is known as SUPPOSITION.

I have no idea where the "PUSHED IT" came from either. To claim that without evidence is straying from fact. The words here do not indicate any pushing.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:14 pm

Just coincidence but I was struck by two things here:
springbok9 wrote:
During the evening Dartnell realises that his NNC will not stand up to a Zulu regiment and accordingly asks for two companies as support.
I wonder if he wanted the same two companies that Durnford requested? Wink In the event he seems to have received a great deal more.

Quote :
"The General did not hesitate much. he said: "Order up Colonel Durnford with the troops he had to reinforce that camp.
That testimony might even be read by some of us as indicating that, in fact, the General was anxious to rush out into the night with half the force or more in the camp.

- 6pdr
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:44 pm

All re, the subject of Glyn, he was
superseded when his lordship atta-
ched him self to the third column,
effectively relieving him of command,
he only had regimental duties from
there in, any command decisions
went straight through Crealock who
blocked any representation's to
his lordship. everything went to
crealock in the first instance, my
point is Glyn has very little say. and
when Dartnell's message was brought
to him, passes in on to the Gen with
out comment.

In the aftermath of Isandhlwana Glyn
had a quiet nervous breakdown, but
still had the nous to reply to his lord-
ships attempt to smear him. " odd
the general asking me. what he already
knows" ( my paraphrase )   xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:35 am

littlehand wrote:
90th wrote:
Hi CTSG
You wrote ... '' Correct unorganised chaos ! No plan of deployment . He rode out to meet the zulu's . If we see the zulus we should attack them '' . .....
LC did nothing different , he could'nt wait to leave the camp and join Dartnell , never left appropriate orders for others or even worse , left it for others to do ! , he also had no plan of deployment , his and Dartnell's forces were spread far and wide , and it was LC who initially said we need to crush them in one blow , it was LC who was afraid the zulu army wouldnt attack ! .
Cheers 90th Shocked 
Actually. LC refused at first to assist Dartnell. It was Glyn who pushed the issue!


Possibly this is the post you refer to?

Cheers
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PostSubject: Cavalry at Isandlwana    Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:50 am

Well done Springy ! . There you go Impi , even you should be able to see it now ? ..................Surely ? .
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:55 am

Right so where's the problem. LH posted Crealocks statement confirming Glyn made the representation that pushed LC to assist Dartnell. 

You miss interpreted, the word "pushed"
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PostSubject: Cavalry at Isandlwana    Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:11 pm

IMPI
I'm sure I did , as it couldnt be you , could it ?. No  No . If you cant see that Littlehands statement is pure speculation , I'm afraid my dear Impi , there's a strong chance you arent playing with a full deck my friend  Sad  Sad . If you slow down and carefully take notice , look at  the comment again , you'll see it was LH who posted the comment BENEATH my highlighted statement . Just go slowly and give it some time to sink in , I promise it wont hurt ! , you'll pick it up eventually .....................Hopefully ?? . Hope springs eternal my special friend ! . Salute LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:58 pm

It developed is on this page.


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CTSG: Subject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.    Tue 22 Oct 2013 - 7:44 Subject: Cavalry at
90TH: Tue 22 Oct 2013 - 12:16
LH: Subject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.    Wed 23 Oct 2013 - 9:59
Kopie: Subject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.    Wed 23 Oct 2013 - 10:25
LH: Subject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.    Wed 23 Oct 2013 - 10:27
LH: Subject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.    Wed 23 Oct 2013 - 10:31
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:07 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
6pdr wrote:

I believe he sent 2/3rds of Zikali's troops against the right horn and Hlubi's horse and the Edendale contingent against the left horn, albeit unwittingly. In any case, they were not sufficient to the task despite occupying favorable terrain. What "sensible" deployment would have turned the tide exactly?
Correct unorganised chaos! No plan of deployment. He rode out to meet the Zulu's. As he said, if we seen the Zulus we should attack them. 
90th wrote:
Hi CTSG
You wrote ... '' Correct unorganised chaos ! No plan of deployment . He rode out to meet the zulu's . If we see the zulus we should attack them '' . .....
LC did nothing different , he could'nt wait to leave the camp and join Dartnell , never left appropriate orders for others or even worse , left it for others to do ! , he also had no plan of deployment , his and Dartnell's forces were spread far and wide , and it was LC who initially said we need to crush them in one blow , it was LC who was afraid the zulu army wouldnt attack ! .
Cheers 90th Shocked 
littlehand wrote:
90th wrote:
Hi CTSG
You wrote ... '' Correct unorganised chaos ! No plan of deployment . He rode out to meet the zulu's . If we see the zulus we should attack them '' . .....
LC did nothing different , he could'nt wait to leave the camp and join Dartnell , never left appropriate orders for others or even worse , left it for others to do ! , he also had no plan of deployment , his and Dartnell's forces were spread far and wide , and it was LC who initially said we need to crush them in one blow , it was LC who was afraid the zulu army wouldnt attack ! .
Cheers 90th Shocked 
Actually. LC refused at first to assist Dartnell. It was Glyn who pushed the issue!
kopie wrote:
I think "refused to assist" is a bit of an exaggeration; he merely wasn't convinced. Glyn convinced LC it was worth doing, LC made the decision - he was in charge.
I can't see LC as being the kind of man who'd be pushed around by any of his inferiors.
The decision to split and chase the Zulus was Chelmsford's.
littlehand wrote:
Nope! He refused!
littlehand wrote:
Extract from Statement of Lieutenant-Colonel J. North Crealock, Acting Military Secretary.

"I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."  The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford."
90th wrote:
I'm with those that think Cavalry wouldnt have made a difference . The weight of numbers and the stage of the war,  it to me , seems unlikely that the zulu would've caved in . But we'll never know . Salute . Lets not forget that our old mate LC would more than likely have taken them with him when he debunked to find the zulu army early on the morning of the 22nd .

Littlehand

LC didnt think it was worthwhile to go to Dartnell for the simple fact he ( LC )  didnt know the amount of zulus that were believed
to be confronting Dartnell at that earlier stage , but , after he received the message at 2am or whatever time , the mere mention that many zulu's were believed to be in Dartnell's area , our LC couldnt wait to head off and become involved ! .
Surely you can see that CTSG has blamed  
Durnford for riding off to attack the wily zulu , where the good LC did exactly the same thing ! , and at night ! .
90th


90th wrote:
I also went through  ' Lord Chelmesford's Zululand Campaign 1878-79 ' by Laband . The good LC makes no claims or statements that Glynn persuaded him to ride out and help Dartnell . Littlehand , I think you stating that Glynn forced the issue is incorrect . As LC was trying to cover his own backside in the aftermath of Isandlwana , you can take it , that had Glynn persuaded him to go to Dartnell's assistance he ( LC ) would surely have said so to help deflect the blame . As this didnt happen , I doubt Glynn had any input whatsoever . LC certainly ran the campaign as he saw fit , he wasnt known for listening to others ! . And no John , that isnt speculation as its well known LC ran the show it's in several books that this is the case ! .
90th  
What I don't think 90th has realised, is that LH Only posted Crealock's Statement that shows LC saying "NO" when first asked to assist.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:58 pm

Quote :
What I don't think 90th has realised, is that LH Only posted Crealock's Statement that shows LC saying "NO" when first asked to assist.
Here are Littlehand's posts in sequential order:

Quote :
Actually. LC refused at first to assist Dartnell. It was Glyn who pushed the issue!
LH makes his main argument that Chelmsford was hesitant to send troops to Dartnell. He goes on to assert Glyn took an active role in reversing that decision.

littlehand wrote:
Nope! He refused!
This comment is made wrt to Chelmsford's initial (perceived) reluctance to send reinforcements, as above.

littlehand wrote:
Extract from Statement of Lieutenant-Colonel J. North Crealock, Acting Military Secretary.

"I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."  The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford."
This has already been parsed as a conversation between Clery and Chelmsford that Crealock overheard. Crealock says he "believes" Glyn passed on a message.  There is absolutely no indication here that Glyn pressured Chelmsford to send reinforcements...and indeed Crealock is hesitant to even express certainty about Glyn's more limited role.

littlehand wrote:
" Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."
I can't see how anything else can be read into this. Its clear. He said "NO" It's primary source.
LH now retreats to his primary assertion which is that Chelmsford was originally against sending troops to Dartnell/Lonsdale.  This retreat however does not change the fact that he tried to get away with claiming Glyn played an active role in the reinforcements being sent.

BTW, I like and respect Littlehand.  He works hard to provide this board with a great deal of primary evidence.  IMO this board is the better for it.  As someone who has been forced to reconsider arguments myself, I don't have a problem with that.  The reason I am going to all this effort is the comments made downstream from Littlehand by people who seem to have a very tenuous grasp on reality, or simply don't care to burden themselves with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:31 pm

Okay. In layman's terms.

Message to LC. from Major Dartnell who is requesting reinforcements, he's found the Zulu army. 

LC clearly states "NO"

Glyn, states his case as to why they should go. ( No one know's what Glyn said? 

LC concedes and leaves to assist Dartnell. 

Crealock although not present, made the information available at the C.O.E 

So in nut shell, Glyn pushed for LC to assist Dartnell!
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:47 pm

impi wrote:
Glyn, states his case as to why they should go. ( No one know's what Glyn said? 

LC concedes and leaves to assist Dartnell...So in nut shell, Glyn pushed for LC to assist Dartnell!
OK, Littlehand is not saying this. This is you Impi, climbing out alone ever further on a limb without a shred of evidence...which I see you have done in the Elizabeth Butler thread as well. Now, for better or worse, it's absolutely clear who and what we are dealing with... Enjoy living in your own private Idaho!
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PostSubject: Cavalry at iSandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:54 pm

impi.

It was the message brought by Walsh that changed LC's mind, not Glyn.

Glyn did not 'push' for anything, he merely handled the message to be forwarded to LC, it was the content of the message that 'pushed' LC, not Glyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Cavalry at Isandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:04 pm

But we have to agree, whatever Glyn said, caused fresh orders to be sent to Durnford.
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PostSubject: Cavalry at iSandlwana.   Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:19 pm

Dave.

It was the content of the message brought by Walsh that prompted LC to change his mind about assisting Dartnell, and also request that Col Durnford should move up to the camp, I don't think Glyn even had any say in the matter.

The message brought by Walsh was handed to various officers including Glyn before getting to LC, and it is the way that Crealock has worded these events that seems to be confusing everyone.
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