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 The Last Survivors Cave.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:50 am

In response to a request I risked life and limb, expended lots of sweat and sacrificed skin and flesh to intrepidly obtain the photos of the cave. Temperature that day by the way was high 30s.
This is the Route up to the cave, bypassing Younghusbands cairns. ( Cairns plural because there are a few of them, I will cover that in a separate topic)
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The cave is centre shot, unfortunately the camera doesn't show truly how steep the slope is
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The opening is to the right off centre behind the brighter green bush
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The entrance
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The cave entrance and the area that he would have laid down to fire from
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This shows the cave extent.
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And again another deeper section
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The view from the cave.The large cairn to the right of shot is the main Younghusband internment area. This last photo also shows the area across the plain where this last man would have been able to see Chelmsfords column returning
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Hope that helps to put things into context

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: The Last Survivors Cave    Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:04 am

Springy my boy you are a legend ! . Excellent photography , wonderful work that man !  Salute 
90th  agree 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:59 am

Brilliant stuff springy, fantastic effort that man  agree 

Hope you took a tin of plasters for those cuts and grazes  Very Happy 

Take care buddy  Salute 
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:15 pm

Your certainly handy with a camera. Nice clear photo's  agree 

Not really a cave, as such. Struggling to see how the last of the 24th was thrown over a cliffe with a rope around neck, ( I thing that was 90ths version of events) but do agreed this lone individual was one from Younghusband's company. From that position he could have caused some damage to those trying to get at him. The only problem is, didn't Younghusband's company run out of ammunition  scratch . Perhaps this chap slipped at the early stages.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:02 am

Impi
You make a very good point about his ammo. He did keep the Zulu away, "until the shadows got long" that indicates, what, an hour? Allowing for random suppression fire of say a round every 5 minutes that gives him a minimum of twelve rounds.
Im just putting the photos together but at a similar height to the cave, on the Western side, there is a small cairn on a promontory. I will post them and my take on the action for comment a little later today.

Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:14 pm

It seems all Franks photo's have disappeared.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:30 pm

This is one of Frank's. I am sure he won't mind. Could be you know.
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Steve
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:32 pm

Thanks Steve. I would say it was the same cave.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:43 pm

There are some similarities between the two photos but the caves look different, I don't think its the same cave, the chap standing on the extreme right is stood where that massive outcrop of rock should be. I've been wrong before though.
Another thought just occurred, the old photo isn't reversed is it?

As a negative shows lights as darks and darks as lights, a black backing was put behind the image to correct the contrast. The negative's mirror image could not be corrected, so all images including writing are in reverse.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:31 pm

I think Franks photo was taken 2014 the other 1906
So 105 years, so elements and vegetation growth might factor into it.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:59 pm

That's why I said "could be". The lie of the land is very similar and Frank's photo seems to have been taken from a lower angle which makes the rocks look different. The outcrop on the right sticks out further at the bottom as it does in the 1906 picture. I also wondered whether it was reversed but the chap on the left's tunic seems to button up the right way. On balance I think it is the same cave. Another thought, why bother to pose in front of a cave unless it has some significance? Could be wrong.

Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:08 pm

I'm still not convinced, I appreciate your point about the different angle but where has the overhanging rock gone above the entrance to the cave.
Waterloo
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:13 pm

We need someone more familiar with the site. Where are you Frank or Gary?

Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:19 pm

I'm still not convinced, I appreciate your point about the different angle but where has the overhanging rock gone that you can see in Franks photo above the entrance to the cave. If you place the chap on the right hand side of the cave and imagine him stood in the later picture he would be up against a massive rock.
Waterloo
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:29 pm

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:43 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
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All ready on forum!

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90th

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PostSubject: The Last Survivors Cave   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:01 pm

Hi Syeve
I'm catching a cruise ship from here in Melbourne in a couple of hours time , if you remember ( I won't ) ask me about posting some Cave pics when I get back on friday , I'll send what I have to ' Graves1879 ' I dont have many from memory , only a couple or so . Unless of coarse Frank posts his while I'm away .
Cheers 90th
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:12 pm

Couple of times you have done that littlehand! i do things
like that to add context in line with the discussion as the
thread is going along!. you could have obviously just
skipped by and made no comment! i was contextualizing
i hope you understand that.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:31 pm

Not really convinced with the photo's.

If you look on the right hand side of the old photo you will see a large outcrop of rock that looks a bit like the profile of a face with a sort of 'boxers nose', this is not shown on the more modern photo. Also there is an overhang above the cave on the old photo, but it is not there on the more modern one. Like Steve said, it could be the angle the picure was taken, but the face with the 'broken nose' is not shown on the modern one, and neither is the overhang above the cave entrance, however, it could be that they have fallen down since the old picture was taken, but somehow it just doesn't seem to be the same cave. Good talking point though. agree
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90th

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PostSubject: The Last Survivors Cave   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:36 pm

As most of us are aware there are several caves , I''ve only been to one , which is thought to be the one in which the soldier fired from . Frank hopefully will post his pics well before I get back friday Salute
90th
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:37 pm

Saw that, but them thought the angle of the photo is different. Best wait for Frank or 90th to confirm with their photos. It's a pity Franks photo's disappeared.
Trouble with photo bucket if you moved a photo from its original source it disappears, and replaces it with what you see now!
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:41 pm

The size of the cave in the 1906 photo, adds weight to the fact the story was true. There's is another photo on the forum of the supposed cave but it doesn't look like it could accommodate a person affording him protection. The 1906 photo does!
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:51 pm

From Ian Knight:

Do you believe that the last of the 24th died as depicted in the painting near the cave on the side of the hill? Or was in just Victorian melodrama?

"This incident is based on a Zulu account, so I think it probably did happen - but not quite as R.T. Moynan’s painting represents it! Moynan of course has the soldier standing upright in the cave entrance, falling forward as he is hit, his hand raised almost in a gesture of blessing, the Zulus at his feet looking on with awe, rather like the Roman soldiers before the crucified Christ! It’s a painting full of Victorian symbolism and assumptions about the ‘White Man’s Burden’ and the sacrifices necessary for a civilising mission. In fact, if it happened at all, I think it was much more unpleasant than the painting suggests. Although the entrance to the cave is fairly open, not unlike the painting, there is a much lower chamber at the back which extends a few more feet back into the mountain. It would just about be possible to crawl into that, and from there fire point-blank at any Zulus who put their head round the entrance to the cave. It would have been cramped, claustrophobic, smelly, and every shot would have been deafening and filled the cave with smoke. But - it would have been very difficult for the Zulus to get at him, which makes sense of the story that they couldn’t kill him until they got together and fired a volley into the cave - that would have entailed creeping up to the fallen boulders at the entrance, then firing into the smaller chamber at the back. The soldier probably hoped that he could have hidden there, and was unlucky to have been discovered in the first place - and it’s altogether a much bleaker and less heroic story than the painting conveys. Of course, although it is supposed to have taken place in one particular cave, at the foot of the cliffs behind the ‘Younghusband cairn’, there are other caves, and we don’t know for sure exactly where it happened. Nor have we any way of knowing whether this was the last survivor, or whether there were others whose stories were simply not recorded. "

Source: Questions submited to Ian Knight from forum members:  / Source 1879 AZW forum

I.E: I know, already on the forum Wink
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:03 am

Hi LH.

I can remember Gary posting a photo of a cave when he first went to iSandlwana, from the outside it did look big enough for a bloke to take cover in, but how deep it went I can only guess.

I see what you mean about the angle, but somehow they just don't look the same cave.

You are right LH, Frank might be able to throw some light on it mate. agree
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:27 am

Different caves.
There are a few caves along that stretch so its impossible to say exactly which one it is. The one I chose to photograph is close to the last, and highest cairn so that makes me believe it could be the one. Although it looks small by the way its pretty deep. Gary chose a cave a little further round the face, travel a little further and there are another two or three. As they say: "Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice marra."
Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:35 am

For some strange reason photobucket has chosen to remove 20 pages of photos.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:39 am

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:42 am

This angle has two caves. I have a feeling Gary posed in the one to the right.
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:23 am

I suppose a clincher as to what might be the correct cave would be if cartridge cases were found in one of the caves.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:30 am

eaton
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:21 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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Use the search box left hand side home page, to see if it's already on the forum before posting. Easy! !!! When you know how.


Do we know if the artist of the painting went to Isandlwana to get inspiration for the finished product.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:04 am

Dave, it seems the artist only got as far as Paris then returned to his home back in Ireland. So no he didn't visit the battlefield.
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:20 am

Dave,

To my knowledge the Dublin-born artist Richard Thomas Moynan did not visit South Africa.

At the time of the painting's first exhibition in 1883 he was studying at the Royal Hibernian Academy, Lower Abbey Street, Dublin.

John Y.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:52 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Different caves.
There are a few caves along that stretch so its impossible to say exactly which one it is. The one I chose to photograph is close to the last, and highest cairn so that makes me believe it could be the one. Although it looks small by the way its pretty deep. Gary chose a cave a little further round the face, travel a little further and there are another two or three. As they say: "Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice marra."
Cheers

Thanks for that Springy, it just looked a different cave from the earlier picture.

Tell you what mate, you showed your roots with the saying didn't you, ie; "Yer pays yer money yer makes yer choice MARRA". 'Marra' is a very typical word up here in these parts of Lancashire, it's meaning , as you no doubt know, is mate. It's mostly used round by Maryport way, I had an old mate came from there, he called his friends 'marra', it became his nickname, and when he played darts and got a good score, the chaps would say, good arra marra, LOL.

Cheers mate. Salute
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:38 pm


xhosa2000 wrote:

Enlarge this image



Use the search box left hand side home page, to see if it's already on the forum before posting. Easy! !!! When you know how. ..said dave.

Let me see if i can explain this slowly..as the debate was progressing, i thought Hmmm, i have
the image of Moynan to hand, so i popped it on. i remember i scanned it off the back cover of
'awful row ' in which knights original piece appeared, i'm sure you have your own copy dave!.
it was a legitimate thing to do, giving no thought to whether it was in another section of the forum.

Now your asking members to use the search facility before posting, who in this busy world has
either the time or inclination to do that!. what is the issue here?. so an image was used that is
already on the forum...in another place.. where is the problem. its not like littlehand has sole
copywrite, he does not!. i happen to have a quick mind but understand others are a lot slower.
i will of course continue to post in any way i see fit..and will be ignoring your advice on this
occasion.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:52 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:

xhosa2000 wrote:

Enlarge this image



Use the search box left hand side home page, to see if it's already on the forum before posting. Easy! !!! When you know how. ..said dave.

Let me see if i can explain this slowly..as the debate was progressing, i thought Hmmm, i have
the image of Moynan to hand, so i popped it on. i remember i scanned it off the back cover of
'awful row ' in which knights original piece appeared
, i'm sure you have your own copy dave!.
it was a legitimate thing to do, giving no thought to whether it was in another section of the forum.

Now your asking members to use the search facility before posting, who in this busy world has
either the time or inclination to do that!. what is the issue here?. so an image was used that is
already on the forum...in another place.. where is the problem. its not like littlehand has sole
copywrite, he does not!. i happen to have a quick mind but understand others are a lot slower.
i will of course continue to post in any way i see fit..and will be ignoring your advice on this
occasion.  

I'm quite busy, but happy to give you lesson (2)

If you know the source of the image post it. Easy when you know how! Very Happy
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:01 pm

Thank's dave, i refer you to the last sentence of my post!.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:36 pm

Only trying to help old boy, just trying to bring you up to the other members standards. Anyway I'll watch over you. Don't thank me,just trying to help a fellow member! agree


Last edited by Dave on Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:37 pm

Thanks LH & JY
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:56 pm


Only trying to help old boy, just trying to bring you up to the other members standards. Anyway I'll watch over you. Don't thank me,just trying to help a fellow member!. said dave.

Thanks mate, but i dont think i will ever reach the required standard..but your heartfelt
message of support has made my day! Very Happy but maybe we should get back on topic.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:02 pm

I have been trying to find the picture that Gary posted of himself stood outside of a cave at iSandlwana. I was going to compare it with the pictures above to see if I could spot anything that matched up, can't find the darn thing anywhere, it is on the forum somewhere, unless of course it was on photobucket and it's been taken off, does anyone know. scratch
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:00 pm

Martin photo no13

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But what's to say 90th had the right cave?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:04 pm

Hi LH.

Many thanks for that. Salute

It may not be the right cave, I just wanted to check for any sort of matches to the other pictures.

Cheers mate. agree
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:52 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:

Only trying to help old boy, just trying to bring you up to the other members standards. Anyway I'll watch over you. Don't thank me,just trying to help a fellow member!. said dave.

Thanks mate, but i dont think i will ever reach the required standard..but your heartfelt
message of support has made my day!  Very Happy  but maybe we should get back on topic.

Lesson 3

Instead of typing out what other members posts. Just hit the quote button. Then post what you want to say. Easy when you know how!

I done it with this post, any problems let me know!! agree
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:55 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Hi LH.

Many thanks for that. Salute

It may not be the right cave, I just wanted to check for any sort of matches to the other pictures.

Cheers mate. agree

Martin don't think it's the same cave, but I knew which photo you was referring too. Like you could find it.
Do we know for certain the image from 1906 is from Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:29 pm


xhosa2000 wrote:

Only trying to help old boy, just trying to bring you up to the other members standards. Anyway I'll watch over you. Don't thank me,just trying to help a fellow member!. said dave.

Thanks mate, but i dont think i will ever reach the required standard..but your heartfelt
message of support has made my day! Very Happy but maybe we should get back on topic.

Lesson 3

Instead of typing out what other members posts. Just hit the quote button. Then post what you want to say. Easy when you know how!

I done it with this post, any problems let me know!! agree...


Hello dave i hope your having a pleasant evening, again i thank you
sincerely for your kind offer of help, but i think i will just muddle
along doing thing's my own unique way. i'm so lucky i have the
attention of some fine chum's who shower me with so much goodwill,
i feel both lucky and privileged, god bless you for your good intention's. Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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Posts : 2507
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:42 am

Dave wrote:
Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Hi LH.

Many thanks for that. Salute

It may not be the right cave, I just wanted to check for any sort of matches to the other pictures.

Cheers mate. agree

Martin don't think it's the same cave, but I knew which photo you was referring too. Like you could find it.
Do we know for certain the image from 1906 is from Isandlwana.

Dave, according to the site that the 1906 picture came from, it was taken at iSandlwana.  

I don't think it is the same cave either, then again, does anyone know for certain which was the actual cave that the last man used?

It has been said that there are a number of caves on iSandlwana, so I suppose it could be any one of them.

It was also said that it was above the last stand of Younghusband, so maybe Frank or Gary will have a better idea of the position of the cave, but as yet, the 1906 picture does not seem to match any of the others that have been posted so far.

Gary is going again in May I think, so I will ask him to look for the large rock formation that is shown on the right hand side of the 1906 photo, it looks like the profile of a face with a boxers nose, if he can find it, we will at least have a reference to the position of the cave. agree
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barry

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Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: The Cave   Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:44 am

Hi All,
The picture  potpourri was a grand insight into military operations in Natal prior to and around the turn of the century.
However, many of the pictures pertained to the '06  Rebellion in operations around Nkandla. The NFA transitting their 9 pdr RML Field Battery through Noodesburg was one of the pictures confirming that .
The cave shot is not of the one on Isandlwana,  ( ie the last "Survivors"), it is thought that that picture was maybe taken in a range of hills NE of Nqutu, and perhaps is the one known as "Spanish" cave.

regards,

barry
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littlehand

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Posts : 7063
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: The Last Survivors Cave.   Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:36 pm

rusteze wrote:
This is one of Frank's. I am sure he won't mind. Could be you know.
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Steve
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