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 Incident at Ulundi.

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24th

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PostSubject: Incident at Ulundi.    Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:39 pm

Anyone heard of this before.

"SIXTY YEARS A QUEEN"

"The Zulus were brave men, with a high sense of honour. Major General Molyneaux thought they were foemen worthy of our steel. He says that as the laager was being formed one evening some Zulu messengers arrived. They were kept a day, well fed, and then sent off to Ulundi under an escort of a sergeant and six men of the 17th Lancers, to protect them from the Swazis, whom they held in much greater hatred than us. It was agreed that when they considered themselves in safety they should send the escort back. The sergeant afterward reported that when in a place between two batches of bush the messenger gave the arranged signal. A Zulu regiment rose suddenly and would have surrounded the escort, whereupon the messengers called out, the regiment opened, and let the Lancers return the way they had come"
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:47 pm

24th  agree   Salute 
Campaigning in south africa and egypt
major general w.c.f.molyneux. page 177.
1896.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:43 pm

What was the objective of the Zulu messagers in the first place. Who did they speak to and for what reason?
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:19 pm

CTSG,

This happened on 27th June 1879, the Zulu envoys were attempting to sue for a peaceful resolution on behalf of King Cetshwayo, or at the very least to negotiate a solution to Chelmsford's demands that were made on 5th June 1879.

They carried a letter written by Cornelius Vijn of behalf of Cetshwayo which was delivered to Lord Chelmsford.

Who did they speak to?  They worked their way up the chain of command, their initial contact was Redvers Buller, from him they passed on to Major-General Edward Newdigate, Commander of the IInd Division, who had them questioned, before passing on their letter to Chelmsford.

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:41 pm

This chap "Cornelius Vijn" seems to have been more loyal than Mr John Dunn.  scratch 
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PostSubject: Incident at Ulundi    Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:47 am

24th I doubt loyalty had anything to do with it , Vijn was made a prisoner of sorts , during the war at Ulundi , or house guest as was later mentioned ! . Vijn did take a chance in possibly that letter or another , stating the numbers of warriors LC was to come up against .
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:56 am

"Mr.Vijn is a young Dutchman, who crossed into Zululand for the purpose of trading just before the outbreak of the war, and fell into the hands of the Zulus. He kept a journal during his stay with his captors". " Cetshway's Dutchman"
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:11 pm

On the descent the advanced guard was met by some
messengers bearing a letter from the king, and the sword
of the Prince Imperial. Ketchwayo had, at the request of
Lord Chelmsford, sent for this item from the hands of the
small tribe by whom he had been killed.

The messengers were detained at the outpost, while the
letter and sword were carried to the general. the letter
was written by a trader named Vejn, it was addressed "
from Ketchwayo to Lord Chelmsford". on the outside Vejn
had, at the peril of his life,written " if you come, come
strong, there are 20.000 of them".

A noble warning, this generous message, and one that ought
to be remembered. There are many Zulu's around the King
who knew how to read English. if one of them had seen the
timely warning, death and most probably torture would have
been the fate of the writer of it. What anxious moments his
must have been as he saw the bearers press through the
crowds of Zulu's round the Royal Kraal.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:57 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Zulu Peace Envoys, originally published in The Graphic.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:53 pm

A day or two later some ambassadors from the King,
bearing two huge Tusk's of Ivory, were met and
brought in. One of these Tusk's was huge, it took
two men to carry it. The Embassy also brought
with them some 160 head of cattle, trek oxen cap-
tured at Isandula. their sleek and well fed appearance
contrasted with our thin and travel worn Bullock's.
the Ivory was returned and the cattle kept for some
days..

The sight of the Ivory aroused the natural desire inherent
in every soldier, especially inherent in those of fortune,
for plunder. vague stories of the wealth of the King went
about, splendid visions of loot, in the shape of Gold Dust,
Ivory, Ostrich Feather's, and Diamond's filled the soldier's
eyes. Incredible stories of the amount of treasure taken
at Isandula were circulated, we believe the real amount
was £300. it is needless to say these golden visions were
broken, not a man of the regulars being a sovereign the
better for any loot taken, some of the Irregular's got
small sums from deserted Kraal's. the amount altogether
we imagine was small, the men took pains to conceal any-
thing they did take, as they were afraid of being made to
disgorge.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:01 pm

Was this chap "Cornelius Vijn" rewarded for his efforts with the Zulu's.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:50 pm

SAS1,

Rewarded by whom? The British or the Zulu?

He was a trader and he was conducting his business with the Zulu after the Ultimatum had been issued in December 1878 and carried on with his little enterprise until after the Battle of Ulundi.

I obviously had his own agenda to line his pockets with filthy lucre, and if his customers were Zulu then so be it.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:14 pm

Any truth in this! Perhaps pay back for cutting the heads of British Soldiers at Isandlwana?

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Source: Dark trophies
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Vijn's memoir is a short and engaging read.  For obvious reasons he depicts himself as a victim of circumstance.  According to his account he was roughly handled away from Ulundi (and was lucky to escape death,) but found a degree of refuge there with Cetshwayo.  While I think Mr. Young's characterization is less than charitable -- "a man has to make a living," Vijn could argue -- he is almost obsessed with property, throughout the account.  OTOH, what should we expect of a lone trader who moved back and forth across that border in 1878-9?
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:35 pm

SAS1,

This is the full text of the paragraph in question:

Vijn wrote:
…Further the Zulus asked me ‘what it meant that at the beginning of a battle so many white birds, such as they had never seen before, came flying over them from the side if the Whites?  And why were they attacked also by dogs and apes, clothed and carrying fire-arms on their shoulders?’  One of them even told me that he had seen four lions in the laager.  They said, ‘The Whites don’t fight fairly; they bring animals to draw down destruction upon us.’  Also, ‘Why did the Whites cut off the heads of those who had fallen, and put them in their wagons?  What did they do with these heads?  Or was it to let the Queen see how they had fought?’…

Given the preamble to the reference about taking heads, can we actually believe that actual statement?

6pdr.,

The Zulu were Vijn's only customers, John Colenso states:

Quote :
Mr. Cornelius Vijn is a young Hollander, 23 years old, who has been 41/2 years in Natal, during three-fourths of which time (as he states) he has been trading in Zululand...

I find the account amusing as Vijn does some finger-pointing at John Dunn regarding firearms and making a fortune from Cetshwayo, yet neglects to mention what goods he bartered with the Zulu.

John Y.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:15 pm

Vjin was a sharp operator despite his young age.
spoke Zulu, and well understood their custom's!
so knew early on he was in no danger,especially
when he came under Cetshwayo's protection,he
did fine thank you, living and trading with the
Zulu..and after!! he virtually leads the hunt for the
fugitive king, Payment! for that failure, from Colley
through Wolsley, tells me he was a snake and at
the least two faced,renegade might be too strong
a term, dont think JY was being that harsh, Vjin
as the term goes ' swung ' both ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:28 pm

Sometime back one of them members, asked why the Zulu's hadn't just stood out of range of the British guns at Ulundi, and starve the Britsh into defeat or forced them to attack the Zulu's. Going by below Cetshwayo had the same idea. Just seems is army was out of control!

"Cornelius Vijn  was with Cetshwayo when the king learned of his army’s disobedience and subsequent defeat, wrote:

“When the King heard of the lost battle, he was exceedingly angry, and asked: ‘Who had given the word for his people to be allowed to fight against the Whites who had already entrenched themselves, since even in the open field one White
man was nearly as good as ten Zulu?’ ...for the King’s plan had always been, whenever the Whites entrenched themselves, to make his army pass them, in order to bring the Whites into the open field, or else surround them from a distance, and make them die of hunger. But his people had not the patience for all this
"
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:43 pm

"CETSHWATO'S DUTCHMAN" was edited by The Bishop Colenso! Therefore it's not worth the paper it's written on! Full of lie's
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:56 pm

From littlehand..Sometime back one of them members, asked why the Zulu's hadn't just stood out of range of the British guns at Ulundi, and starve the Britsh into defeat or forced them to attack the Zulu's.

The square would just keep moving, the irregular's would harry and inflict severe damage until the Zulu
responded! as indeed they did every time they was provoked in any engagement! Salute 

ctsg, looking forward to ' smelling you out ' re Colenso!  Suspect   Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:09 pm

Would have been a lot of hard work, keep moving the square in formation. The slightest break in the square would have been a weakness. Water would have been the main concern, any parties sent out would have been cut down.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:53 pm

really.. this shows the lack of even ( i was about to say knowledge )
but its worse! even the basic awareness of what one is saying! the Zulu
could retire and starve the british out!!! and i suggested tongue in cheek
that the british would just keep on coming and that the irregulars would
do their thing.

Sometime back one of them members, asked why the Zulu's hadn't just stood out of range of the British guns at Ulundi, and starve the Britsh into defeat or forced them to attack the Zulu's.

24th Wink  North Crealock, Wolsley, the British Empire!  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:56 pm

soz, Henry Hope  Joker 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:43 am

They moved. Into position, in a hollow square formation. Once they had got to a satisfactory location, they stopped and fortified. The British would never have fought the Zulu's in the open. They preferred to fight from a fortified position, as layed down in the stand orders.( Isandlwana being the exception)
The Zulu's up to this point had the upper hand in that they could move in any direction. While the British had limted movement. It would be interesting to know just how long the British could have remained there if the Zulu hadn't made the mistake of attacking. The logistics of moving the square, would have been enormous and risky! Here's an overview of what the British had at Ulundi!

The force consisted of the 2nd Division, under Major General Newdigate, numbering 1,870 Europeans, 530 Natives, and 8 guns, and the flying column under Brigadier General Wood, numbering 2,192 Europeans and 573 Natives, 4 guns, and 2 Gatlings, crossed the Umvolosi River at 6.15, and, marching in a hollow square, with the ammunition and intrenching tool carts and bearer company in its centre, reached an excellent position between Unodwengo and Ulundi about half-past eight. This had been observed by Colonel Buller the day before. Our fortified camp on the right bank of the Umvolosi was left with a garrison of about 900 Europeans, 250 Natives, and one Gatling gun, under Colonel Bellairs

So pulling up their skirts and side stepping to the left or right wasn't that straight forward.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:24 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Vjin was a sharp operator despite his young age.

Xhosa, Mr. Young -- essentially I agree with both of you.  I only meant that your local chamber of commerce might regard Mr. Vijn more charitably than was being suggested...not necessarily that I favor him.  One might attribute to him "an entrepreneurial spirit" (which is much valued in my home country) and we MUST credit him with having a big set of cojones.  But he was always out for #1 -- pretty much had to be in his line of work. Personally, I cast as skeptical an eye on his account as on Maori's. (This however has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Colenso's TRANSLATION -- sorry CTSG.)

I think Vijn's reflections on John Dunn is a case of "the pot painting the kettle black," especially wrt gun running...as Mr. Young suggested.  I assume that he was focusing on Vijn's clientele because he suspects they were easier to fleece.  Most likely that is true, but his customers had the option of severe recourse if he went too far...unless Cetshwayo protected him.

Let's face it -- men like him are more useful than sympathetic.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:02 am

24th
The Zulu could have done exactly as you suggested, just ignored the British and stay out of range. I never realised exactly how far the square travelled from the river to the battle site but its a fare old way, close to 2.5 miles.
Chelmsford could have been "The Grand Old Duke of York". But I have no doubt that Buller et al would have sallied forth and stung the amabuthu into action, as per Kambula.
The other tactical option to get the Zulus to attack of course would have been burn down the iKanda, there were around 4 of them. Nothing quite like getting the ancestral castle burned down to inspire a bit of rage.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:29 pm

So pulling up their skirts and side stepping to the left or right wasn't that straight forward. 24th  agree 

But think about it! yes the square was unwieldy, but look at the distance
it manoeuvred, that required rigid discipline, which we had in spades! alas
the Zulu did not! no they could not have stood off! and then watch as the
square slowly starved to death. it was in the Zulu psychi to charge despite
the losses, in order to gain close quarter combat, the irregulars provoked
premature attacks in a lot of the engagements of this war..and remember
this was no entrenchment. lord c wanted to show the Zulu that he could
beat them fair and square..in the open!.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:10 pm

A walk around the Square..
In our walk around the square we see that the ammunition waggons
and water carts are all most advantageously place by those in charge.
the doctors are busy at work with the red cross of st george flying
overhead, army hospital men are busy bringing them patients.
Archibald Forbes, who had laid a level hundred there would be no
fight, is there, looking not one whit dismayed at its loss; he stands
with notebook and pencil in hand, taking in everything at a glance, and
knowing probably more about the business in hand then anyone there.
Melton Prior is moving about also, sketch-book and pencil busily occupied,
surely a picture worth drawing was he now looking on. right well the spirit
of the thing was caught, as his pictures some weeks later proved. there too
was the clergyman Mr Coar, who was standing at the head of a grave, quietly
reading the burial service whilst the bullets whistled overhead.
a touching picture enough as the bodies were laid in a hastily prepared grave-
it was certainly a unique position for an army chaplain. However necessity
has no law and it may be necessary to move forward at once. There are the
Gatlings just up there, working busily, making a queer clicking noise as they
are fired. let us go up and see them, there gather a few Zulus about eighteen
or so; in a moment the deadly barrels are levelled,and they disappear in a
snow-wreath. a wounded artilleryman is sitting on the ground, he refuses to
be removed to hospital, but busies himself in filling the drums as they are
emptied; there is his blood on the barrels of one of them where he fell after
receiving his hurt.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:27 pm

"beat them fair and square..in the open!."

 Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:38 pm

So let's congratulate the British on a spectacular display on how to move a square formation onto the field of Battle. But when they stopped they fortified. The British did not attack and was not in a position to do so, bearing in mind they were facing 20000+ Zulus who were more than happy to engage the British in the open. You say LC wanted to fight the Zulus in the open, at Ulundi that didn't happen, the British were in a fortified position! the Zulu's were ordered to never attack a fortified poistion, they did not listen. If they had, and the Zulus hadn't attacked what do you think the outcome would have been.

I personally don't think the Lancers could have achieved anything, if they had been sent out, prior to the infantry battalions doing there bit and wearing the Zulu's down.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:57 pm

24th said.."So let's congratulate the British on a spectacular display on how to move a square formation onto the field of Battle. But when they stopped they fortified"..of course how stupid
of me! the square was not out in the open..and the troops erected corrugated sheets of tin all
along each side! hmmm i forgot about that.  Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:03 pm

To be out in the open, would be assiga against bayonet! Not hid behind Rifles. Cannon and Gatling gun!
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:15 pm

To be out in the open, would be assiga against bayonet! Not hid behind Rifles. Cannon and Gatling gun!

No point in being sniffy  Very Happy  reckon i champion the Zulu cause more than some! but you are
perfectly correct, they had the right..and fanatical bravery! we had state of the art modern
weaponry. but lets stick to facts and not be sidetracked by our admiration of these fantastic
people, Chelmsford believed he was fighting in the open, but after, more importantly the Zulu
agreed that this was so!  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:33 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:

Sometime back one of them members, asked why the Zulu's hadn't just stood out of range of the British guns at Ulundi, and starve the Britsh into defeat or forced them to attack the Zulu's.

 


Has anyone else ever heard of this daft reverse-siege type tactic? I certainly haven't!
I tell you what. Whoever it was, PM me your address. I will come sit in your house and watch your TV. You stand back and wait for me to get bored/hungry etc.
When I do, I will go get some food, then i will come back and do start all over again.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:45 pm

Passing through the crowded square between ambulances
and ammunition waggons we see Lord Chelmsford and his
staff.further on our own commander,colonel Buller with the
inevitable telescope, sitting motionless on his horse. then
General Wood and his staff, next General Newdigate with his.
the number of mounted officers in the square was large, and
it is a great wonder that more were not hit, considering that
all or the greater portion of the bullets were going high above
our heads.Colonel Glyn we next see, and many other well
known faces. Colonel Glyn's adjutant, or staff officer, we
forget which, was hit twice whilst on horseback..

So there was no ' hiding 'for the officer's in the square, once
Chelmsford's ' up ' they all were..
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:47 pm

kopie  Salute 
xhosa2000 wrote:

Sometime back one of them members, asked why the Zulu's hadn't just stood out of range of the British guns at Ulundi, and starve the Britsh into defeat or forced them to attack the Zulu's.

Not my words mate,  Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:48 pm

It's OK, I wasn't attributing this to you!!
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:50 pm

What would be the reasoning behind Cetshwayo saying never attacke a fortified position. The Square at Ulundi would have been no different that the battle of Blood River apart from the weapons. the Zulu charged into that!
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:52 pm

"
 "TELEGRAM FROM MAJOR GENERAL THE HON. H. CLIFFORD TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR, WAR (ST. VINCENT, JULY 23, 1879):—

 "JULY 6.

 "Following received from Chelmsford:—'Cetywayo not having complied with my demands by noon yesterday, July 3rd and having fired heavily on the troops at water, I returned the 114 cattle he had sent in, and ordered a reconnoissance to be made by the mounted force under Colonel Buller. This was effectually made, and caused the Zulu Army to advance and show itself. This morning a force under my command, consisting of the 2nd Division, under Major General Newdigate, numbering 1,870 Europeans, 530 Natives, and 8 guns, and the flying column under Brigadier General Wood, numbering 2,192 Europeans and 573 Natives, 4 guns, and 2 Gatlings, crossed the Umvolosi River at 6.15, and, marching in a hollow square, with the ammunition and intrenching tool carts and bearer company in its centre, reached an excellent position between Unodwengo and Ulundi about half-past eight. This had been observed by Colonel Buller the day before. Our fortified camp on the right bank of the Umvolosi was left with a garrison of about 900 Europeans, 250 Natives, and one Gatling gun, under Colonel Bellairs. Soon after half-past seven, the Zulu Army was seen leaving its bivouacs and advancing on every side. The engagement was shortly after commenced by the mounted men. By nine o'clock the attack was fully developed. At half-past nine the enemy wavered. The 17th Lancers, followed by the remainder of the mounted men, attacked them, and a general rout ensued. The prisoners state that Cetywayo was personally commanding, and had 1097 made all the arrangements himself, and that he witnessed the fight from Lickazi Kraal, and that 12 regiments took part in it. If so, 20,000 men attacked us. It is impossible to estimate with any correctness the loss of the enemy, owing to the extent of the country over which they attacked and retreated, but it could not have been less, I consider, than 1,000 killed. By noon Ulundi was in flames, and during the day all the military kraals of the Zulu Army and in the valley of the Umvolosi were destroyed. At 2 P.M. the return march to the camp of the column commenced. The behaviour of the troops under my command was extremely satisfactory. Their steadiness under a complete belt of fire was remarkable. The dash and enterprize of the mounted branches were all that could be wished, and the fire of the Artillery very good. A portion of the Zulu Forces approached our fortified camp, and at one time threatened to attack it. The Native Contingent forming a part of the garrison were sent out after the action, and assisted in pursuit. As I have fully accomplished the object for which I advanced, I consider I shall now be best carrying out Sir Garnet Wolseley's instructions by moving at once to Eulongamite, and thence towards Kamaguasa. I shall send back a portion of this force with, the empty waggons for supplies, which are now ready at Fort Marshall.

§ "'I beg to forward a list of casualties:—Killed.—2nd Division—Captain Wyatt-Edgell and Farrier Sergeant Taylor, 17th Lancers; Corporal Tompkinson and Private Coates, 58th Regiment; Private Kent, 94th Regiment; Trooper Sifona, Shepstone's Horse. Flying Column.—Corporal Carter, R.A.; Bugler J. Burnes, Private W. Dirdley, 13th Regiment; Private Floyd, 80th Regiment; Trooper Jones, K.N. (sic) Horse. Wounded.—2nd Division.—Dangerously—Troopers Jones and Charles "Waste, 17th Lancers; Privates H. Yalder and W. Bowner, 21st Regiment; Privates N. Fash, W. Stewart, and M. Marony, 58th Regiment; Private Muzazu, Shepstone's Horse. Severely—Major R. W. C. Winsloe, Privates Swadle, G. Brown, F. Fidler, and J. Daveny, 21st Regiment; Major W. D. Bond, Privates Catterell, H. Hawee, and W. Severett, 58th Regiment; Lieutenant H. C. Jenkins, 17th Lancers; Lieutenant A. B. Phipps, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment; Lieutenant G. E. Liebenrood and Sergeant Piper, 58th Regiment; Driver Breeman, R.A.; Hospital Bearer Mubique. Slightly—Lieutenant and Captain the Hon. R. S. G. Stapleton Cotton, Scots Guards; Lieutenant W. C. James, 2nd Dragoons; Lieutenant A. B. Milne, R.N.; Trooper J. Koyeau, 17th Lancers; Private Aly, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment; Private M. Murtah, 94th Regiment; Lieutenant Jenkins, Natal Native Contingent. Flying Column.—Dangerous—Lieutenant G. A. Pardoe, Private J. Davies, Mr. Shepstone, and Bugler M. Cockling, 13th Regiment; Gunner J. Morton, R.A.; Privates P. Tulley and W. Hunt, 80th Regiment; Trooper Leagdo, Mounted Basutos. Severely—Gunner W. Morshead, R.A.; Sergeant R. Wood, R.E.; Privates J. Bourne, H. Owens, C. Johnson, W. Heit, and J. Curing, 13th Regiment; Sergeant Onerill, Privates A. Beecroft and M. Duffy, 80th Regiment; Private J. Flood, 90th Regiment; Trooper P. Legos, Baker's Horse; 1098 Captain Hurber, Wood's Irregulars; Lieutenant Cowdell, Wood's Irregulars; Trooper Salein, Mounted Basutos. Slightly—Private P. Stokes, 13th Regiment.'"

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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:02 pm

your splitting hairs of course..any chance
of you speaking? whats the difference? we
were talking about an Entrenched
position not Fortified! are you
seriously suggesting any commander is
wrong to fortify!.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:27 pm

We just need to understand  " in the open "  The Zulu hadn't a chance, but would have done, if they hadn't attacked.

The siege of Eshowe lasted for 71 days. And those inside the fortified position survived because of LC intervention. The Zulus didn't attack, but prevented anyone entering or leaving. But Cetshwayo, had the right idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:24 pm


We just need to understand " in the open " The Zulu hadn't a chance, but would have done, if they hadn't attacked.

The siege of Eshowe lasted for 71 days. And those inside the fortified position survived because of LC intervention. The Zulus didn't attack, but prevented anyone entering or leaving. But Cetshwayo, had the right idea. thank you 24th  Salute  by the way who are we?..

your advancing ' what if's ' i think i would rather stick to the fact's! Eshowe is not the same,
you have seen how Wynne entrenched and fortified that place! the Zulu knew they could
not force that place without extreme casualties. and once the heliograph was up and
running the siege became more manageable, with the long term view of a positive outcome
if the second invasion went according to plan..it did! The Zulu got a hammering as Pearson
invested Eshowe and then another one when he was relieved, the British had massive store's
which never gave out! i'm more incline to believe with our scorched earth policy that the longer
the war went on it was the Zulu people who were in real danger of starvation.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:36 pm

"The traditionalism of Zulu tactics in 1879 than the matter of limited appropriate battle experience and lack of confidence in their firearms - is the fact that the Zulu believed that if they could only force the British to give battle in the open field, they would overwhelm the enemy with their numerically superior forces deployed for the traditional mass frontal attack. After all, when the Boers had left the protection of their wagon- laagers in 1838, Dingane's amablltho had routed their commandos on 10th April at eThaleni and again at the White Mfolozi on 26th December. They had also made short work in simiiar circumstances of the Voortrekkers' Port Natal allies at Ndondakusuka (the battle of the Thukela) on 17th April. Why should these successes not be repeated against the British in 1879? But battle had to be in the open, as in the three instances mentioned. Zulu tacticians had not failed to learn from the negative lessons of 1838 when at Veglaer on 13-15 August - and even more notably at Blood River on 16th December the amablltho had been thrown back with extraordinarily heavy losses from the carefully prepared and stoutly defended Boer wagon-Iaagers.
The dangers involved in trying to storm prepared positions such as laagers or forts were consequently all too evident, and King Cetshwayo categorically forbade his departing armies to attack any form of entrenchment where they would be pitilessly exposed to concentrated British fire-power. Instead, he ordered his generals to bypass all prepared enemy positions. By threatening both British lines of supply and the territory to their rear, this strategy was calculated to force the invaders to come out of their defensive works, to fight in the open. Alternatively, Zulu commanders should surround the entrenched British at a safe distance (as was later to happen at Eshowe) and attempt to starve them into submission or a disadvantageous sortie.
As sound as this strategy might have seemed in theory, it was nevertheless flawed at two levels. Its objective, as has been shown, was to bring the British into the open, but there was no guarantee that the Zulu would win a pitched battle in these circumstances, whatever their optimistic expectations. At lsandlwana on 22nd January 1879 the extended British firing-line delivered a sufficiently concentrated fire to pin down the Zulu centre until outflanked - even though the intervals between the troops in some companies were as far apart as ten paces and never less than about four. .At Nyezane on the same day, although ambushed in vulnerable extended marching order, the British were able to close up
efficiently and quell the Zulu attack in what amounted to an extended fire- fight.
Nor, did this strategy properly recognise the practical difficulties involved in actually keeping a Zulu army in the field supplied long enough to force the enemy to offer battle outside their entrenchments. For a Zulu army carried provisions sufficient for only a few days, and thereafter it depended on limited stores held in the district amakhanda or on what it could forage from homesteads in the vicinity. Furthermore, such a strategy required considerable discipline and patience on the part of the blockading army. But younger amabutho in particular, who were headstrong and highly competitive in their search for military glory, were notorious for their lack of restraint, and it would take exceptional skill and strength of will on a commander's part to bend them to such lack- lustre operations. Furthermore, it was usual practice for a Zulu army to disperse immediately after action for the absolutely necessary purification ceremonies following the ritually polluting shedding of blood, to report their deeds to the king, to share out the booty, and to recuperate from fatigue, hunger and wounds. The inevitability of such a dispersal after combat rendered it effectively impossible to concert strategy over a lengthy campaign; indeed, in 1879 the Zulu armies dispersed after each increasingly disheartening series of battles and had to be mustered again for the next round"

Source: Laband.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 pm

So whats the answer to 24th original question "what would the British had done if the Zulus had not attacked by remained static at a safe distance?" Would the Britsh have attacked?
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PostSubject: Incidnet at Ulundi    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 pm

24th for a start you are confusing the two camps , where you have highlighted about the zulu threatening to attack the Fortified camp , the writer is referring to Bellairs camp which was fortified '' ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER '' ! ( manned by the 24th regt among others if I'm not mistaken , also not shouting , emphasizing ) . This is in Paul Laband's book on the Battle of Ulundi among others , if you read carefully what you posted the writer mentions the Bellairs fortified position in his narrative . Ulundi wasnt an entrenched position as was Khambula , RD , Gingindlovhu   and the shabby effort at iNtombi ( Myer's Drift )   , a barrier of Cannon , Gatling Guns and rifles as you put it ,  is what hardly constitutes a fortified position ! . The British had already fought them in the open ....twice in my opinion , firstly at nYezane ( no entrenchments , no time to do so ! ) and Hlobane , as it was a mounted force also no entrenchments or fortifications .
90th
 
PS . Secondly , Blood River was a fortified position ! , if I'm not mistaken they had used their wagons to form a type of lagaar
in which they used the bush , brush etc to fill the empty spaces around and under the wagons , so as to prevent the zulu's from entering their position .


Last edited by 90th on Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:47 pm

Is any body forgetting, that this was the nadir of the Zulu nation!
it was in the Kings front parlour the ground where the square stood!
this was the last attempt by the Zulu nation to repel the
british invasion, the very last throw of the dice! forget what Cetshwayo
said about fortification's..it does not apply here! the Zulu were ' at bay! '.
all that was left was the pursuit of the absent King, and the shameful
partition that followed!
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:49 pm

that leaves one or possibly two! more..( we )  Very Happy   Salute 
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PostSubject: Incident at Ulundi    Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:57 pm

Agreed xhosa 2000 , there is no way were the zulu savvy enough to carry out such an undertaking , as to stand by , while the British troops are in sight of their Capital and Chiefdom . Different story at Etshowe , where it was more of a Fort than a hastily prepared fortification , the Zulu were clever enough to realise they didnt have a hope of taking that position , and If I'm not mistaken the zulu's in the Etshowe area were commanded by none other than Dabulamanzi , who had already tried his hand at attacking a fortified position , this being Rorke's Drift , so he had obviously learnt a painful lesson ! .
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:10 pm

90th wrote:
by none other than Dabulamanzi , who had already tried his hand at attacking a fortified position , this being Rorke's Drift , so he had obviously learnt a painful lesson.

But does not add weight, as to why the Zulus shouldn't have attacked the fortified position at Ulundi.
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PostSubject: Re: Incident at Ulundi.    Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:25 pm

it was there last ditched attempt to preserve
their very existence as an independent Zulu
Kingdom, if the enemy were in your street
what would you do! i suspect fight?.  Salute 
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PostSubject: Incident at Ulundi   Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:45 pm

Ulundi read xhosa's comment !  Salute 
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