WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
Colonel R.T. Glyn, 1/24th Regt. kwaSokhexe, Ulundi
[Mac and Shad](Isandula Collection)
Secrets Of The Dead The Mystery Of Zulu Dawn
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
Drummer Boy 14
 
Frank Allewell
 
90th
 
rusteze
 
ADMIN
 
Julian Whybra
 
SRB1965
 
ymob
 
1879graves
 
xhosa2000
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1 ... 9 ... 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
AuthorMessage
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:12 pm

As last time, the debate has shifted from whether or not Jenkins was a defender (which is proved beyond doubt) to the process, which is unimportant. There is no official roll, there is no regimental committee and no one in the descendent regiment knows as much about the research as those who have contributed here. As far as I know, Snook is the only one to have dreamed up such a thing but he seems to have made no obvious effort to bring it about. Probably because, in reality, there is no precedent for spending public money on such a thing. It ain't going to happen, and neither should it. I think Kenny had it about right - nothing to do with official committees.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1260
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:22 pm

If Mr Rees had all the information required from the museum staff, why did he find it necessary? To contact Dr Adrian Greaves. Did he have doubts on their findings.?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:31 pm

If anyone tells you they know what was in the mind of someone else they are lying. Nobody can answer that question except Mr Rees surely?

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1260
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:43 pm

Bill wrote:
RDVC

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:14 pm   Reply with quote
 

Hi Alan

Yes, the debate has raged on another website and on occasion got quite heated (and abusive) !

As far as the Regimental Museum is concerned we are, from the evidence available, of the opinion that he WAS there. Martin Everett did a lot of research over five years ago and that has been confirmed and added to by some recent research by Julian Whybra. Our website includes a list of defenders and we have included him on that.

However, there are those who continue to believe he was not there.

Bill

There you have it. Martin done the research, and Julian confirmed it and Bill added him to the list. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:59 pm

Norman Holme 1971.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

avatar

Posts : 1260
Join date : 2010-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:01 pm

Here's the museum roll call

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:29 pm

Chard79
To answer your question, as I understand it from Mr Rees, Jenkins's descendant, the contact was not made at his instigation but made the other way round.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:38 pm

I see IK is now saying that we cannot be 100% sure about Jenkins presence because Bourne did not include him on his 1910 roll. If anyone takes me to task for "what ifs" in the future I shall merely point them towards Mr K!

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:41 pm

Good point though, as the Museum roll is largely based on Chards and Bourne's rolls.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:47 pm

And Bourne of course was in the 2nd battalion and if he remembered Jenkins at all would only have met him when he arrived at RD on the 19th or 20th prior to the defence as one of six men passing through.

But why would IK prefer a Bourne 1910 roll and a 'Chard' 1929 roll to the two contemporary Smith & Waters Rolls from 1879???
It's illogical.

The museum of course did not know of the latter and had no option but to base its roll on 'Chard', Bourne Amended, and Holme's Noble 24th at the time.  It is a sign of its forward thinking not to have closed the matter to subsequent research.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:52 pm

Why would you prefer the Bourne and Chard roll, most of your research was largely from them.?

"The original roll of honour cannot be revised. But the museum is to ensure Jenkins’ name is added to any future lists of those who fought."

Curators at the National Army Museum.

Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:55 pm

[quote="Chard1879"]
Bill wrote:
RDVC

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:14 pm   Reply with quote
 

Hi Alan

Yes, the debate has raged on another website and on occasion got quite heated (and abusive) !

As far as the Regimental Museum is concerned we are, from the evidence available, of the opinion that he WAS there. Martin Everett did a lot of research over five years ago and that has been confirmed and added to by some recent research by Julian Whybra. Our website includes a list of defenders and we have included him on that.

However, there are those who continue to believe he was not there.

Bill


Bill says it all really. Best left at that really!!!



Last edited by Chelmsfordthescapegoat on Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:59 pm

To be fair, IK says that the probable reason he is left off the 1910 roll is because (as Julian says) Bourne would not have known Jenkins.  But he thinks the chance remains that there was some other reason. He admits we shall probably never know what that reason was, and that is what I have trouble with. The real task is to identify the evidence, evaluate it and reach a view (which has surely been done).

Steve
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:02 pm

CTSG #1    3.52 post
If your post was directed at me then the answer is yes, until I found the Smith & Waters Rolls, I did.  That was all there was to go on (note: Bourne Amended not Bourne).  But research moves on.  And now I use the Smith, Waters and Fine Arts Rolls - all contemporary.

CTSG #2    3.55 post
Not quite right.  Bill's post dates from 2014.  Yes, "Martin did a lot of research over five years ago" back from 2014 and "it has been confirmed by recent research by Julian" from 2013.

rusteze
I couldn't agree more. Although my essay was published in 2013, since then, I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family.
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:03 pm

rusteze wrote:
To be fair, IK says that the probable reason he is left off the 1910 roll is because (as Julian says) Bourne would not have known Jenkins.  But he thinks the chance remains that there was some other reason. He admits we shall probably never know what that reason was, and that is what I have trouble with. The real task is to identify the evidence, evaluate it and reach a view (which has surely been done).

Steve

Buy Julian's book. Martin done the research Julian confirm his findings Jenkins was added to list. Which part of Julian's work are your doubting. ?
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:09 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG #1    3.52 post
If your post was directed at me then the answer is yes, until I found the Smith & Waters Rolls, I did.  That was all there was to go on (note: Bourne Amended not Bourne).  But research moves on.  And now I use the Smith, Waters and Fine Arts Rolls - all contemporary.

CTSG #2    3.55 post
Not quite right.  Bill's post dates from 2014.  Yes, "Martin did a lot of research over five years ago" back from 2014 and "it has been confirmed by recent research by Julian" from 2013.

rusteze
I couldn't agree more.  Although my essay was published in 2013, since then, I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family.

If that's the case shouldn't the Museum up-date the heading on it's roll call. As is appears to have been amended to add Jenkins.!

JW wrote:
I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family

Sweeping statements like this just annoy people. why can't you tell us what the confirmatory articles are? it may help people to make up their minds.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:11 pm

Hi CTSG good to see you back in the debate. No, I don't doubt JW's work and I have his essay. My doubt is with IK who seems on the one hand to believe Jenkins was probably there but continues to harbour a doubt because Bourne left him off the 1910 roll (even though he thinks that is probably because Bourne did not know Jenkins). Academic rigour is one thing, but sitting on the fence for eternity is a tad uncomfortable.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:11 pm

Julian we should have you down as a Contemporary Historian.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:29 pm

CTSG
I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I AM a contemporary historian as is Ian Knight and any living historian (since we all exist in the here and now).

Re information found since my essay, I made no "sweeping statement".  I merely mentioned that I'd found extra pieces of information - I doubt they would influence anyone who is still undecided.  There's another DJ letter dating from June relating news since RD and lamenting the death of a friend kia and there are four additional contemporary newspaper articles in which he is mentioned as an RD survivor.  There was no need to post them on the forum - there is such a thing as overkill.  I have included them in the latest edition of Studies in the Zulu War Vol II as extra footnotes.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:31 pm

rusteze wrote:
Hi CTSG good to see you back in the debate. No, I don't doubt JW's work and I have his essay. My doubt is with IK who seems on the one hand to believe Jenkins was probably there but continues to harbour a doubt because Bourne left him off the 1910 roll (even though he thinks that is probably because Bourne did not know Jenkins). Academic rigour is one thing, but sitting on the fence for eternity is a tad uncomfortable.

Steve

Thanks Steve, it was a hard fight but getting there. Just glad my hands have stopped shaking just a sight twitch now then, but enough to chuck a cup of tea without warning across the room.


I have always thought, a lot of the well-known Authors / Historians have steered clear of making their judgements known, possibly because they can't find anything to prove Julian's work incorrect. I wish some of them would make their views known or show something that could possibly show Jenkins could not have been there. But alas they either have nothing or are too sensible to get involved in a debate with Julian. Reputations perhaps ?
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:34 pm

CTSG
As far as I am aware, no-one has any cause to find my work incorrect.
But I thank you for your concern.
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:37 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG
I'm not sure what you mean by that.  I AM a contemporary historian as is Ian Knight and any living historian (since we all exist in the here and now).

Re information found since my essay, I made no "sweeping statement".  I merely mentioned that I'd found extra pieces of information - I doubt they would influence anyone who is still undecided.  There's another DJ letter dating from June relating news since RD and lamenting the death of a friend kia and there are four additional contemporary newspaper articles in which he is mentioned as an RD survivor.  There was no need to post them on the forum - there is such a thing as overkill.  I have included them in the latest edition of Studies in the Zulu War Vol II as extra footnotes.

Julian have you ever conversed with Ian Knight or any of the other well know Historians regarding Jenkins.
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

avatar

Posts : 2549
Join date : 2009-04-24

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:05 pm

My main concern with Jenkins and always has been his silence about being at Rorke’s Drift. In his letter to his father for whatever reason he tries to get them to believe he survived at the Battle of Isandlwana. The fact the defence of Rorke’s Drift would be as just a famous as Isandlwana if not more considering they were the saviours of Natal makes no sense.
Why did he not say in his letter that he was at the Mission Station Rorke’s Drift? I cannot think of any reason why he would not claim recognition. As far as I’m aware he only mentions he was at Rorke’s Drift when he was back in England away from most of the other defenders. Something isn’t quite right.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:15 pm

CTSG 1st post
Yes I have.  But what is said in confidence remains in confidence.  All I will say is that those that had read my essay agreed with me.

CTSG 2nd post
Jenkins's THIRD letter written after RD makes it very clear. In it he did not claim to have been at Isandhlwana. He was part of a prisoner escort moving from Helpmekaar to Isandhlwana that was held up at RD. Once this has been understood the misinterpretation of his SECOND letter about Isandhlwana becomes clear. He was never silent about RD and was always regarded as a defender.
My book is available from the Museum. Read it yourself.
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:28 pm

Was he escorting Prisoners to Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:00 am

Dave
No. The escort had escorted prisoners into Natal and was on its way back to rejoin the regiment. If you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject and its members in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed now and will be available shortly.
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1948
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:37 am

Bonjour Mr Whybra,
Good new!
Available (I.E: Vol. III) only at the shop of the Brecon Museum?
Can you tell us what is the subject of the others essays?
Regards
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:11 am

Hi Frederic
Thanks for your interest. I don't want to jump the gun (intervenir prématurément) because it was delivered to the printers on Tuesday only. The process can easily take a month. But it will be on sale at Brecon. As soon as it is available I'll post on the forum re content and availability.
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1948
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:32 am

Thank you very much for your answer.

I.E: One month to wait (at least) before to know the topics???, You are harsh!


Regards

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:30 am

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (par la cruauté on arrive à la bonté).
Note how I'm trying to teach you some English expressions for use on the forum!
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1948
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:09 pm

M Whybra,
This can be useful...
I searched in vain the English equivalent of these (cults) dialogues.

« Les tontons flingueurs » (dialogues by Michel Audiard) :
« Les cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnaît »

« Le pacha » (dialogues by Michel Audiard) :
« Le jour où on mettra les cons sur orbite, tu n'auras pas fini de tourner »

Regards
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:42 pm

Ho! ho!  Careful, we're off topic (sort of) and you will be getting your knuckles rapped for writing in French.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1948
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:56 pm

I am not sure to be off-topic...
But, if it's the case, I apologize to everyone.
Regards
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:13 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Dave
No.  The escort had escorted prisoners into Natal and was on its way back to rejoin the regiment.  If you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject and its members in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed now and will be available shortly.

Why who he have been heading to Rorkes Drift / Isandlwana ?
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:02 am

Dave
"Why who he have been heading"? Your words are confused; I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.  
As I wrote, if you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject available shortly.  Support the museum.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Saul David 1879



Posts : 526
Join date : 2009-02-28

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:16 am

Good grief old chap, calm down. Let him get it over it. You've made your point in your book.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:19 am

Just trying to find out what Dave in his excitement wanted to know!
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:28 pm

Jenkins regiment was at Helpmaaker. So am i right in thinking that he would have gone from Natal to Helpmaaker. Or am I going in the wrong direction. If i am then i apologise.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD   Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:41 pm

Dave
Helpmekaar is in Natal ! , its the last staging post before Rorke's Drift , remember many of the survivors escaped to Helpmekaar ? . Not sure of the distance as the crow flies from RD probably 6 or so miles , probably 8-10 on foot ? , Frank will know .
90th
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:52 pm

Dave
Now I understand.  So, from west to east, Helpmekaar, Rorke's Drift, Isandhlwana.
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Is this the correct distances Jenkins travelled from Natal to Helpmekaar ?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:49 pm

Dave

No, you have the wrong Helpmekaar. Helpmekaar College is in Johannesburg. I can't see anybody marching that far!

Here is the one in question. Distances are pretty much as described by Gary.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Steve
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:12 pm

Thanks Steve Thanks what I thought a bit to far. Right so he was on his way back to Helpmekaar with the Escort? from Isandlwana or Rorke's Drift or from that direction.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:25 pm

It's not altogether clear which direction they were going. Either taking Zulu prisoners to Helpmekaar after the Sihayo's Kraal action , or perhaps afterwards returning from Heplmekaar with some sick soldiers to the RD Hospital on the way back to Isandhlwana. JW's essay sets it all out nicely.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Mr Greaves

avatar

Posts : 746
Join date : 2009-10-18

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:35 pm

Not sure how Julian essay sets it out nicely?
Your last post seems to be a bit confused as to where he was going and what he was doing? I'm not sure Julian would have left a lot of un-answered question like that?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2218
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:45 pm

Trying to help, not score points.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:18 pm

Dear All and especially Dave
If you read my post of yesterday at 8 am you will see that:
1. the escort was travelling eastwards, from Helpmekaar via RD in the direction of Isandhlwana.
2. the essay WILL be in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed as I write and WILL be available very shortly via the museum.
3. the essay will be fully-annotated giving all primary sources and containing newly-found, previously-unseen, and previously-unpublished material showing the progress of the prisoner escort from its inception to the 23rd January.

Mr. Greaves
You're quite right.  I don't like unanswered questions left hanging in the air.
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:33 pm

Dave wrote:
Was he escorting Prisoners to Isandlwana.

Isn't that what I was asking yesterday ?

So where did Jenkins escort the prisoners to in Natal. And why would he be going in the drection of Isandlwana to join his regiment when it was at Helpmaarka. Or am I totally confused if so could someone explain in layman's terms.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1824
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:26 pm

Dave

Isn't that what I was asking yesterday ?
YES IT WAS.

So where did Jenkins escort the prisoners to in Natal.
HELPMEKAAR.

And why would he be going in the drection of Isandlwana to join his regiment when it was at Helpmaarka.
HIS REGIMENT WAS AT ISANDHLWANA. HE WAS RETURNING TO IT.

Or am I totally confused
IT WOULD APPEAR SO.
Back to top Go down
Dave

avatar

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:30 pm

right deleted the first question.

So they left Helpmaker, get to Isandlwana collect the prisoners in-question, head back to Helpmaker and stop off a Rorkes Drift, with their prisoners. Because one the escort party feels ill.
So the rest remain with him.
The camp is taken at Isandlwana and they get caught up in the defence.

What happen to the Prisoners.

There's no mention that I'm aware off prisoner escort arriving at Isandlwana all leaving.

There nothing about Prisoners being escorted into RD.

If they had been Zulu's and were the ones hanged, again this would have been mentioned in the context off "The prisoners brought in by the Prision escort were hanged" but we don't know for sure if they were Zulu , British , Coloninal.

In Kris's book she says " the exact date when the journey to Helpmaker via Rorkes Drift was made is unknown" Can't quite get my head around that one.


Last edited by Dave on Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   

Back to top Go down
 
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 16 of 18Go to page : Previous  1 ... 9 ... 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: