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 Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana

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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:55 pm

Hello all,

Some time ago I came across the following article from the West Watford History Group website, which mentions the fact that at one time there was a memorial plaque in the town's Workhouse Chapel which commemorated Daniel Gordon & James Gurney - two of the 24th's Boys who were KIA at Isandlwana.



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As the article states, the building was demolished in the 1960s & despite exhaustive enquiries by myself & others there are no clues as to what happened to the plaque itself.



I'm sure most of you will agree that it is a shame that this particular memorial has disappeared, not least because it commemorated two of the young casualties whose deaths have generated much controversy & debate on this forum & others.



I have therefore decided to look into the possibility of providing some kind of replacement, as this is after all a missing war memorial.



Initially, I intended that any new plaque should be erected somewhere in Watford in order to preserve the local connection, however, after several enquiries with the local authority it appears that a suitable location is fairly difficult to find (I was offered the interior of the local cemetery chapel, but this is very rarely opened & so any new memorial would never be seen).



After contacting Bill Cainan at Brecon, he has very kindly offered to have the plaque erected in the Royal Welsh Museum's memorial garden outside the entrance - as there are a number of other regimental memorials here this seems like an appropriate place.



In the meantime, it has been suggested to me that it might be a nice opportunity to remember all five Boys who died on the 22nd January 1879 rather than just Gordon & Gurney - having given this some thought, I fully agree and so this is now the plan!



Having read through the various related discussions both on this website & others (& cross-referencing the various casualty/medal rolls & regimental memorials) as far as I'm aware these are the names that should go on the new memorial;



DANIEL GORDON 2/24th

JAMES GURNEY 2/24th

THOMAS J HARRINGTON 1/24th

JOSEPH S McEWAN 2/24th

ROBERT RICHARDS 1/24th



In the hope for historical accuracy, I would ask any forum members with expertise in researching this particular subject to let me know if they have any serious dispute with any of the names above (i.e. James Gurney is listed as a Private in more than one point of reference).



Regards,



Tim
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:36 pm

Hi Tim
Welcome to the mine field.
From my records I have:
Gordon age 16
McEwan 15
Harrington only attested 3 months prior to iSandlwana so his age is unknown but its highly probable he was around 14
Richards isn't on the medal roll but is listed in the Pay List as KIA iSandlwana.
The last is the difficult one. Gurney
Norman Holmes has him listed as a private. Because I believe he enlisted in December 1877, Age 15. So just over two years later he could have been older than 17 and listed as an adult. Thats the one that needs a touch more work on.

Hope that helps

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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:02 pm

Just to remind the Forum of the youth of those Boys who fell at iSandlwana.

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Unknown Boy, 24th Regiment's Band - Battalion unknown possibly 2nd Battn.
John Young Collection

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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:25 pm

Thanks Springbok/John,

Although James Gurney does appear in Tavender's Casualty Roll as a Private (as well in a couple of other pieces of work including Julian Whybra's 'England's Sons'), he is listed on the Regimental Memorial in Brecon Cathedral as 'Boy', and the indicated wording on the original Watford Workhouse chapel plaque seems to point to the assumption that he was certainly younger than 18. Ian Knight also refers to him as a Boy in 'Zulu Rising' (p547).

My inclination is that Gurney was indeed officially the rank of Boy, but again, any further researched views are more than welcome.

Regards,

Tim
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:43 pm

Tim,

I can see you have also posted this on the VWF, here's something I have already written on there on a thread entitled 'Drummer Boy Fiction':

What no one has mentioned are the Boy-soldiers of the 24th who were killed. Their rank was that of 'Boy' 1st/24th: Boy Thomas J. Harrington, who attested on 15th October 1878 & Boy Robert Richards. It is possible that these two Boys may well been 'Sons of the Regiment.' Given the date that Harrington attested it is, in my opinion, feasible that he could have been as young as 13yrs of age.

From the 2nd/24th: Boy Daniel Gordon, who was 17yrs of age when killed at Isandlwana & Boy Joseph S. McEwan who was 16yrs of age when he died.

Both Norman Holmes & Julian Whybra do mention 'Boys' in their various works.

The memorial at Brecon records the names I mentioned above, but lists an additional Boy - James Gurney in the 2nd/24th, a number of authors, myself included, have given him the rank of Private, however, it is clear for the fact that he was only 16yrs of age on 22nd January 1879, he too should be correctly shown as Boy James Gurney as the memorial records.

So there are five boys you can add to the debate, ranging from 13yrs to 17yrs.


John Y.
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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:08 pm

Hello John,

Many thanks, yes I read the entire thread the other day whilst looking into establishing the names of the 24th's Boys.

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:16 pm

There is a James Gurney - Watford - then age 6 on 1871 census.

My understanding is that adult pay started at 18 years;  boy service was 14-18 years; of course you did not have to produce a birth certificate on enlistment so there was a temptation to enlist underage either at age 13 or 17.  [You could enlist in the Militia at age 17. Many did this and joined regular army at 18]

Daniel Gordon (25B/1491) and James Gurney (25B/1494) have almost identical numbers so could have enlisted on the same day. Pte Thomas Martin (25B/1496) 2/24th enlisted on 19 Dec 1877 as a guide.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:13 pm

Does anyone know the age of the civilian " Boy Green" who was with Peter Shepard
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:38 pm

Ray63,

We don't even know of his first name, let alone his age.

I've tried a number of leads on this in the past all of which proved fruitless.

Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd's youthful servant remains a mystery. A few years back I used to work with distant relative of Shepherd - also called Peter Shepherd.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:49 pm

This may hold some clues! As anyone got this book?

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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:33 pm

Hello Littlehand,

I was actually in contact with the author some time ago, & unfortunately he doesn't know anything that can help.

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:39 pm

did you have to, lol,another one on the list..
cheapest one on abe £19
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:51 pm

"The Workhouse was located at 60, Watford Road and was built in 1838. In 1930 it became known as "Shrodells". The old Union Workhouse Chapel became St Barnabas' Chapel in Shrodells Hospital (Watford). There aren't many records available at Herts Record Office, except Minutes and Committee Minutes, although there are assessment from 1862 (you would need to check if these hold individual information) Watford Library hold accounts from 1876 which include some names of paupers."
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:53 pm

John

Just a small correction - Watford Road - should be Vicarage Road. I had my appendix removed in Shrodells hospital in 1951 - didn't have an opportunity of seeing the plaque.
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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regt    Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:45 am

Hi Martin.
At a quick glance this may be better !  Merry Christmas 

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Ho Ho Ho !
90th  Salute 
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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regt Boys KIA Isandlwana    Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:48 am

Hi Tim .
Sounds like a good idea to me as well , great for those Lads to be recognized  Salute 
Cheers 90th  Merry Christmas 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:26 pm

Hi Tim.

Great idea to have these 'boys' recognised, and in the hope of historical accuracy, it would be nice to have their regiment fully recognised by including its full title, ie; The 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot, rather than just 24th regiment or 24th foot, after all, the regiment held this title for the best part of 100 years, longer than any other title in its entire history.
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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regt Boys KIA Isandlwana    Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:58 pm

I was hoping to have the 24th's 'Glengarry' badge incorporated into the memorial (which as you will know contains the '2nd Warwickshire' designation), however, none of the images I've been able to find online are of clear enough quality for the memorial company to use - if anyone has a 'high-def' image of either this particular badge or the shako plate, do please let me know!

Regards,

Tim
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:13 pm

Tim.

If my avatar is of any use then please use that, if not, I have an actual glengarry badge that you would be most welcome to use. I will have a look through my files, if I find any badges that you might be able to use, I will email them to Pete.

All the best mate.

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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regt Boys KIA Isandlwana    Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:51 pm

Martin,

Many thanks, unfortunately the company require an extremely clear & detailed line-drawing type image to be able to use it - and they wouldn't be able to use an actual metal badge either.

Regards,

Tim
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:59 pm

Hi Tim.

I have just emailed Pete some pictures to forward to you, however, now that I have read this, I doubt they will be of any use, but anyway, if they could use any of them that would be great.

Hope you do manage to get a decent image of the Glengarry badge, it would serve the purpose well.

Good luck with the project Tim.

Best wishes.

Martin.

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:55 am

Here is the Shako badge in use up to 1880.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Memorial to the 24th Regt Boys   Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:43 am

Hi Steve .
It seems there are different Shako plates to the 24th , I have a pic of one picked up at Isandlwana Battlefield in Laband & Mathews ' Isandlwana ' that doesnt have the ' Egypt motto or Sphinx ' .

Cheers 90th  Merry Christmas 
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:26 am

Just clear up the query on centre of Shako plates - Sphinx = officers; 24 = other ranks. There are 24th Foot home service (blue) helmet plates introduced in 1878 (again two versions) but were never used in South Africa.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:11 am

There must be other memorials to the 24th who died at Isandlwana, with the 24th's 'Glengarry' badge.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:13 am

John Young wrote:
Ray63,

We don't even know of his first name, let alone his age.

I've tried a number of leads on this in the past all of which proved fruitless.

Surgeon-Major Peter Shepherd's youthful servant remains a mystery.  A few years back I used to work with distant relative of Shepherd - also called Peter Shepherd.

John Y.


It's "Boy"
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:21 pm

this is not high def, but are you looking
looking for something along the lines of
this.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:21 pm

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Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:04 pm

Yes, that kind of thing - as was mentioned earlier without the Sphinx though. I also have what I thought was a pretty clear line drawing of the Glengarry badge but unfortunately that wasn't clear enough either!

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:19 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:25 pm

24th.  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:51 pm

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:20 pm

Hi Tim.

Yes, I got your PM and email, many thanks.

It's just a pity that none of the badges can be used, and yet there have been a number of new (or replacement) headstones done with a very clear image of the Glengarry badge.

I think that a Glengarry badge would be a good choice as it also includes the name of the regiment, whereas many of the helmet plates don't, although the ones I sent to you do have the name of the regiment on them. I also think it is very important in the interest of historical accuracy, that the full name of the regiment, ie; 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment should be included on any memorial, and not just '24th', '24th reg' or 24th foot' as this implies the regiment pre 1782, and certainly no reference whatsoever to 'swb', as this would be totally inaccurate because that name did not exist until 1881, two years after the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879.

Anyway Tim, I hope that you find a good drawing or picture that can be used for the memorial.

Best of luck.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi Les.

That is a good image (crown a little to low, should be on top of garter belt), but I hope that Tim can make use of that.

Nice one Les, well done mate.

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:17 pm

Thanks Martin  Salute there is another one
of the top of my head..In Gon's the road to
Isandhlwana!.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:44 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:39 pm

Les. It's the IMG code you want, when adding a photo.

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:51 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:55 pm

ctsg, thank you very kind  Salute as you can see from above
i tried..i failed. ( shut it Pete  Wink  ) thats me all badged out for
now..
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:58 pm

Les,

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In the words of Tommy Cooper, "Just like that."

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:10 pm

Many thanks for these images, unfortunately these are the ones I've already broached the memorial company with and none are apparently clear enough to be entered into their computer & transferred onto the memorial itself...

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:26 pm

No worries mate, but all you really need
is a competent artist, who could draw
the image to your specification.
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:48 pm

Tim Needham wrote:
I was hoping to have the 24th's 'Glengarry' badge incorporated into the memorial (which as you will know contains the '2nd Warwickshire' designation), however, none of the images I've been able to find online are of clear enough quality for the memorial company to use - if anyone has a 'high-def' image of either this particular badge or the shako plate, do please let me know!

Regards,

Tim

Tim could you not mount / inlay a replica Glengarry badge?
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:01 pm

Hi Littlehand,

This is something I'm considering, however, a repro glengarry badge may be a little small for the proposed memorial (roughly A3 sized)& so a shako plate may look a little better as it's a bit bigger.

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:32 pm

What about something like this ?

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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:39 pm

Hello all,

Just to let you know that the new memorial has recently been presented to the Royal Welsh museum in Brecon & has been erected in the Zulu War room.

I would like to thank the current owners of Daniel Gordon's South Africa medal for their generous help in raising the money needed to produce the plaque, and also to Bill Cainan at Brecon for finding a suitable location and arranging for it to be erected.

I will ask Admin to post a photo shortly.

Regards,

Tim
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:41 am

Great job! very tasteful..
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:06 am

Pity space couldn't have been 'found' for Boy Green. And yes I know he wasn't 24th (or welsh )

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:22 am

springbok9 wrote:
Pity space couldn't have been 'found' for Boy Green. And yes I know he wasn't 24th (or welsh )

Cheers



Neither was the 24th  No
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PostSubject: Re: Memorial to the 24th Regiment Boys KIA Isandlwana   Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:40 am

Really? Well bugger me!  Wink 
Wouldn't be a good week without the old martin wind up now would it. Cheers mate and have a great weekend.
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