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 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans

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kopie



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PostSubject: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:25 pm

Julian Whybra writes that "he may have been a defender of Rorke's Drift" and his name appears on Dunbar's Roll. (Studies in the Zulu War 1879: II, page 22).
While Pte David Jenkins has rightly, but belatedly been thoroughly researched in depth, proven to be a RD defender and subsequently included in the museum's list of defenders, what chance Fred?
Is there any way of finding out one way or the other, if 953 Evans was out with Chelmsford's column on the 21/22nd January 1879, or at the drift? Perhaps another name will be added to the list of defenders in 2014?
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:58 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:49 am

Kopie. Anyone can be added to the museum list. That list is maintained
by historians. Not in any official capacity. Its a hobby list!
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:23 pm

I am not sure "anyone" is quite accurate impi! Whilst I would be really most proud to count my own gt grandfather amongst the defenders of RD, alas, I can not, as there is no evidence that he was there and no ancestral connection to be found between me and any of the men on the various lists of defenders.
Now impi, be fair. Have you read Julian Whybra's essay on David Jenkins and examined the evidence that is presented therein? It really leaves the reader in little doubt that David Jenkins was there. If you have any interest in the debate at all, it is required reading. It really really is THE MOST up to date analysis of the David Jenkins topic.
I would like to think that if Fred Evans WAS a RD defender and his contribution has not been recognised as such, that JW, or someone equally as capable/reputable, could do as thorough of a research job on him.
And if you were to read JW's essay, you would see that reading between the lines, you and other doubters like you, despite what Julian might say, spurred JW to some extent into this research, so you should take some credit for that and feel proud of it, that you played your part in proving David Jenkins to have been a RD defender. I think you owe it to yourself and most of all to the memory of David Jenkins himself, to read the work.
The whole whoo-har over the rededication ceremony and his new headstone is a shame, because David Jenkins thoroughly deserves to have that written on his headstone.
RIP Jenkins - a very brave and modest man.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:04 pm

Deleted Unnecessary Comment!
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:22 pm

"Documentation from the time" is inaccurate and error strewn, for example, one man is listed on the Chard and Bourne rolls, that we now know to have been killed at Isandhlwana!
Clearly, he could not have been killed at Isandhlwana and then, subsequently, fight at RD!
The list of RD defenders at the Brecon Museum is the most accurate and up to date of all, with deletions and later inclusions as appropriate.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:51 pm

Funny that as Julian Whybra and Norman Holme based their research on the Chard and Bourne Rolls. Yet there is no real evidence to show that Chard complied the roll himself. And Bourne's roll call was complied some 25 years after the event. 
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:40 pm

I guess the Chard and Bourne rolls were, previously, the best that historians had, and as such, a fair basis on which to start.
The Chard roll however, as you know, was compiled around 1930, but in his work that I refer to above, Julian has discovered another roll, the "Smith roll" as he calls it, which was published in 1879!
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:09 pm

Kopie, read John Chard report submitted two days after the battle.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:33 pm

Written by Cantwell?
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:49 pm

Not the Roll, the report! He submitted two days after!
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:54 pm

impi, sorry!  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:54 pm

The report in-question!

"



Rorke's Drift

  
25th January, 1879.

SIR, 
    I HAVE the honour to report that on the 22nd instant I was left in command at Rorke's Drift by Major Spalding, who went to Helpmakaar to hurry in the company 24th regiment ordered to protect the ponts.
   About 3.15 p.m. on that day, I was at the ponts when two men came riding from Zululand at a gallop, and shouted to be taken across the river.
    I was informed by one of them, Lieutenant Adenhdorff of Lonsdale's regiment (who remained to assist in the defence) of the disaster at Isandlwana camp, and that  the Zulus were advancing on Rorke's Drift. The other, a carabineer, rode off to take the news to Helpmakaar.
   Almost immediately I received a message from Lieutenant Bromhead, commanding the company 24th Regiment at the camp near the commissariat stores, asking me to come up at once.
    I gave the order to inspan, strike tents, put all stores, &c., into the wagon, and at once rode up to the commissariat store and found that a note had been received from the 3rd column to state that the enemy were advancing in force against our post, which we were to strengthen and hold at all costs.
   Lieutenant Bromhead was most actively engaged in loopholing and barricading the store building and hospital, and connecting the defence of the two buildings by walls of mealie bags and two wagons that were on the ground. I held a hurried consultation with him and with  Mr. Dalton, of the Commissariat (who was actively superintending the work of defence, and whom I cannot sufficiently thank for his most valuable services) entirely approving of the arrangements made. I went round the position, and then went down to the ponts and brought up the guard of 1 sergeant and 6 men, wagon, &c. I desire here
to mention the offer of the punt-man Daniels and Sergeant Milne, 3rd Buffs, to move the punts in the middle of the stream, and defend them from their decks with a few men. We arrived at the post about 3.30 p.m. Shortly after an officer of Durnford's Horse arrived and asked for orders. I requested him to send a detachment to observe the drifts and punts and throw out outposts in the direction of the enemy and check his advance as much as possible, falling back upon the post when forced to retire and assist in its defence.
    I requested Lieutenant Bromhead to post his men; and having seen his and every man at his post, the work once more went on.
   About 4.20 p.m. the sound of firing was heardbehind the hill to our south. The officer of Durnford's returned, reporting the enemy close upon us, and that his men would not obey his orders, but were going off to Helpmakaar, and I saw them, apparently about 100 in number, going off in that direction. 
   About the same time Captain Stephenson's detachment of Natal Native Contingent left us, as did that officer himself.
    I saw that our line of defence was too extended for the small number of men now left us, and at once commenced a retrenchment of biscuit boxes.
   We had not completed a wall 2 boxes high when, about 4.30 p.m., 500 or 600 of the enemy came in sight around the hill to our south, and advanced at a run against the south wall. They were met by a well-sustained fire but, notwithstanding their heavy loss, continued the advance to within 50 yards of the wall, when they were met with such a heavy fire from the wall and cross fire from the store that they were checked, but taking advantage of the cover afforded by
the cookhouse, ovens, &c., kept up a heavy fire. The greater number, however, without stopping, moved to the left, around the hospital, and made a rush at our N.W. wall of mealie bags, but after a short but desperate struggle were driven back with heavy loss into the bush around the work.
    The main body of the enemy were close behind, and had lined the ledge of rock and caves overlooking us about 400 yards to our south, from where they kept up a constant fire, and advancing somewhat more to their left than the first attack, occupied the garden, hollow road and bush in great force.
    Taking advantage of the bush, which we had not time to cut down, the enemy were able to advance under cover close to our wall, and in this part soon held one side of the wall, while we held the other. A series of desperate assaults were made, extending from the hospital, along the wall, as far as the bush reached; but each was most splendidly met and repulsed by our men with the bayonet, Corporal Schiess, N.N.C., greatly distinguishing himself by his conspicuous
gallantry.
   The fire from the rocks behind us, though badly directed, took us completely in reverse, and was so heavy that we suffered very severely, and about 6 p.m. were forced to retire behind the retrenchment of biscuit boxes. 
   All this time the enemy had been attempting to force the hospital, and shortly after set fire to its roof.
    The garrison of the hospital defended it room by room, bringing out all the sick who could be moved before they retired. Privates Williams, Hook, R. Jones and W. Jones, 24th Regiment, being the last men to leave, holding the doorway with the bayonet, their own ammunition being expended. From the want of interior communication and the burning of the house it was impossible to save all. With most heartfelt sorrow
   I regret we could not save these poor fellows from their terrible fate.
  Seeing the hospital burning and the desperate  attempts of the enemy to fire the roof of the stores, we converted two mealie bag heaps in to a sort of redoubt, which gave a second line of fire all round; Assistant Commissary Dunne working hard at this, though much exposed, and rendering valuable assistance.
  As darkness came on we were completely surrounded, and after several attempts had been gallantly repulsed, were eventually forced to retire to the middle, and then inner wall of the Kraal on our East. The position we then had we retained throughout.
  A desultory fire was kept up all night, and several assaults were attempted and repulsed; the vigour of the attack continuing until after midnight, and men firing with the greatest coolness did not waste a single shot; the light afforded by the burning hospital being of great help to us.
  About 4 a.m. 23rd instant, the firing ceased, and at daybreak the enemy were out of sight over the hill to the south-west.
  We patrolled the grounds, collecting the arms of the dead Zulus, and strengthened our defences as much as possible.
  We were removing the thatch from the roof of the stores, when about 7 a.m. a large body of the enemy appeared on the hills to the south-west.
   I sent a friendly Kafir, who had come in shortly before, with a note to the Officer Commanding at Helpmakaar asking for help.
  About 8 a.m. the third column appeared in sight, the enemy who had been gradually advancing, falling back as they approached.
   I consider the enemy who attacked us to have numbered about 3,000 (three thousand).
  We killed about 350 (three hundred and fifty).
  Of the steadiness and gallant behaviour of the whole garrison I cannot speak too highly.
   I wish especially to bring to your notice the conduct of:—
Lieutenant Bromhead, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, and the splendid behaviour of his Company B, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Surgeon Reynolds, A. M. D., in his constant attention to the wounded, under fire where they fell. 
Acting Commissariat Officer Dalton, to whose energy much of our defences were due, and who was severely wounded while gallantly assisting in the defence.
Assistant Commissary Dunne.
Acting Store Keeper Byrne (killed)
Colour-Sergeant Bourne, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Sergeant Williams, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment (wounded dangerously).
Sergeant Windridge, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Corporal Schiess, 2nd Battalion 3rd Natal Native Contingent (wounded).
1395 Private Williams, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
593 Private Jones, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Private McMahon, Army Hospital Corps.
716 Private R. Jones, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Private H. Hook.
Private Roy, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment.
The following return shows the number present at Rorke's Drift, January 22nd, 1879 :—
Staff, 1 Non-Commissioned Officer and Men, total 1.
Royal Artillery, 1 Non-Commissioned Officer and Men, 3 sick Non-Commissioned and Men, total 4.
Royal Engineers, 1 Officer, 1 Non-Commissioned Officer and Men, total 2.
3rd Buffs, 1 Non-Commissioned, Officer and Men, total 1.
1st Battalion 24th Regiment, 6 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, 5 sick Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 11.
2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, B Company, 17 casuals sick, 1 Officer, 81 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, 17 sick Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 99.
90th Light Infantry,? Non-Commissioned Officer and man sick.
Commissariat and Transport Department, 3 Officers. 1 Non-Commissioned Officer and men, total 4.
Army Medical Department, 1 Officer, 3 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 4.
Chaplains, 1 Officer, total 1.
Natal Mounted Police, 3 sick Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 3.
Natal Native Contingent, Officer, 6 sick Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 7.
Ferryman, 1 Non-Commissioned Officer and Men, total 1.
Total.—8 officers, 96 Non-Commisioned Officers and Men, 35 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men sick, total 139.
The following is a list of the killed:—
Sergeant Maxfield, 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Private Scanlan.
Private Hayden.
Private Adams.
Private Cole.
Private Fagan.
Private Chick.
1398 Private Williams, 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Private Nicolls, 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Private Horrigan, 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Jenkins, 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
M. Byrne, Commissariat Department.
Trooper Hunter, Natal Mounted Police.
Trooper Anderson, N.N.C.
1 Private (Native) N.N.C.
Total 15.
12 wounded of whom two have since died,
viz.:—
Sergeant Williams, 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment.
Private Beckett, 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.
making a total killed of 17.
Herewith is appended a plan of the buildings, showing our lines of defence. The points of the compass referred to in this report are, as shewn in sketch, approximately magnetic.

  
I have, &c.,
(Signed) JOHN R, M. CHARD,
Lieutenant R. E

To Colonel Glyn, C.B.,
Commanding 3rd Column"
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:47 pm

Thanks for posting the report CTSG.

The only relevant bit I can see, is this:

"1st Battalion 24th Regiment, 6 Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, 5 sick Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, total 11."

The identity of these 11 men is now well known...and 2 of them were named Pte Jenkins.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:02 pm

That is in Chard's second report to Queen Victoria:

Straight from the horse's mouth as it were, and you don't get much more primary source than Lt John Chard, VC.  Full text on:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But my original question is, why does Julian Whybra think Fred Evans "may have been" a RD defender.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:03 am

This topic is about Frederick Evans, see my post above - I am attempting to get it back on this topic:

"But my original question is, why does Julian Whybra think Fred Evans "may have been" a RD defender."
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:23 pm

Kopie,

I was under the impression Frederick Evans' presence at Rorke's Drift had been clarified on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Or have I missed something there?

John Y.
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:00 pm

Frederick Evans' name does not appear on Chard's Roll. Whybra states "he may have been" at RD during the defence.

It is not clear if he was there or not. Perhaps one day, evidence will surface to prove the matter one way or the other.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Kopie,

By the Chard Roll, do you mean the supposed Chard roll where Priv. Evans H Compy. is recorded as number 118 on the list of defenders?

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:37 pm

John Young wrote:
Kopie,

By the Chard Roll, do you mean the supposed Chard roll where Priv. Evans H Compy. is recorded as number 118 on the list of defenders?

John Y.

John, I was looking a this one.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes, you are correct. He is indeed 118 on the list. Just working out how I missed it! Something to do with being out of alphabetical order with some other men at the end of the list.defenders

It would be nice if the Royal Welsh Museum, Julian Whybra, or whoever else holds the most up to date and corrected roll of RD defenders could post it up on this website.
It would be good to see
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:51 pm

kopie wrote:
This topic is about Frederick Evans, see my post above - I am attempting to get it back on this topic:

"But my original question is, why does Julian Whybra think Fred Evans "may have been" a RD defender."

It's back on topic now!
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:29 am

All

25B 953 Pte. Frederick Evans

Norman Holme concluded mistakenly that this H coy 2/24th man was the soldier “of the Mounted Infantry, named Evans” who escaped from Isandhlwana and rode to warn the garrison at the Drift. This was not so since Frederick Evans was never in the M.I. He has confused him with 45 726 Pte. Edward Evans 2/3rd Regt. who was in the M.I., did escape from Isandhlwana, and left an account of his escape in which he states that he rode to warn the Drift. This was referred to in an article in 1990 (and later), and acknowledged by Holme without revising his text.
Frederick Evans was not present at Isandhlwana.
The name “Pte. Evans H coy” did however appear in the ‘Chard’ Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders, in Bourne’s Amended Roll, and “Frederick Evans” appeared in Dunbar’s Roll by dint of which he received a copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. Here Holme has confused Frederick with 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans of H coy 2/24th who was a Defender.
Thus Holme confused Frederick Evans twice, once with Edward Evans from Isandhlwana and the second time with Thomas Evans, a RD defender. Frederick Evans is not included in the rolls of defenders in Holme’s books (and from all other works copying his research) but, on the basis of receiving the Mayor of Durban's address, he just might indeed have been present at Rorke’s Drift. If he were so, it is likely that he was a hospital patient, as were most of those 2/24th men not from B coy who were not otherwise present for other legitimate reasons. For that reason I have listed him as a 'possible defender' in England's Sons until such time as it can be proved one way or another. No new evidence has come to light and he remains a possible.

impi

You are mistaken. My work was not based solely on Chard and Bourne's Rolls.
The roll in England's Sons is not the result of a 'hobby' (though it was a labour of love). I am qualified to do what I do.
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:21 pm

Thanks for clarifying that Julian. I think I have got it now.

As you say, if he was B Coy, 24th and is not on the roll of defenders, then where was he? (Rhetorical question of course, unless one can confirm his location with evidence).

I note that the likes of Maxfield were incapacitated hospital patients; does this technically make them RD "defenders"?
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PostSubject: Re: 25B/ 953 Pte Frederick Evans   Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:30 pm

Hi
Yes it does. Anyone who was there was involved in the defence. Maxfield gave his life for it (consciously or not!).
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