WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
Colonel R.T. Glyn, 1/24th Regt. kwaSokhexe, Ulundi
[Mac and Shad](Isandula Collection)
Secrets Of The Dead The Mystery Of Zulu Dawn
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
Drummer Boy 14
 
Frank Allewell
 
90th
 
rusteze
 
ADMIN
 
Julian Whybra
 
SRB1965
 
ymob
 
xhosa2000
 
1879graves
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Helpmekaar field hospital

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:04 pm

Hi All,
Does anyone have any accurate data ( lat/long) on the location of the tented field hospital which was outside the walls of the Helpmekaar fort. It appears that t may have been located near the cemetery behind the present police station. This is not to be confused with the three or so hospital tents which were inside the walls of the fort.
There is quite an interesting story about the "death" tent there which I will be posting on shortly.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Barry
May be able to help you soon. Ive ordered some photos from the Cape Archives, one of which has, I think, the view your looking for. I get them on the 28th. Soon as I have them I will let you know.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:16 pm

Barry,

Is this one of any use?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The Laager at Helpmekaar, note the cemetery is in the middle rear centre.
John Young Collection

Or this one?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The cemetery at Helpmekaar
John Young Collection

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:31 pm

Hi Springbok, JohnY,
Thanks to both of you. Springbok , lets wait to see what the Archives come up with.
JohnY, thanks for two splendid pictures, the first one is of particular interest because in the upper left of the  first pic is a building with a corrugated iron roof. That was a general dealers store on the entrance road into the fort. But the troopers in that garrison grumbled, quote  "he did not sell any booze., ... and he could have made a fortune if he did"!!. unquote. The graves in that picture appear to be too close to the walls of the fort relative to the position of  the graveyard today behind the police station. However, the  distances are difficult to judge
The  second picture with the tents in the foreground  with the water barrel  is interesting but I don't think that there are enough of them to be hospital tents. I believe that we  may be looking for a group of 6-8 bell tents located some 100-300m (guestimate) on the periphery of the fort. I say that the hospital needs to be quite big because illness amongst the men was a large problem at Helpmekaar  with many suffering from dysentery, mental problems (pbsd) and battlefield wounds.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:49 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:00 pm

Hi JohnY
Further checking on the second picture of Helpmekaar showing the two water barrels on a cart and one bell tent behind it with some makeshift tarpaulin "tenting" is purported to have been taken on the Queens Cross expedition in the winter of 1880. The graves in the background, already marked with headstones, would also suggest that the sepia winter scene captured was post February/March 1879 too.
There were a whole series of Queens Cross expedition pictures taken, the more famous ones being Melville and Coghills resting place as well as a shot across the river, from the Natal side, of Fugitives Drift as well as of course the Prince Imperials memorial up at the Ityotyosi river. These were all published in the 1910 edition of The Nonquai, the Natal Police Magazine.

regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:12 pm

Barry,

I'm going have to beg to differ with you on your assumption.

The Helpmekaar photograph was by one of Kisch Brothers, either Henry or Benjamin as it is in one of their 1879 produced albums. Whereas the photographer who accompanied the Stabb & Bowker jaunt was George Taylor Ferneyhough.

Here's an example of Ferneyhough's work:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Stabb & Bowker expedition 1880.
John Young Collection

He also produced the butterfly nets at iSandlwana photograph, and Bowker and Jabez Molife at Rorke's Drift image. Personally I don't think he had the eye of Kischs or James Lloyd.

As to the graves being marked if you look carefully all six of the graves of the Natal Mounted Police and one other that of 2nd Lieutenant Franklin of the 24th are marked.

This is how the graves read left to right.

Trooper Benjamin Ingram N.M.P., 5th April 1879
Trooper Herbert J. Smythe, N.M.P., 27th February 1879
Trooper George Bennett N.M.P., 28th March 1879
Trooper Pierce P. Nagle, N.M.P., 7th March 1879
Trooper William Hayes N.M.P., 20th March 1879 (An iSandlwana survivor.)
2nd Lt. Reginald Franklin 2nd Bttn., 24th Regt., 20th February 1879 (Cross headstone.)
Corporal William Chaddock N.M.P., 16th April 1879

The graveyard should also have contained the grave of Trooper John Bruce Hay, Natal Carbineers, 4th March 1879, yet nothing appears to be apparent under a magnifying glass.

So as you can see it is post-16th April 1879 at the very least.

Which one of Melvill and Coghill's grave are you referring to? The one with of without armed men in it? Bearing in mind their grave was marked very quickly by Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere.

Regards,

John Y.


Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:32 am

Hi JohnY,
All very interesting. Thank You.
I do not have information on the identities of the actual photographers who were on the Queen's Cross expedition. They  may very well have been the people whom you mention.
However, my contention is that any pictures which show finished graves must have been taken at least 6-9 months post the burial as that would possibly have been the minimum lead time required to cut head stones ( In Ladysmith or Pmb, more likely the latter), having them hauled to site by ox wagon and erected on the graves. So what I am actually looking for is a pic taken in late summer 1879 of the Helpmekaar  fort and it's surrounds showing a bunch of bell tents outside the walls of the fortification. I think some members will have this shot,... if they know what to look for. My bet is on 90th and Springbok.
For general interest sake I will copy later today and post my shots of the  Queen's Cross expedition. I think the Coghill one will be of the first version of the grave stone erected.  Now, the quality of these sepia pics is shoddy by today's standards but were cutting edge technology of the day.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:26 am

Hi John
Hayes is there.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
in between Bennett and Ingram


Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:34 am

John if you look at your photo, there is an unmarked grave behind Ingram and one in between Ingram and Bennett. The unmarked one behind Ingram is still unmarked, look at my recent photo. Back to your shot the other unmarked grave is Hayes surely?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:15 am

Hi All,
I see that IK's ZR, has the picture sought after.
It appears amongst a series of pictures in ZR between pages 174/175.
There are 7 bell tents there in a straight line on the outside of the fortification.
The view is from an elevated position, of the fort from behind the general dealers store, which is in the right foreground. It was taken pm, in late summer.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:39 pm

Barry,

With regard your comment:

Barry wrote:
However, my contention is that any pictures which show finished graves must have been taken at least 6-9 months post the burial as that would possibly have been the minimum lead time required to cut head stones ( In Ladysmith or Pmb, more likely the latter), having them hauled to site by ox wagon and erected on the graves.

I take it that you are unaware that there was a stone-mason serving in the 2nd Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment?  Private 2nd-24th/1613 J. Melsop who was responsible this well-known memorial:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Melsop's Memorial, Rorke's Drift
©John Young 2013

Obviously I don't know what books you have in your collection, if you have Knight & Castle's The Zulu War Then & Now page 216 to see the military stone-masons at work on 2nd Lt. Franklin's gravestone whilst they were based at Rorke's Drift.  The same photograph appears in Brave Men's Blood page 76.  The photograph was taken by James Lloyd in March/April of 1879.  The same headstone in the one in the above photograph.

Melsop's sketch of his Rorke's Drift memorial appeared in The Illustrated London News of 14th June 1879.  The accompanying text states that the officer who supervised Melsop's work was no less than Brevet Major Gonville Bromhead.  Given the time it would have taken for an ordinary soldier's mail to reach the offices of the I.L.N., and then be worked-up into an engraving, I would conclude the original sketch may well have been made some six weeks previous.

Given the fairly simple design of the N.M.P. graves at Helpmekaar, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Melsop may have had his hand in those as well.

Melsop purchased his discharge in Natal in November 1879.

Just my contentions.

Frank,

Thanks for your photograph of Hay's grave.  I post something elsewhere to interest you!

Regards,

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:02 am

Hi John,
Thanks for that information about Melsop, the 2/24th stonemason.
It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Melsop may have done other than 2/24th work, but I do also know that the NMP made extensive use of a Pmb stonemason, one Jesse Smith and Son, Commercial road, corner of Loop Street, Maritzburg. Most of the Helpmekaar graves are those of NMP deceased.
If my memory serves me correctly some of the monuments erected on the 1880 Queens Cross expedition were even brought in from the UK, already made. It would be interesting to examine the memorial stones to see who made them.
However, all of that is an interesting by-the-bye re my search for the site of the Helpmekaar field hospital.

regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:10 am

I will post some photos later to try and prove my point which is: there are two distinct types of headstones ( ignoring the odd specialised units) Its highly possible your both correct. Those of Bennett and William Hayes are very similar to Rorkes Drift but a great percentage of the balance smack of a more 'factory' approach.
Barry
I should have some photos on Friday, Hopefully the one your looking for is with them.
John
Looking for the 'interesting' post you refered to ?

Regards

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:31 am

This Chaddock who I believe was carved on site, Melsop?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
This is Ingram, a completely different style and more industrial
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
And here again is Hay
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Now compare Chaddock with known Melsop work
Seems to match up
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

JY
I don't know if you have Zulu Rising. If you do have a look at the photo Barry refered to. Its taken from the opposite angle, from the hill looking back at the fort. In front to the right is the old building, to the front centre is a stone walled area, would that be the cemetery?
If it is there is an absence of graves that would put that photo at some time in February, before the first deaths. Or am I reading it wrong?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:40 am

I wonder if this is the same Melsop?

DEPOT NAB
SOURCE MSC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 1/184
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 174
PART 1
DESCRIPTION MELLSOP, JOHN ARTHUR. INSOLVENT ESTATE.
STARTING 18820000
ENDING 18820000
REMARKS ALSO SPELT AS MELSOP. DAMAGED VOLUME NOT FOR CONSULTING.

That is in 1882 Pietermaritzburg. Melsop did take his discharge in Natal. Unfortunatly the file cant be accessed.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:04 am

This is the cemetery now, bit of a change with yours John.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Kenny



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:42 am

It is the same Mellsop (2-24/1613) who crafted the 24th Memorial at Rorke's Drift - there is a contemporary photograph of him working on the Franklyn headstone.  Mellsop's sons were commissioned into the South Wales Borderers and served with distinction in the Great War.

The photo that John Young uses you can just see Mellsop's work at RD before the wall was erected around the cemetery.
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: helpmekkar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:56 am

Hi Springbok,

Thanks for all of those pictures. I would agree that there were possible two or more stonemasons involved with headstone manufacture.
Your  picture of the present graveyard is the ''wooded" version of Johns. The flora in the area has proliferated considerably over the past 130 years. That graveyard is now surrounded with wattle and bluegum tress , as your pic well illustrates.
IK's pic presents a different orientation, and based on what I think I see there the line of 7 tents would be to the western most side of the fort, ie to the left front of the "water cart" picture . Now another thought has occurred to me; during the day the tents were  erected and they were  pulled down  at night and the troops slept inside the fort, so, maybe those are not hospital tents we see.
That area to the left centre I believe too is the beginnings of the cemetery, so that would indeed date the picture  to early February.

regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:05 am

Barry enlarge the JY photo, along side the general dealers is a large white tent that isn't in the earlier IK shot. That General dealers was a secure position and could have easily formed part of the defences. Would it be a possibility that the tent at the back was the hospital tent, certainly big enough, and the structure of the store used to close up at night time.
Just thinking aloud.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:28 pm

Hi Springbok,
Correct, I too see in IK's picture what looks like a canvas structure added to the back of the Helpmekaar supply store.  
However, I have no knowledge of that building being part of the defenses ,  it was some way up the road so it would have been unlikely.  We will never know exactly what happened there from day to day however as the pictures we have only represent a microcosm in time.
 
The post I will shortly be making reports what a patient  of the hospital  had to say about his experiences there in Feb/Mar '79 and specifically mentions bell  hospital tents  and their location being some distance away from the fort.

However, a deeper look into JY's picture further convinces me that it was taken very much post first quartile 1879.

* I see behind the two barrel water cart a fixed  gum pole gantry with a pulley attached, which was most probably used to lift the barrels off the cart.
* outside the middle bell tent I see what looks  like a permanent brick flue built integral with that  tent.

These two fixtures  would perhaps suggest some permanence and the team housed in the tents were there for a time  on some mission and didn't seem to be under any duress.

regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:48 pm

Springy,

Ingram's headstone in your photograph is not the original one! It is a replacement the original was the same design as the one Chaddock you have posted. Hence why it looks industrial.

Hay of the Natal Carbineers was the son of a General Officer, I imagine that was constructed in PMB, as the stone was erected by his comrades.

Barry,

The main hospital tent is the marquee close to earthwork wall just to the right of the two soldiers sitting on top of the mealie bags.

However, there is a piece on Helpmekaar in The Graphic for the 29th March 1879, which shows the tents outside of the earthwork being struck at sunset.

But this is what I think you are after.

There was a shelter camp formed outside of the fort which was also protected by an earthwork, built under the direction of Colonel Bray of the 4th (King's Own) Regiment. There was a marquee in the shelter camp that was used a hospital tent. Smaller bell tents were used for sick officers, and the remaining tents were used by 5th (Field) Company, Royal Engineers. I have tried to scan the pages but they are too big and I'm not going to force it.

Also can I clarify something when I mention the Queen's Cross expedition, I am not referring to the visit of the exiled-Empress of France. To my knowledge the aim of the Stabb & Bowker's expedition was to do one thing and one thing only - erect the Queen's Cross. To my knowledge there were no other memorials erected by Stabb & Bowker. You may possibly be confusing it with Wood's party that were with Eugenie when you mention ...some of the monuments erected on the 1880 Queens Cross expedition were even brought in from the UK, already made.

As to frame-work construction you mention, I would say it was for stretching riems like its counterpart at Rorke's Drift, just my thought.

As to the flue on the tent given that fort was in use from November 1878 until the conclusion of the campaign you would expect to see some degree of permanency wouldn't you?

Regards,

John Y.

Back to top Go down
Online
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:33 am

Steve,

Thanks for that, it saves me looking at my odd pages for them.

Regards,

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:24 am

Hi JY, Springbok, Chard and Rusteze,

Thanks for all of that sleuthing and pictures.
It certainly brings back to life a place that today with its overgrowth, slight mounds and ditchs, is not recognizable as an erstwhile fort/camp.
I see from the sketchs that the entrance to the fort was at its easternmost end, which today butts on to a wattle grove, and judging by the various illustrations ,the tents outside the walls were aligned along the  southwestern wall of the fort, as illustrated in IK's picture in ZR.  I note too that the date of the main sketched picture is 29th March 1879. All very interesting.

regards

barry

PS; Geolocating the Helpmekaar hospital marquee, and using grid locs from Kens latest AZW field guide and Laband's Field Guide, The War in Zululand (1983), I have come up with 28deg 27.782' S , 30deg 24.945' E. The present dam was a starting point for measurement.
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:52 am

Barry,

29th March 1879 was the date of publication, as per one of my previous points we are talking about five to six weeks after the sketch was made.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:01 am

And therein Gentlemen rests the beauty of this forum, the ability to share information and learn. Great co operation from one and all.

JY
If Ingram was a replacement does that mean that Nagel Smyth etc where as well? They are all from the same 'factory'

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:05 am

Springy,

If they look like Ingram's then yes.

Regards,

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:16 am

John
I will pop some photos on a little later.
Do you agree on the similarity between the RD monument and Chaddocks headstone? That one in particular has to be Melsops work.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9342
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Helpmekaar Field Hospital    Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:11 am

Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar camp   Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:09 am


Hi 90th
Thanks for that link. I am sure that there will be some on this forum, who now having read up about Helpmekaar and the tough conditions there, will be interested in the offering.


regards

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:42 pm

Barry
Heres the photo I found in the archives:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The fort is dead centre ( a bit indistinct ) with the row of bell tents to the right.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: The Helpmekaar hospital   Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:30 pm

Hi Springbok,
Many thanks for that picture from the Cape Archives.
If I interpret it correctly the view is from the south looking north and the fort is  mid picture. The supply store managed by the baboon is on the horizon to the left of the fort. The tents to the left look like those used as the hospital , that places them on the edge of that small rocky escarpment to the south of the fort, ie on the sw boundary of the fort, as depicted in the IK picture.  The tents to the right foreground look like those shown in the 'two waterbarrel' picture. Do you have that interpretation too?
I have become so curious about this that I was about to pump tyres and tank up with 80l diesel and head down there this weekend. It is only 450km from here, one way, and could be done in a day if no stops were made to  to pick daiseys.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:05 pm

Hi Barry
Yeah weve got the same sort of viewpoint, its an interesting shot from below the cemetery area also gives a nice wide view point. Im managed to pick up a few photos, hopefully new to the forum.
Don't head down there now, Stormers are playing in an hour  Very Happy 

Cheers Mate
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:11 pm

Hi Springbok,
I see that David Rattray's guide to the Anglo -Zulu War Battlefields (edited by Greaves), page37, has yet another picture of the Helpmekaar Fort.
Unfortunately the resolution is not too good, and there is small magnification, so detail is difficult to see, but picket lines of horses and large bell tents are visible in the background outside the fortification. The view is from the side of the iron sheds.
My assessment is that it is a pre-war picture.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar hospital.   Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:05 am

Hi All,

I see that Sheila Henderson has written about Helpmekaar hospital in the past.
Does any member , perchance, have a copy of her work?

regards,

barry
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9342
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Helpmekaar Field Hospital   Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:14 am

Hi Barry.
Sorry , no , I dont think I know of her ?
Cheers 90th
Back to top Go down
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar hospital   Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:54 am

Hi 90th,

I am not familiar with her name either, but I see that she has work, under the title "Helpmekaar hospital ", lodged in the Talana museum.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:23 am

Sheila is a very famous lady in the Dundee/Ladysmith area. Historian, writer, researcher and was / is chairman of the board of trustees for the Talana Museum.
She has been quoted on the forum in the past I seem to recall.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:43 pm

Springy,

I've been searching my archives of late to find where I'd hidden this one, and finally I found it tonight!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Military stone masons at Rorke's Drift.
John Young Collection.

Photographed by James Lloyd.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:51 pm

Barry,

Sheila wrote a piece 'The Turbulent Frontier - Biggarsberg and Buffalo at the Crossroads' which was published in The Zulu War and the Colony of Natal published in 1979 on behalf of The Natal Provincial Administration. She touches briefly on the conditions and the buildings at Helpmekaar in the piece.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: Helpmekaar field hosptal, Sheila Henderson   Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:37 am

JohnY,
Thanks for that.
As I will be down in KZN in a few days time I will try and pick up a copy of her work.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:16 am

Hi John
That's such a descriptive photo of "the stonemasons at work". I know that Ian Knight put in a lot of effort to locate that exact location and tried to no avail to locate any stone chippings.
Thanks for sharing all of those photos John. I seem to recall another photo of the Tugela Pontoon bridge looking from Down stream back wards at the pontoon, must try and find it.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:52 pm

The Helpmekaar encampment from above:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
An engraving from Pictorial World 20th September 1879.
John Young Collection.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
barry

avatar

Posts : 820
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Port Elizabeth, Z.A.

PostSubject: The Helpmekaar encampment   Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:49 pm

Hi JY,
Thanks for posting.
This picture gives some idea of the spread of the tents across a wide surface area and not just around the walls of the fort. In this artists  rendition of that scene  the vertical perspectives are a little exaggerated, but that does not matter too much.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:15 pm

Frank,

Re-your post of 28th February 2014, rather than Helpmekaar the photograph from the archives is actually Fort Jones.

The sheds were dismantled and moved from Helpmekaar to Fort Jones, Dundee in preparation for the 2nd Invasion.

Here's a copy of one of my photographs from my Kisch album.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Fort Jones, circa May 1879.
John Young Collection.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
Kenny



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:19 pm

Barry

The photo labelled by John Young as 'Military Stone Masons at Rorke's Drift' is in fact Helpmekaar and the headstone I believe is that for Lt Reginald Franklyn 2/24th.

There are a number of illustrations of Helpmekaar created by Lt William Whitelocke Lloyd 1/24h in David Rattray's book - 'Soldier-Artist in Zululand'. Lloyd and Franklyn shared a cabin on the Balmoral Castle.
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:27 pm

Kenny,

I'll agree to differ you there as it certainly looks like 'Fort Bromhead' in the background with the trees off to the right where the hospital once stood.

I have previously suggested elsewhere that the headstone was that of 2nd Lieutenant Reginald William Franklin, of the 2nd/24th.

Regards,

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
Kenny



Posts : 293
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:37 pm

John

I read somewhere that the Franklin (sorry about the mis-spelling my mind was distracted while working on things Gallipoli) headstone was crafted by 1613 Melsop who also made the 24th Memorial at Fort Bromhead.
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1290
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:49 pm

Kenny,

Yes it in the posts above!

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:06 pm

Sorry should have added, my take on the position of the first photo.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Helpmekaar field hospital   

Back to top Go down
 
Helpmekaar field hospital
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: