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 Source for faulty revolver

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John Young
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Frank Allewell

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Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 23, 2014 7:55 pm

If nothing else it would keep the Rainman busy chunnering away for a few years.  Shocked 
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 23, 2014 8:18 pm

Always had a question mark over Coghill? Time will tell?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyThu Apr 24, 2014 6:43 pm

Is it not possible Coghill took another route. Until Springbok pointed out that the trail was a lot larger than we thought!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyThu Apr 24, 2014 7:03 pm

impi
I think a few Zulus might have got in his way if he'd taken another route! That was the point of the Fugitives' Trail - once the RD track was pinched off it was the only route open to the south-west and not one open by choice!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyThu Apr 24, 2014 7:17 pm

But it was extremely wide, not a trail in the normal sense. If you look at Google Earth the most Southern Cairns are very close to the drop of to the Mzinyathi. The Northern are just about on the edge of the cliff leading down into the re entry. That measures close to 600 metres. Which could alos account for some of the differences in sightings: an example would be Smith Dorriens sighting of Coghill being " some half a mile ahead". If SD was on the Northern side, and there is support for that, and Coghill was on the Southern side then they were half a mile apart, therefore if Melvill was in close proximity to SD then that statement makes sense. But then if you can track both routes they would converge to a degree.
My point Im trying to make is you cant look at the statements without taking into account the ground conditions and also the conditions the riders were operating under.
I would also make the point that the 'trail' was only 'pinched of' when they descended onto the flood plain of the Mzinyathi, not going over Mpethe, the danger there was the pursuit from East.

Cheers

Cheers
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptySun Apr 27, 2014 3:51 pm

Found this on the web. A map showing Melvill and Higginson taking one route and Coghill another although meeting at the point where they cross. Is it possible this could answer one Coghill appears behind Melvill. Just a thought ?

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Source [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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DrummerBoy 16




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptySun Apr 27, 2014 8:34 pm

So the original question i asked about the source for the faulty revolver - basically just another one of the rumors ?


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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 11:20 am

DB
The fact remains that Higginson as an eye-witness recorded that both men had revolvers and he saw them use them.
He would have no reason to lie about this.
Much as some would like to, a good historian doesn't tamper with primary-source testimony until he can positively disprove or discount it.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 3:01 pm

Ulundi
The map was produced by George Chadwick but cannot be considered accurate, there is no testimony pointing out the exact crossing points. Brickhill probably comes closest. But even then, those two crossing points are a matter of 20 metres apart.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 3:04 pm

springbok
I agree. Chadwick's map is based on what exactly? Wishful thinking?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 3:27 pm

I believe its loosely based on Brickhills comment that Coghill 'crossed higher up'. No other reasoning that I can see at all. The whole crossing area is a mystery on its own, from the so called Smith Dorrien pool to the sand bank to the rapids. Ive sat on those banks for hours trying to visualise it all, and all Ive achieved is falling asleep !!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 3:47 pm

Ah well! Some good came out of it then!
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 5:37 pm

Who can corroborate apart from Higginson, they both had revolvers?
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 6:16 pm

John
No-one. No-one else was there apart from the Zulus.
That's the point.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:01 pm

So how can we take the word of a proven liar. That it happened?


Last edited by John on Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:13 pm

John
For goodness' sake, where's your historical perspective! For what reason would Higginson state that Melvill and Coghill had revolvers if they didn't? One can't cast doubt over every detail of his entire testimony - that would be unreasonable in the extreme. Something about baby and the bathwater?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:15 pm

To show they were able to defend themselves, without his help!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:17 pm

For what purpose?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:29 pm

So he could give himself the off, on the pretence to find some horses.

Odd how Brickhill doesn't mention Higginson, although he was with Melvill right up to hitting the river?

Eitherway, we only have Higginson's word for what took place, based on his conduct after the event, it would be of personal preference what one thinks about his account.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 7:55 pm

If he was lying, he was taking a hell of a risk in case someone saw the events he described - as you mention Brickhill was nearby but must have ridden off very quickly.
Lots of survivors abandoned others on the trail - like Richardson and Gamble - it was a matter of sauve qui peut and to be honest, Higginson was in no position to help either.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 8:06 pm

JW wrote:
Higginson was in no position to help either

But he led Coghill and Melvill to believe that he was helping, by going to find some horses. It's what he done after the event. He took some blokes horse, and left him. Just as he did M & C.

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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 8:10 pm

Just going of track, didn't someone ride into a town on M or C horse? Or is that someone else! On another officers horse!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 8:26 pm

Yes, he did try to find horses and DID take Barker's promising to send it back for him by which time it was all up with M & C - that's very true.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 8:39 pm

Come on Julian. Next you be saying Higginson assisted in the endeavours to save the Queens Colours.

Do you have Higginson's account which states he saw them with revolvers.

The text I read says Higginson heard shots, and on looking round saw M & C surrounded by Zulu's
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 9:08 pm

John wrote:
Come on Julian. Next you be saying Higginson assisted in the endeavours to save the Queens Colours.

John I think your find, Higginson's mother did receive a letter from the Military Secretary acknowledging just that.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 9:42 pm

John,

John wrote:
Just going of track, didn't someone ride into a town on M or C horse?


William Calverley rode into Khambula Camp on 24th February 1879 to negotiate the defection of Prince Hamu.  He was mounted on Nevill Coghill's horse, he also carried a Martini-Henry rifle and water-bottle both - allegedly - marked to the 24th Regiment.

John Y.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyMon Apr 28, 2014 10:11 pm

Thanks John, that's the chap. Do we know how Coghill come to loose his own horse at Isandlwana!
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 12:47 am

scratch  Wasn't the horse Coghill esacped on his own! Which was shot dead as he cross the river?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 7:40 am

SAS1,

Most officers had more than one horse with them on campaign.

John Y.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 9:14 am

But I think in Coghill's case it has been mentioned on here before, the he was riding an unfamiliar horse, along with a injured knee. So it appears he found one and made good his escape.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 10:28 am

John

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I haven't mentioned colours.  It's easy meat to discredit people and dismiss remarks after 150 years; it's not so easy to find creditable reliable testimony about an obscure event or to sort wheat from chaff in testimony where someone's personal behaviour may have been found wanting.   Covering his own unfortunate selfish act regarding Barker does not make Higginson an out-and-out liar.  Neither does it make his whole testimony suspect.  I'm not apologizing for Higginson, I'm not defending him; I'm after the truth.  I'm merely stating that Higginson was the only witness to M&C's deaths, he left a report, and would have no reason to lie over small details.  (If he wanted to lie, he could say he didn't see M&C at all.)  With other Europeans around them Higginson could not be sure that there weren't other witnesses to this same event.  (Williams for example was just behind M&C at the river.)

Re Higginson's report, I would have thought you had already read it before commenting on it but, since you haven't, it says:
"Coghill called out "Here they come."  I turned and saw only two men close to us, and turning to Melville [sic] said "For God's sake fire, you both have revolvers": they did so and I saw both Zulus drop; Melville then said "I am done up, I can go no further."  Coghill said the same.  I ran on, passed them, and got to the top of a hill, where a few Basutos on horseback had stopped, seeing me coming...I could see nothing of the two fellows behind me, so I guessed they had been overtaken."
The punctuation is Higginson's.  

It was case of every man for himself.  No-one blamed Brickhill for ignoring Gamble's plea "For God's sake, give me a lift"; no-one blamed Williams for ignoring Gamble either.  No-one blamed Bickley for not helping Richardson.  Selflessness was admirable where it happened but it wasn't uniform.  'Cast not the mote...' as my old dad used to say.

sas1

Coghill's letters home state that he rode up to the camp with his (mounted) servant leading a spare horse.  As JY says, officers had a spare horse.  

Williams saw Coghill's horse assegaied in the thigh soon after crossing the saddle.  Coghill must have picked up another because Williams saw M&C later.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 2:12 pm

William Tarboton
Born: 1847, Thorner, West Yorkshire, England, UK
Christened: 19 Apr 1847, St Peter, Thorner, West Yorkshire, England, UK.

"General Notes:

Twin of Robert

The following courtesy of Richard Bould:

"William fought in the Battle of Isandlawana, and survived. He returned and farmed on the family farm at Byrne. He died tragically according to an article written, at this time cause unknown. Both he and his brother were members of the Carbineers and both fought in the Battle of Isandlwana, Edwin losing his life in a fierce defeat of the British forces at the hands of the Zulu's, following are short extracts from accounts of these two brothers recorded in the book "Isandwana" by Adrian Greeves and also the book "The Sun turned Black" by Ian Knight. (There was an eclipse of the Sun during the Battle of Isandlwana)
THE FLIGHT FROM ISANDLWANA Extract from ISANDLWANA by Adrian Greeves page 131
It would appear that Captain Penn Symons subjective report was based largely on comments made by Higginson on his arrival at Helpmakaar after fleeing from Isandlwana, Higginson stated that he had left Coghill and Melvill after the three of them had safely reached the Natal bank. It is probable that all three believed they were then safe as Higginson initially related how he, being the fittest, then left the two exhausted British officers in order to find some horses. He claimed to have found two spare horses and. on reaching a vantage point, seen the bodies of Coghill and Melvill surrounded by Zulus. Unable to help them he then rode off to Helpmekaar. However protected by the covering fire of Lieutenant Charles Raw's Mounted Basutos who had safely gained the Natal bank, two troopers. Barker and Tarboton had managed to swim their horses across the flooded Buffalo river to join them. The group then rode up the steep Natal side of the bank until they were out of range of the Zulu marksmen on the far bank. Looking back they saw a distant figure scrambling on foot towards them. While his companions rode on, Barker rode back down the hill and met the figure that turned out to be Higginson. As his horse was in no state to carry them both back up the steep slope, Barker surrendered his mount to the exhausted officer but implored him to wait for him at the top of the hill. Higginson gave his promise then spurred the horse up the hill, leaving Barker to follow on foot. With natives closing in around him (no doubt the same natives who in due course killed Melvill and Coghill), Barker struggled to the summit only to find that Higginson had galloped off leaving him to his fate. The exhausted Barker was forced to run for his life and was pursued for another 3 miles before the natives finally gave up the chase. In the meantime Higginson had come across Tarboton and Lieutenants Raw and Henderson together with some Basutos who had waited on the Helpmekaar track for Barker to rejoin them. Perhaps certain that Barker must by this time have been overtaken by the Zulus. Higginson at first insisted that he had found the horse down at the Buffalo river. Tarboton though, immediately recognized Barker's horse which Higginson relinquished in exchange.
Ref The Sun Turned Black Pages 140,150,155,205
THE HUNTING TRAIL extracted on page 140
The only body who seemed to have made and organized retreat were the Edendale Troop. Brickhill had seen a group of "Basutus" keeping up a steady fire from under the rocks by the Nek, and, since the Edendale men were the only ones who had managed to secure a small supply of ammunition these were they. They then joined the general movement across country; It was terrible country as Brickhill described; Our flight I shall never forget, no path, no track, boulders everywhere, on we went borne now into some dry torrent bed, now weaving our way amongst trees of stunted growth so that unless you made the best use of your eyes you were in constant danger of colliding against some tree or finding yourself unhorsed at the bottom of some ravine. Our way was already strewn with shields, assegais, blankets, hats, clothing of all descriptions, guns, ammunition, belts, saddles which horses had managed to kick off, revolver and belt and I dont know what not. Whilst our stampede was composed of mules with and without pack saddles, oxen, horses and all stages of equipment and flying men all strangely intermingled - man and beast apparently all infected with the danger which surrounded us. Not all were simply fleeing; "up to this time" claimed Trooper Barker of the carbineers, "I had never thought of disaster; but only that we were retiring to a point to rally". Just beyond the road we met Trooper W. Tarboton; Tarbotons brother was also at Isandlwana and he had lost sight of him in the confusion. He asked barker to come back and help him search and since Barker had been separated form his friend Hawkins he agreed. " As we got sight of the camp" said Barker, " from a hill we both for the first time realized what had happened" Both Barker and Tarboton turned away, but many small groups of Redcoats, even here and there an individual soldier were making desperate stands up the slope to the South West of the track. Some were pushed right down into the dongas by the banks of the Manzimnyama itself - nearly two miles from the camp. While these knots of troops held together they probably had some idea of falling back on Rorkes Drift. The distinctive outline of Shiyane is clearly visible from the Nekand for most of the force it must have represented the only point where they knew they could cross the Mzinyathi safely, and where there was garrison to support them. In the event the route they actually took was dictated by Zulu pressure; cut off from the road by the right horn, the fugitives turned to the left in an attempt to go around the point. They had not gone far however when the left horn came over the ridge south of Mahlambamkhosi, and forced them sharply right again. The tips of the horns did not quite meet and the fugitives made for the gap between them which shifted as the warriors chased them on both sides. The fugitives were funnelled down the valley of the Manzimanyama still trying to head in the direction of Rorkes Drift harried this way and that by by their persuers. Finally they were spilled onto the heights above the Mzinyati where it enters the rough country about five miles south of Rorkes Drift. Troopers Barker and Tarboton of the Carbineers had crossed the river safely and had climbed the hill on the Natal side when they began to look around for any of their comrades. Barker saw a man behind him in the valley whom he thought was Hawkins, but when he went to fetch him he found it was Lieutenant Higginson. Barker allowed him to mount his own horse, which was too tired to take both of them; but once up Higginson rode off, leaving Barker to follow on foot. Barker had walked about three miles in a disgusted state of mind when Tarboton and some others rode back for him. They had met Higginson and recovered Barkers horse; Higginson had admitted frankly that he had been too exhausted to walk any further. And so the remnants of No 3 column straggled back to the very point they had started from a fortnight before. Among them was not to be found a single one of the 1/24th Officers who had laughingly drunk Degacher's and Porteous' toast in their crate and tarpaulin mess, "to better luck this time" These remained with their friends and comrades black and white 1357 of them - on the slopes of Isandlawana.
Almost four months to the day a force under Colonel Drury-Lowe returned to the Battle site. No medical reports were ever compiled on the dead of Isandlwana. A certain Mehlokazulu did admit the possibility of desecration by the zulu's "there was a man" he said, "whose head was cut off at the entrance to the camp where the white people had held out, and formed back to back [curiously one of the carbineers had later heard that one of his regiment who had died on the spot had been decapitated; it was Edward Tarboton whose brother had returned with Trooper Barker in a vain attempt to find him.] The scene after the battle resembled a slaughterhouse; The green grass was red with running blood and the veld was slippery, for it was covered with the brains and entrails of the slain. The bodies of black and white were lying mixed up together with the carcases of horses, oxen and mules.
Months later the British returned to the battlefield to idetify and clear up the remains; in a clump of dead were troopers Borrain, Dickinson, Tarboton, Lumley, Davis and R Jackson, Swift, Moodie and F Jackson were lying further towards the Nek. Earlier reports had suggested that Tarboton had been decapitated, but if he was the burial party did not mention it, perhaps hard to tell. Captain Bradstreet lay nearby. All were "struck with the noble way in which they stuck to their officers"
We visited Isandwana on its 100th anniversary in January 1979. Near the "Nek" we found a person with a camera in which was mounted a negative of a picture taken at the time of Colonel Drury-Lowe's return to the Battlefield, The owner of this camera or viewing device had found the exact position the photographer had stood the day it was taken and set up his viewer which we were able to look through. Being a negative it gave a superimposed view of the Battle site showing boulders and other features which looked exactly as they did on that day the picture was taken. Most interesting however it showed a real life view of the remains of wagons and all the residue left over after the battle. It was most impressive.
This information was taken from "Natal Witness dated 27.12.1975".

William Tarboton,

" In the cemetery at Byrne there lie buried the earthly remains of William Tarboton who came to Natal with his father in the "Henrietta" in 1850. A farmer at heart, his name was inseparably connected with the course of the Zulu War, through which he served as a member of the Natal Carbineers. He was one of the few (and one of the last) who escaped from the cauldron of Isandlwana to tell of the terrible loss suffered by British arms, in which action his brother, Edward, died.

After Isandlwana William Tarboton took part in many of the later engagements of the war, he being very friendly with Captain Shepstone. From 1880 to 1888 he followed the peaceful vocation of farmer at Byrne until his death in the latter years. He was then still a young man of just 40 years."


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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 5:25 pm

Chard

What point are you trying to make by quoting the above extracts from modern works?

My only comment would be look at what Higginson (and Barker for that matter)actually wrote rather than what someone else said he/they wrote. Rely on the primary source(s).
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 6:30 pm

Still it does show, Higginson's true colours. He gives account that puts in a good light with regards to assisting the two officers, but says nothing about his escape. That's what needs to be take into consideration when it come to believing his part with M & C again different accounts by the same person. You need a good memory if you want to lie!
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Deep breath that man!
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 10:07 pm

impi wrote:
John wrote:
Come on Julian. Next you be saying Higginson assisted in the endeavours to save the Queens Colours.

John I think your find, Higginson's mother did receive a letter from the Military Secretary acknowledging just that.

Hi Impi. Yes I'm am aware of that. He used the mother excuse of her having a letter that suggests he was involved in the assisting of the saving of the colours, while applying for a job. However he himself never had the letter, and I would lay odds on that no one will find the letter in question.
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyTue Apr 29, 2014 10:30 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
John

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I haven't mentioned colours.  It's easy meat to discredit people and dismiss remarks after 150 years; it's not so easy to find creditable reliable testimony about an obscure event or to sort wheat from chaff in testimony where someone's personal behaviour may have been found wanting.   Covering his own unfortunate selfish act regarding Barker does not make Higginson an out-and-out liar.  Neither does it make his whole testimony suspect.  I'm not apologizing for Higginson, I'm not defending him; I'm after the truth.  I'm merely stating that Higginson was the only witness to M&C's deaths, he left a report, and would have no reason to lie over small details.  (If he wanted to lie, he could say he didn't see M&C at all.)  With other Europeans around them Higginson could not be sure that there weren't other witnesses to this same event.  (Williams for example was just behind M&C at the river.)

Re Higginson's report, I would have thought you had already read it before commenting on it but, since you haven't, it says:
"Coghill called out "Here they come."  I turned and saw only two men close to us, and turning to Melville [sic] said "For God's sake fire, you both have revolvers": they did so and I saw both Zulus drop; Melville then said "I am done up, I can go no further."  Coghill said the same.  I ran on, passed them, and got to the top of a hill, where a few Basutos on horseback had stopped, seeing me coming...I could see nothing of the two fellows behind me, so I guessed they had been overtaken."
The punctuation is Higginson's.  

It was case of every man for himself.  No-one blamed Brickhill for ignoring Gamble's plea "For God's sake, give me a lift"; no-one blamed Williams for ignoring Gamble either.  No-one blamed Bickley for not helping Richardson.  Selflessness was admirable where it happened but it wasn't uniform.  'Cast not the mote...' as my old dad used to say.

sas1

Coghill's letters home state that he rode up to the camp with his (mounted) servant leading a spare horse.  As JY says, officers had a spare horse.  

Williams saw Coghill's horse assegaied in the thigh soon after crossing the saddle.  Coghill must have picked up another because Williams saw M&C later.

Julian I'm not putting words in your mouth ( God forbid) so get back in your pram.

Your quest for the truth will prove fruitless on this occasion. Based on Highinson was the only witness to the what really happen on the banks of the river. My argument is based on others comments.

1) I doubt the revolvers in 1879 would have Functioned after being in water?
2) would they have ridden along the trail mixing up with Zulus who were intent on killing them, and never used there revolvers ?
3) We know the Eden men were giving covering fire, perhaps it was them who killed the many Zulus found near M & C

This is the account I have. Lieut. Walter Higginson, of 1/3rd Natal Native Contingent.

 "Coghill, who had got his horse over alright came riding back down the bank to help Melvill, and as he put his mount in close to us, some Zulus who were about twenty-five yards distant on the other bank commenced firing at us in the water. Almost the first shot killed Coghill's horse, and on his getting clear we started for the Natal bank and managed to get out alright, but when we had covered about a hundred yards up the steep bank we noticed two Zulus following us. When they got within thirty' yards of us, Melvill and Coghill fired at them with their revolvers and killed them both. I myself was without arms of any kind, having lost my rifle in the river and did not possess a revolver. When we had gone a few yards further, Melvill said he could go no further and Coghill said the same. When they stopped I pushed on, and on reaching the top of the hill I found four Basutos in whose company I finally escaped by holding on to a horse's tail."

In this account no mention of him telling them both to shoot. A d no mention in yours, he was saved by hanging on to a horses tail.

You see there are many tails told by your man Higginson including the horses tail!  Rolling Eyes

Your account Higginson says "For God's sake fire, you both have revolvers shoot" did they forget they had revolvers ?

PS I'm looking for the other account, where Higginson states he found horses and was going back but saw the Zulus had done the deed on M & C.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 8:18 am

Hi John
Smith Dorrien also crossed the river swimming and then : '....I saw that a lot of Zulus had crossed higher up and were running to cut me of. This drove me off to my left but twenty of them still pursued me for about three miles and I managed to keep them of with my revolver.'
The Edenvale men were firing across the river from the flats, M and C were much much higher up the slope, at least 500 meters from that position.
In Higginsons statement of the 18th Feb 1879 WO 33/34, inclosure3 in No96 he makes no mention of looking for two horses, I have no idea where Adrian Greaves picked up that gem. possibly a later statement, I don't have it !
In reading that statement he makes some telling comments, such as they were the last three white men to get across. Smith Dorrien was ahead of him, they met up and walked together for a few miles. It was at that point he met up with Barker.
Interesting thing about Smith Dorriens narrative is that he makes no mention of this meeting. But does make mention of where M and C were found and quite tellingly says the following: ' but I only saw one European, a Colonial and Acting Commissariat Officer named Hammer.'
That seems to contradict Higginson, but SD wrote his Memories of Forty Eight Years Service long afterwards.
Its difficult to see why Higginson, writing so close to the time and location, would deliberately lie in an official statement when the risk of being found out would be so great. His 'lies' about the meeting with Barker and taking his horse were actually lies by omission, in other words he didn't lie just didn't tell the whole story. Hammer is guilty of doing the same thing in not returning for SD, and omitting that from his statement.
I don't know where your quotation of Higginsons statement comes from but there are a number of errors in it.

Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 8:38 am

John wrote:
impi wrote:
John wrote:
Come on Julian. Next you be saying Higginson assisted in the endeavours to save the Queens Colours.

John I think your find, Higginson's mother did receive a letter from the Military Secretary acknowledging just that.

Hi Impi. Yes I'm am aware of that. He used the mother excuse of her having a letter that suggests he was involved in the assisting of the saving of the colours, while applying for a job. However he himself never had the letter, and I would lay odds on that no one will find the letter in question.

I think your right. It was he who said she had received the Letter.
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 8:44 am

springbok9 wrote:
Hi John
Smith Dorrien also crossed the river swimming and then : '....I saw that a lot of Zulus had crossed higher up and were running to cut me of. This drove me off to my left but twenty of them still pursued me for about three miles and I managed to keep them of with my revolver.'
The Edenvale men were firing across the river from the flats, M and C were much much higher up the slope, at least 500 meters from that position.
In Higginsons statement of the 18th Feb 1879 WO 33/34, inclosure3 in No96 he makes no mention of looking for two horses, I have no idea where Adrian Greaves picked up that gem. possibly a later statement, I don't have it !
In reading that statement he makes some telling comments, such as they were the last three white men to get across. Smith Dorrien was ahead of him, they met up  and walked together for a few miles. It was at that point he met up with Barker.
Interesting thing about Smith Dorriens narrative is that he makes no mention of this meeting. But does make mention of where M and C were found and quite tellingly says the following: ' but I only saw one European, a Colonial and Acting Commissariat Officer named Hammer.'
That seems to contradict Higginson, but SD wrote his Memories of Forty Eight Years Service long afterwards.
Its difficult to see why Higginson, writing so close to the time and location, would deliberately lie in an official statement when the risk of being found out would be so great. His 'lies' about the meeting with Barker and taking his horse were actually lies by omission, in other words he didn't lie just didn't tell the whole story. Hammer is guilty of doing the same thing in not returning for SD, and omitting that from his statement.
I don't know where your quotation of Higginsons statement comes from but there are a number of errors in it.
Cheers

But that could be said just about most of the statements made by those that escaped.
I have read another account where "Higginson" states M & C told him to save himself.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 9:19 am

impi
Cant fault that.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 9:39 am

John
Higginson left five accounts and one anecdote; others mention him twice in their accounts.  It's necessary to read them ALL to get a full picture:

(A) A written Report of 18th February 1879 is held in the National Archives.
(B) A Report to Lord Chelmsford dated 17th February 1879.
(C) A letter by him was also published in the Natal Mercury, 16th May 1879.
(D) A second-hand account in Hamilton-Browne.
(E) A second-hand account in Maxwell.
(F) An anecdote relating to the the death of Lieut. MacDowel R.E. (kia).
He is mentioned in the accounts of Trooper Barker and Sergt.-Maj. Williams.

Everything else written about Higginson's escape in modern works is supposition or invention.

I have already shown that others used revolvers successfully after their soaking in the river.
Undoubtedly both M&C could have used their revolvers on the trail up to the river if they needed to though M would have found that physically difficult whilst holding the colours.
There is no evidence that the presence of the Edendale men corresponds to the time of M&C's arrival at Fugitives' Drift.

As you will see when you've read all the accounts, it is not the case that Higginson lied.  As others have said, he simply left things out to cover himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 10:21 am

JW wrote:
he simply left things out to cover himself.
 Suspect Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 10:23 am

Maybe this will explain the context of Fugitives Drift itself.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 10:27 am

Dave
Love it.
It says it all really, he lied by omission, simple as that. As impi said not an uncommon occurrence amongst the survivors, every one tried to one degree or another to cover there own backsides.
Take a careful look at who got to the drift first and who last.
Says a lot.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 10:34 am

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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 10:41 am

springbok
Couldn't agree more. It's why I will not single out or denigrate any individual for blame or discredit any known survivor's account. It's a bit like being in a court case jury with 90% of the witnesses missing.
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 11:23 am

A Lieut. Walter Higginson, of 1/3rd Natal Native Contingent, has left an account of what followed. He had also been precipitated into the flood-waters, and states that as Melvill drifted down towards him he called out to him to catch hold of the colour-pike, which he -- Higginson -- did, but the force of the current dragged him off his feet and off the rock to which he tenuously clung, but fortunately into calmer water. To continue in his own words, "Coghill, who had got his horse over alright came riding back down the bank to help Melvill, and as he put his mount in close to us, some Zulus who were about twenty-five yards distant on the other bank commenced firing at us in the water. Almost the first shot killed Coghill's horse, and on his getting clear we started for the Natal bank and managed to get out alright, but when we had covered about a hundred yards up the steep bank we noticed two Zulus following us. When they got within thirty' yards of us, Melvill and Coghill fired at them with their revolvers and killed them both. I myself was without arms of any kind, having lost my rifle in the river and did not possess a revolver. When we had gone a few yards further, Melvill said he could go no further and Coghill said the same. When they stopped I pushed on, and on reaching the top of the hill I found four Basutos in whose company I finally escaped by holding on to a horse's tail."

Capt. Penn Symons account continued the story; "Worn out and faint with their exertions, Lieuts. Melyill arid Coghill were unable to climb the last 30 yards to comparative safety and were caught up and killed by their inexorable pursuers. Could they but have negotiated this last short distance, they might well have been able to get away with the Basutos as the latter had secured three stray ponies."

What was Capt. Penn Symons part in this, did he interview "Higginson" to retrieve the high-light text.
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 11:30 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
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from link above
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PostSubject: Re: Source for faulty revolver   Source for faulty revolver - Page 1 EmptyWed Apr 30, 2014 11:33 am

Last one for now!!! Some more on Higginson and after the event!!!

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