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 Top points of disagreement between historians/authors

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dlancast

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PostSubject: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:24 pm

I was wondering what forum members consider the top ten(not to limit the list) points are that historians/authrors seem to disagree on in the AZW.  I know that I have 70 - 80 books, articles etc and smetimes it is confusing to get at the real truth of the matter (if that is even possible).  Some examples might be
* Was Chelmsford lured out?
* Where did the main Impi stay the night before the battle?
* What do you think?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:33 pm

dlancast,

There's the old chestnut of the ammunition supply to the firing-line.

The number of European survivors of iSandlwana is still a bone of contention for some.

The number of the garrison at Rorke's Drift, obviously including who was/was not there.

Just a few for starters.

JY
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:02 pm

M&C is another!  Along with the VC question?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:24 pm

Was David Jenkins at RD:suspect: 
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:48 pm


Was David Jenkins at RD Suspect 

24th, not long now, we can wait
another four day's, look forward
to your counter view's.
Neutral  cheers xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:59 pm

Carey and Harvard.
who bungled at
Hlobane. how much
cattle was actually
' lifted ' who got
what?..
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:06 pm

I would like to chip in with one or two fairly obvious and long argued disagreements.

1. Was Chelmsford right right to split his force prior to Isandhlwana?

2. Was the loss of Isandhlwana Chelmsford's fault? Or was it Durnford's fault?

3. Did Lord Chelmsford scapegoat a dead man (Durnford) for the loss of Isandhlwana in order to save his own neck?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:39 pm

Did the Zulus really intend to attack on the 23rd Jan.


Why did Chelmsford really stop Harness from moving to the camp ?




Why did Chelmsford want Harness on the panel of the court of enquiry ? 
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:52 pm

impi.yes! Very Happy  could fill the page with a lot
of these Suspect  question was the
' cover up ' a pre thought contingency
stratagem. Hmmm. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:19 am

dlancast wrote: ".... confusing to get at the real truth of the matter (That is if even possible)."

This is true dlancast, the more you read, the less you know, because like many other battles, 99% of authors copy each other ...

Not counting, the authors having written of the .....

You just have to read the books of Messrs. David Jackson and Julian Whybra and thou shalt make savings of time and money by being as close to the truth ...

Cheers

Pascal

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:41 pm

Ian Knight's books would be the best bet!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:16 pm

Admin. Can we stop this dropping of authors names, and who writes the best books. Looking historically the only thing this achieves is bringing discussions to a halt. Use their material to base an argument, but not to score brownie points. John young, never pluggs his book, he just joins in the discussions and produces excellent photographs. There are no books out there that can tell us what happen at Isandlwana. We already know. Jackson's maybe the best to some, but his book can't tell us anything other books can't. 

Springboks app, gives a better overview of the battlefield and who was where, than any book I have!
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:24 pm



Springboks app, gives a better overview of the battlefield and who was where, than any book I have![/quote]
Bonsoir,
Maybe, YOU haven't got the " Best" books? Very Happy 
( no offense for Springboks).
Cheers.
Frédéric
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:32 pm

Ymob  Which one would you recommend. I would be interesting in one that gives photographic views of the battlefield, with a detailed overview of what took place at that particular point.
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:17 pm

cstg, just curious, but are you a book
collector? there is no reason, of course
why you should be, your sources are as
valid as any, but fredric's repost made
me smile,then wonder. cheers xhosa
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:39 am

I would be interesting in one that gives photographic views of the battlefield, with a detailed overview of what took place at that particular point.[/quote]


Bonsoir Littlehand,

For the battle of Isandhlwana, I am agree with "Chelsmfordthescapegoat", "Springboks" can made this sort of books -Seriously.
One day, it seems to me that Springbok had said that he is writing "a different book" on this battle...
There is on the web, a "free" site that gives many photographic views of the battlefield and describes what took place at that particular point (with only few errors). Sorry, at this moment, i don't recall the link.
For me, there is not "this sort of book" specific on the battle of Isandhlwana.
On this subject, il only have a copy of "sort of guidebook" to the AZW battlefields as:
"The illustraded guide to the AZW" by John Laband and Paul Thompson;
"Then and Now" by Ian Knight;
"Guidebook to the AZW battlefields" by David Rattray;
-Two booklets: "Isandlwana" and "Rorke's Drift" by Ian Knight and Ian Castle (collection: Battleground south africa).

For "books" (and not essay) on the battle of Isandhlwana, it's a very delicate question (and answer).
- "The Hill of the Sphinx" by FWD Jackson (academic research);
-Zulu Rising"(and the "silver book" for the photos) by Ian Knight ;
-For the "debate": "Zulu victory" by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill;
- For the "fiction": (no offense)"How can men ..." by Mike Snook and "The washing of the spears" by Morris.

After, they are books interesting on "specific point"of the battle of Isandhlwana:
-On the losses and survivors: Whybra, Young, Holme;
- On the Zulu: Laband-Knight-Smith...
- On the NNC:Thompson-Smith...
- On Durnford:Drooglever, Snook...
- On the 24th : Gon...
- On Chelsmford- Laband...
- On the NMP: Holt;
- On diaries, journals or comtemporary sources: HARFORD, HAMILTON BROWNE, NEWHAM-DAVIS, HALLAM-PARR, CURLING, SMITH-DORRIEN, (MOODIE, EMERY)...
- etc....
I suppose Sonia Clarke is a very good author (two books too expansive for me!!!).
It's just an opinion.


Cheers.

Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:03 am

Theres a couple of different ways of looking at the Battlefields.
1)For the person who wants to know the battlefield and where everything took place in chronological order with effectively a diorama. Then the more photos and maps the better.

2)Then there is the more serious/studious that wants to know WHY not Where. The minutae of decisions, who made them, why they were made.

3)Then there are the speculative who attempt to find solutions to fit the puzzles.

The books that are often quoted can be slotted into those categories. My app was born out of this forum and the numbers of members that wont ever get to the battlefields and so need a more visual picture of the events. I would therefore fit into the first category I suppose. As would Ian Knights: Then and Now and the various battlefield guides.

For the second, there are the really serious publications from Whybra, Jackson, Knight Smith et al.

The third would encompass the likes of Snook Quantrill etc.

Every one of those 3 are important in trying to get a view of this bloody battle. But I don't believe you can compare one section with another, they all fill a void.

Ymob
No offence taken mate. Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 am

Everyone's opinion, but to save time and money, and I always say to those who say contacts me, or come see to my hordes of figures, if they want to imitate me or if they simply are interested by the Zulu war, they must purchase priority "Hill of the Sphinx" and all that Julian has published, so they save time and money ...

I show them these books and when they see that they are in, they all regret all their purchases of precedents books on this war ...

After having contacted me, like many, they realize that they have put the cart before the horse ...

This is where it ends ...

Regarding color photos ... Too bad there is not have to get the possibility of color pictures in 1879 ...

We could compare them with those made in XX and XXI th centuries, still a good opportunity to laugh ...

This is where it ends ...

Pascal
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:59 am

Ymob
No offence taken mate.
Salute [/quote] 
 
 
Bonjour Springbok,
 
No problem for me...and I am totally agree with you!!!
And your project of a "different book" on the battle of Isandhlwana?
 
Cheers.
 
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Top points of disagreement between historians/authors   Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:08 pm

In fact color photos on the battlefields in Zululand, there are plenty on the internet ...

No utilities except for the South African tourism, because the battlefields of 1879, should no longer have great things to do with photos taken at the end of the twentieth century and the XXIst century...
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