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 Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Fri May 16, 2014 8:08 pm

This is worth a look. Have they been seen before?

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Steve
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Fri May 16, 2014 8:22 pm

Here are some more.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Fri May 16, 2014 9:28 pm

Rusteze, Outstanding mate. !!!!!!!!! agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 7:42 am

rusteze

Thank you for sharing these links. The depictions of the battle are outstanding.

Regards
Brett
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 11:28 am

Great stuff Steve, well done mate.

 Salute 
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 11:33 am

I think what is interesting is that of all the incredibly rich Royal archives, that must go back a thousand years, the BBC chooses Rorke's Drift as the first item to display. That says an awful lot about where this small battle sits in the British psyche.

Long may it be so.

Steve
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 12:20 pm

rusteze wrote:
This is worth a look. Have they been seen before?

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Steve

The diagram deplicts the Zulu located near the caves on the hill. No2 on the map. Does anyone know the distance from the caves to the defence compound of the British.
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PostSubject: Distance from Okarberg terrace to RD    Sat May 17, 2014 1:43 pm

Hi Chards1879,
In reply to your question. 269m from the nearest  sandstone caves (position #2 on the schematic posted) on the Oskarberg facing RD, to the roof of the store.
Now, during the battle it is recorded that  Zulu sniper/s on the terraces made a number of hits on the backwall of the compound. This strongly suggest that someone up there had an MH, maybe a number of them. This is very feasible as it is known that the RD attackers had attacked some of the survivors  fleeing Isandlwana  and taking their weapons, before moving on to RD.
Hits at that distance were just not too easy with the antiquated powder and  ball weapons  known to be in the hands of the Zulus before 22/01/79. So, it is very likely that the MH's that were heard there, were used there by the enemy.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Sun May 18, 2014 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 3:56 pm

Would an old musket have had the same effect at that distance ?
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barry

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PostSubject: MH fire from the Oskarberg   Sat May 17, 2014 4:21 pm

Hi Impi,
Well nigh impossible with aimed fire from ball and powder weapons, chance hits were a very small possibility because of the inherent inaccuracy over greater distances of those weapons.
However,  the annals record that the defenders were  particularly wary of one or two points of fire eminating from caves on the Oskarberg and whoever was there was being successful as it drew the attention and respect of those defenders on the  parapets.
Another factor was that there were some Zulus with rifles closer than the terraces, lurking in the darkness, also having a go too.

regards

barry


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John

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Sat May 17, 2014 9:47 pm

I doub't any of the British bodies that were killed by gunshot were examined. Perhaps they were hit by MH bullets?

Do we know who sketch the drawing of RD in the first link?
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Mon May 19, 2014 3:20 pm

John wrote:
I doub't any of the British bodies that were killed by gunshot were examined. Perhaps they were hit by MH bullets?

Do we know who sketch the drawing of RD in the first link?

What was Glyn's first name!
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90th

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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorkes Drift    Tue May 20, 2014 2:54 am

Hi Barry
As has been posted previously none of the wounds ( to my knowledge also the KIA'S ) that were mentioned in Dugald Brown's report
mentions any of the gunshot wounds being caused by a MH bullet .
Cheers 90th  Salute 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 2:33 pm

Your right Gary, I cannot recall any wounds or KIA's at RD being caused by MH rounds, however, as Barry says, there might have been some MH rifles used by the zulu's at RD, these would have been taken from the men trying to escape iSandlwana, but where did the ammo for them come from? there couldn't have been many rounds left in the mens pouches if they had used most of it at iSandlwana, just a thought.

O.H. His first name was Richard.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 2:47 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Barry
As has been posted previously none of the wounds ( to my knowledge also the KIA'S ) that were mentioned in Dugald Brown's report
mentions any of the gunshot wounds being caused by a MH bullet .
Cheers 90th  Salute 

I think John has a point. Were the dead who died from gunshot wounds examined before burial ?


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PostSubject: Wounds sustained at RD   Tue May 20, 2014 3:08 pm

Hi All,
I too am sceptical about the completeness and integrity any medical reports produced that day at RD ,as :
1) all the dead were buried on the morning or 23/01 leaving little time for any proper forensics to be done
2) was the MO specifically asked to look for MH wounds?
3) were the troopers killed and immediately butchered  by the enemy be in any any condition for proper forensic examination?.
... the answer to the last two imo is no.
So, some very qualified defenders reported hearing the unmistable sound of the MH in action, and the quality of  some the shooting  from the distant caves supports the hypothesis that MH 's were probably used there by the Zulu's. I have in the meantime checked on  Tpr Lugg's writtings but he was silent on this matter.
It has been recorded elsewhere that 130 firearms were collected from the dead attackers on the morining of 23/01, but no mention is made of the types. This number then begs  the next  question ; ie if 130 arms were collected from 375 dead, how many,  in total, were in the hands of the attackers ?.

regards,

barry

PS : for what it is worth I note that one of the artists  impressions of the RD attack, posted recently on the forum,  show Zulus with MH's in their hands.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 5:07 pm

yes Richard Thomas.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 5:08 pm

Some very good points there Barry!
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 9:06 pm

Beckett, William. Private. 25B/135, died of wounds 23 January 1879 WOUNDED WITH ASSEGAIS


Horrigan, William. Private. 1-24/1861, killed in action 22 January 1879

Jenkins, James. Private. 25B/841, killed in action 22 January 1879    HOSPITAL

Nicholas, Edward. Private. 25B/625, killed in action 22 January 1879

Adams, Robert. Private. 25B/987 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879

Chick, James. Private. 25B/1335 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879

Cole, Thomas. Private. 25B/801 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 SHOT

Fagan, John. Private. 25B/969 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879

Hayden, Garret. Private. 2-24/1769 D Company, killed in action 22 January 1879

Maxfield, Robert. Sergeant. 25B/623 G Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 HOSPITAL

Scanlon, John. Private. 25B/1051 A Company, killed in action 22 January 1879

Williams, Joseph. Private. 25B/1398 B Company, killed in action 22 January 1879 DRAGGED OUT AND KILLED.

Byrne, Louis Alexander. Acting Storekeeper, (civilian attachment), killed in action 22 January 1879 SHOT

A native of Mkungo's tribe, killed in action 22 January 1879 HOSPITAL

Anderson, Michael. Corporal. , killed whilst deserting 22 January 1879 SHOT

Hunter, Sydney H. Trooper., killed in action 22 January 1879  ASSEGAIED

Can anyone added to the way death occurred?


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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorkes Drift    Tue May 20, 2014 9:30 pm

Hi Barry
Hope you are well ? , In reply to your latest post regarding your last to points , I'm sure if any of the troops had been hit by a MH round the MO's would have noticed it , when you compare wounds from musket balls to MH's I think I'd know the difference .
None of the KIA's who were shot were from memory butchered as you stated , so I think points 2 & 3 dont have any real substance . I'm not discounting the fact that some Marini's may've been involved at RD , but, if they were there in largish numbers , there in my opinion would've been more evidence , also no mention is made of any being picked up after the battle , which doesnt mean much , as those who possibly did posses one were no doubt firing down from the caves , and were probably not killed . Brown mentions in his book several of the troops wounds , he specifically mentions Musket balls and the like , no mention of those that were wounded having been done so by MH rounds , Brown if you have his book is fastidious in what he writes , so I'm positive he'd mention the fact of troops being wounded by a MH round if in fact they had been so.
Cheers 90th  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 9:43 pm

I not sure they would have examined dead bodies? We know that its probable the Zulu's had picked up MH Rifles on the trail. Martin mentioned the lack of ammunition which is true, but they may have found enough to cause some damage, before falling back on their Muskets.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 10:44 pm

I can remember seeing some pictures and/or drawings of a selection of some of the types of the wounds inflicted by rounds from an MH. The damage caused to the human body by these rounds was shocking, they were terrible wounds, so I think that if any of the men defending RD had been hit by a round from an MH, either the surgeon or the medical staff would have noticed the grotesque damage done to the poor bloke on the receiving end of it. I think that the pictures I am speaking of could have been posted on the forum some time back, but don't take my word for it, I could well have seen them in a book at some time. But like I say, there would have been a massive difference between a musket ball and an MH round and the medical staff would have had no problem identifying which was which.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 10:53 pm

Surgical experiences in the Zulu and Transvaal wars.

The type of bullet that inflicted the wounds is not mentioned, in these cases!

"Private F. H., of the 2nd 24th regiment, was hit,
during the defence of Rorke's Drift, in the right shoulder. The bullet
entered near the base of the scapula, having been fired from the
hills opposite to which he was fighting. The bullet made its exit over
the bicipital groove in the humerus. There was great swelling of the
whole shoulder when seen by me on the 26th of January 1879, and
ecchymosis. The tract of the wound was sloughing. Poultices and
cold water sufficed to allay this, and the case did well.”

Corporal C. S., of the 1st battalion 2nd Co. Natal Native
Contingent, was wounded at Rorke's Drift. The bullet hit the back of
the head at the posterior margin of the left sternomastoid at its
origin, and took a course towards the middle of the scapular base,
where the bullet lodged subcutaneously, from which position it had
been removed when I took charge of him on the 26th January. Here
also the whole shoulder was greatly swollen and painful, requiring
poultices. This case, after the usual slough came away, got well.”

Corporal W. A., of the 2nd 24th regiment, was
hit, at Rorke's Drift, in the right shoulder. The bullet entered near the
insertion of the deltoid muscle to the humerus, and made its exit at
the upper and inner angle of the scapula. The bullet appears to have
passed under the scapula, no bone or joint being touched. This
wound sloughed and then very rapidly healed up.”

Acting Assistant-Commissary D. was hit in the right
shoulder at Rorke's Drift when busily engaged forming the "laager,"
which he had originally commenced, and to which was due the safety
of the place. The bullet entered about half an inch above the middle
of the clavicle, and made its escape posteriorly at the lowest border
of the trapezius muscle. The course taken was curious, regularly
running round the shoulder and down the back, escaping all the
important structures. The wounds, like all those received at Rorke's
Drift, were wide and open and sloughing when seen by me on the
26th January. After the slough came away the usual tenax was
applied. The whole of the field medical equipment having been
captured by the enemy at Isandhlwana, I had no antiseptic to use. I
thought of quinine, which I knew was a wonderful preserver of animal
tissues, and used a solution of that, experimenting in this case. It
seemed to answer, as the wounds got well after being injected
several times with it. My subsequent experience, however, is that the
wound would have done as well without it.”
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 11:05 pm

barry wrote:
Hi Impi,
Well nigh impossible with aimed fire from ball and powder weapons, chance hits were a very small possibility because of the inherent inaccuracy over greater distances of those weapons.
However,  the annals record that the defenders were  particularly wary of one or two points of fire eminating  from caves on the Oskarberg and whoever was there was being successful as it drew the attention and respect of those defenders  on the  parapets.
Another factor was that there were  some Zulus with rifles closer than the terraces, lurking in the darkness, also having a go too.

regards

barry

Just out of interest!

"
British Land Pattern Musket
a.k.a. Brown Bess

A Short Land Pattern Musket
Type Musket
Place of origin Kingdom of Great Britain
Service history
In service British Army 1722–1838
Used by British Empire, Various Native American tribes, USA, Sweden, Mexico, Empire of Brazil, Zulu warriors
Wars Indian Wars, Dummer's War, War of the Austrian Succession, Jacobite rising of 1745, Carnatic Wars, Seven Years' War, American Revolutionary War, British Colonisation of Australia, Napoleonic Wars, War of 1812, Texas Revolution (limited), Paraguayan War, Anglo-Zulu War
Production history
Designed 1722
Produced 1722–1860s (all variants)
Variants Long Land Pattern, Short Land Pattern, Sea Service Pattern, India Pattern, New Land Pattern, New Light Infantry Land Pattern Cavalry Carbine
Specifications
Weight 10.5 pounds (4.8 kg)
Length 58.5 inches (149 cm)
Barrel length 42 inches (110 cm) - 46 inches (120 cm)
Cartridge 0.71 inches (18 mm) musket ball, undersized to reduce the effects of powder fouling.
Action Flintlock
Rate of fire User dependent; usually 3 to 4 rounds a minute
Muzzle velocity Variable
Effective firing range Variable (50–100 yards)
Feed system Muzzle-loaded
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 11:29 pm

Extract from Chards report to QV.

"The main body of the enemy were close behind the first force which appeared, and had lined the ledge of rocks and caves in the Oscarberg overlooking us, and about three or four hundred yards to our south, from where they kept up a constant fire"

Not an effective range for a Musket. MH Rifle yes!

And another.

"Our fire at the time of these rushes of the Zulus was very rapid. Mr. Dalton dropping a man each time he fired his rifle, while Bromhead and myself used our revolvers. The fire from the rocks and caves on the hill behind us was kept up all this time and took us completely in reverse, and although very badly directed, many shots came among us and caused us some loss, and at about 6.00 p.m. the enemy extending their attack further to their left, I feared seriously would get it over our wall behind the biscuit boxes."



We know that the Zulus had been using muskets for many years, and we're no doubt quite accomplished with the use of them. We have heard the British referring to Zulu Snipers. We also know from Neil, that it was unlikely the Zulus would have had the knowledge to adjust the sights on the MH rifle. Which leads Chard to make the statement above. "Although directed very badly many shots came among us"

Last extract.

"As darkness came on we were completely surrounded. The Zulus wrecking the camp of the Company 24th and my wagon which had been left outside, in spite of the efforts of my batman, Driver Robson (the only man of the Royal Engineers with us), who had directed his particular attention to keeping the Zulus off this wagon in which we were, as he described it, "Our things".

The camp of the 24th would there had ammunition there ? Do we know for sure there wasn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Tue May 20, 2014 11:57 pm

The camp of the 24th would there had ammunition there ? Do we know for sure there wasn't.good point impi.
Rorkes Drift was in effect a storage depot, thats why there was so much ammo there!
can you imagine if they had only 70 rounds apiece..how long would they have held out.minutes?.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 12:17 am

Les I think he is talking about the 24th camp just outside the mission station. No 4 on the sketch of RD. The one Major Chard is referring to.

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 12:44 am

thanks LH i did misunderstand! although i imagine
not a lot would have been left there to aid the
enemy, surely all that could be was brought in
to the laager, notable exception..the water cart!.
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 1:21 am

What excellent targets the British must have been looking down on them from the hill. Like shooting fish in a bucket!
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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 5:53 am

Fairly certain there wouldnt have been any ammunition left in the camp of the 24th , as all the 24th , except for B co were in zululand along with their ammunition , the remainder as we know was inside the defensive perimeter at RD . Orders were given from memory for boxes to be opened before the attack was under way . I see no reason why any rounds would be left in the camp area of the 24th , also the Tents in that area were struck before the battle and anything seen as remotely helpful in the camp's defence was most certainly taken into the defensive perimeter .
90th
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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift    Wed May 21, 2014 6:02 am

John
I dont profess to be a Doctor , but reading the damage inflicted on those unfortunate enough to have been hit at RD , there is NO mention in my mind of any serious damage done to any part of the individual . Which makes me think if they were hit by MH rounds there would be far more bone and tissue damage , you are aware that the MH left horrendous wounds ? , these to me read of bullets nearly at the end of their trajectory , it's mentioned in a couple of the reports that no major damage had been done , or words to that effect . Martin is correct , if they were hit by MH rounds I'm sure it'd be mentioned , its not a case of post mortems but any surgeon worth his salt would be able to tell the difference between Musket Ball etc and MH rounds .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 7:35 am

John wrote:
Surgical experiences in the Zulu and Transvaal wars.  

The type of bullet that inflicted the wounds is not mentioned, in these cases!

"Private F. H., of the 2nd 24th regiment, was hit,
during the defence of Rorke's Drift, in the right shoulder. The bullet
entered near the base of the scapula, having been fired from the
hills opposite to which he was fighting. The bullet made its exit over
the bicipital groove in the humerus. There was great swelling of the
whole shoulder when seen by me on the 26th of January 1879, and
ecchymosis. The tract of the wound was sloughing. Poultices and
cold water sufficed to allay this, and the case did well.”

Corporal C. S., of the 1st battalion 2nd Co. Natal Native
Contingent, was wounded at Rorke's Drift. The bullet hit the back of
the head at the posterior margin of the left sternomastoid at its
origin, and took a course towards the middle of the scapular base,
where the bullet lodged subcutaneously, from which position it had
been removed when I took charge of him on the 26th January. Here
also the whole shoulder was greatly swollen and painful, requiring
poultices. This case, after the usual slough came away, got well.”

Corporal W. A., of the 2nd 24th regiment, was
hit, at Rorke's Drift, in the right shoulder. The bullet entered near the
insertion of the deltoid muscle to the humerus, and made its exit at
the upper and inner angle of the scapula. The bullet appears to have
passed under the scapula, no bone or joint being touched. This
wound sloughed and then very rapidly healed up.”

Acting Assistant-Commissary D. was hit in the right
shoulder at Rorke's Drift when busily engaged forming the "laager,"
which he had originally commenced, and to which was due the safety
of the place. The bullet entered about half an inch above the middle
of the clavicle, and made its escape posteriorly at the lowest border
of the trapezius muscle. The course taken was curious, regularly
running round the shoulder and down the back, escaping all the
important structures. The wounds, like all those received at Rorke's
Drift, were wide and open and sloughing when seen by me on the
26th January. After the slough came away the usual tenax was
applied. The whole of the field medical equipment having been
captured by the enemy at Isandhlwana, I had no antiseptic to use. I
thought of quinine, which I knew was a wonderful preserver of animal
tissues, and used a solution of that, experimenting in this case. It
seemed to answer, as the wounds got well after being injected
several times with it. My subsequent experience, however, is that the
wound would have done as well without it.”

90th you have frst hand accounts above, yet you say Martin is correct  Shocked 

There were hundreds of MH rifles available during those two days, so much so, you could pick them of the ground. And do you really believe that everyone who escaped from Isandlwana only did so when they had used up all of their ammuntion.

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90th

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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift    Wed May 21, 2014 8:36 am

Mr Greaves .
Possibly unlike yourself I have Dugald Blair Brown's book ( Surgical Experiences In The Zulu And Transvaal Wars , 1879 And 1881 ) and have read it , there is no mention of the wounded at RD being hit by MH rounds , I'm merely attempting to say that I'm certain anyone in the Medical Profession ,  in the Army , at that time , would know a MH wound compared to one caused by a Musket ball ! , you need to read my post slowly and methodically to understand what I'm attempting to say ! . If ,  for example you read case number 2  ,  Corp. S.C  which is Scammel from memory , Brown states '' The Bullet lodged Subcutaneously , from which position it had been removed '' This is the medical term for under the skin if I'm not mistaken ,  if this was a MH wound the bullet would've gone clean through Mr Scammel from that distance dont you agree ? , as the distance we are talking is only around 400 yds or so ? . In the book , which wasnt part of John's post , there is the entry regarding Corp John Jeremiah Lyons page 25 if you wish to read it , where Brown states he removed a  '' round Bullet '' from Lyons much later . Obviously not a MH round , so if they found one in a patient I'm quite positive they'd say so ! , dont you agree ? . Also Mr Greaves if you know anything about the Rorke's drift battle you'd be well aware that there werent  '' hundreds '' of MH rifles at or around RD , as the zulu's who attacked RD had nothing to do with Isandlwana ( they were the Reserve force not used in the battle , thats why they went to RD in the first place ! ) , therefore having very little chance of securing a MH , as I've said previously there may've been the odd one here and there , possibly from Fugitives , certainly none taken from Isandlwana proper . I have no idea what you are inferring in your last line  scratch   scratch . But it has no bearing on the topic as far as I'm aware .
Cheers 90th

PS , I'm thinking you were attempting a wind up , you got me going ! .
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 10:17 am

Looking at those distances quoted for the 'Brown Bess' of 60 to 100 yards would invite the comment that what guns then were used at Isandlwana? We know for instance that men in the camps were shot while the Zulu were still pinned down, a distance travelled for those bullets of some 600 to 700 yards, and with enough velocity to kill. Bloomfields death springs to mind, probably he was killed by a stray bullet but by a bullet with enough force to do so from a considerable distance. Apart from an MH what other weapon would do that, Enfields maybe?
At Rorkes Drift are we not getting to focused on a 'one suits all scenario?' Ergo because all the 'known bullet wounds were caused by round ball therefore that's the only rifle used? Surely there are valid and logical reasons for including other weapons. Such as; we do know that the cook house and toilets at the rear of the buildings where occupied and that the Zulus used them as cover, is it not possible there fore that the bullet wounds accounted for came from that direction? After all its only a few yards away.

The Zulu impi was commanded by Dabulmanzi, he lived at the cost and was therefore close to the main ingress of the gun runners coming in at St Lucia. He would no doubt have had first choice of any guns being 'imported'.

Again we have the statement of Mehlokazulu, Royal Engineers Journal of 2nd February 1880, in which he quite strongly states that "lots of us had got the same rifles as the soldiers used, having bought them in our own country, but some did not know how to use them and had to be shown how by those that did." He goes on to describe the training and the ammunition used up in that training.

I would express doubt that any field doctor in 1879 could tell what bullet caused a wound if that bullet went straight through the flesh and out the other side. If there was no trace of the bullet there could be no identification, and an MH fired from that distance would surely pass straight through a human body.

There is a display at RD of various bits and pieces found during excavations and building works, included in that display are MH bullets, not just the cases. Doesn't this indicate that MH bullets were fired at the defenders and not just by them.

Shell cases were found in the caves, indicating shots were fired from there. Or possibly a trooper dropped them?

CS Bourne says he heard the crack of an MH, a distinctive sound, this is countered by the argument that would he have been able to separate that sound during a battle ? Possibly during a lull the odd sniper decide to take a pot shot at the troops.

I suppose the points Im making are that:
The impi had access not only to the MH but also to ammunition.
They had people trained in the use of the rifle.
There is forensic evidence to show that there is a possibility of the MH being used.
There is testimony that the MH was used.

So probably the one size fits all explanation doesnt work here.
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90th

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PostSubject: Windsor Archive Rorke's drift    Wed May 21, 2014 10:49 am

Hi Springy .
Sorry mate I beg to differ on several points , CS Bourne was talking 50 years after the event , so I dont know how switched on he was at that time in his life , hell , I'm in my 50's and have trouble remembering last week ! . Many maintain CS Bourne said he heard the crack of the MH because he thought that the zulu who attacked RD had come from Isandlwana , therefore it made sense for him to have heard the retort . Hope that makes sense ? . I've always maintained that there were probably Martini's used there but not hundreds as mentioned by Mr Greaves who also stated they were lying around everywhere ! , no , cant have that from the force attacking RD , they werent involved in the slaughter at the end of Isandlwana to have picked up one of the hundreds on offer there . It's also well known there were many arms available to the zulu army , not just the round ball musket type , I find it very difficult to believe that the Martinis taken at Isandlwana came back to bite the British on a serious note any time on the 22/ 23rd Jan and later , dont forget that after Khambula Wood ordered the zulu firearms to be picked up from the field , from memory around 200 or so and also from memory only 7 or so were MH's , certainly less than a dozen MH's were found , this may've been due to others picking them up and taking them back with them , but I doubt I'd be worried about looking or bending down to secure one with the British troops firing hundreds of rounds per minute at me ! . I found and did post one of the surgical reports from the book where Brown states he removed a round ball from Corp Lyons , a couple of other reports also mention probing for the bullet , you would hardly be doing that if shot by a MH as it would go straight through you from that range . I also cant have that the Doctors of the time wouldnt know a MH wound from another wound , wouldnt that be like confusing the Flu with the common cold ! ? . The shell cases found in the caves could well have been fired from the zulus , I dont doubt it , but just not in enough numbers to do much damage , if they had plenty many more wouldve been hit , as you say Dabulamanzi was in command , I find it difficult to believe he'd let MH 's fall into the hands of those who had no clue how to use them !! . Possibly , just possibly the cases found on the hill , or the caves were rounds expended by troops hunting before or after the battle , one can never be completely sure. Not to sure the forensic evidence explains anything to be honest , as I said , to me its common sense if they did have many MH's the casualty list would be much , much bigger . There is testimony but how reliable was CS Bourne if you are using him , speaking 50 years later , it's all supposition , but if they the MH was used in large numbers the British would've paid much dearly ! . Hope your well , hope I havent made your blood boil ? . Very Happy 
cheers 90th
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PostSubject: MH's possibliy used at RD   Wed May 21, 2014 11:11 am

Hi Springbok9,
Pleased to see you back and joining a very interesting debate.
I concur 100% with all your points and would only say, further, that it would be extremely naïve of us to believe that no MH's were used there; and that any bullet fired at over 200 metres which had terminal velocity sufficient to penetrate a human body with a visible entry and egress point, WOULD NOT have been fired from a musket. Closer maybe.
We are not talking of 10's of MH's , but, rather, a small number.

regards

barry
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 12:32 pm

Greetings springy mate and welcome back, hope all went well for you buddy.

Well this debate is getting interesting.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there could not have been any MH rifles used by the Zulu's at RD, as it is possible that some could have been taken from those poor blokes trying to escape from iSandlwana by the reserve force of Zulu's heading to RD, but as I said earlier, there could not have been much ammo for these rifles as most of it would have been used either at iSandlwana or during the attempted escape from there, and as Gary rightly says, the small camp of B coy at RD would have been cleared of rifles and ammo before the Zulu's arrived.

Yes, an MH round would most likely pass clean through soft tissue and flesh, but anything hard like bone for instance would get shattered and splintered in the most grotesque way by a round from an MH. The images I saw showed the damage done by these rounds and it was horrendous, one image showed some poor Zulu chap with his head blown clean in two halves by an MH round, so I am sure that the medical staff would have known the difference between an MH wound and wounds caused by other rounds.

Col Sgt Bourne may well have heard the sounds of an MH coming from the hills, but the sounds could also have been echoes rebounding back from the hills, and in the height of battle Bourne may well have confused these sounds as coming from the hills rather than rebounding from them.

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 1:30 pm

90th
I'm in my 50's and have trouble remembering last week !
Im not going to comment its just to easy.  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy 
Barry
Yep I don't say that they had masses of MH or that the whole impi was equipt with them. I do say I believe they did have them and my reasoning is there, and it has nothing to do with guns being collected on the trail. As you so rightly pointed out, the trade in guns through LM and St lucia was prolific. Never mind the standard wages from the mines at the end of a contract was a rifle.

90th
You've had the opportunity to stand in the 'compound' and look back at the hill behind, theres no ways that a musket is going to reach that distance, therefore they were either closer ( the cook house and the barricades plus the front wall. ) or a different weapon.
Have a look through 'Lancet' there are a few articles on bullet wounds, then again we have the current Oscar Pistorious trial, the experts cannot tell the type of ammunition used to kill that young lady, they do know but only because they found the spent bullets, not through looking at the wound.
The fact that you mention the MH traveling straight through a body echoes what Ive posted, the round has gone, your left with a hole through flesh.
An MH at long distance or a musket at close range? Interesting comparison to make. Im pretty sure Barry or neil would have fun with that, PSI, Thrust, Impact ratios and all the other technical stuff.
Plus don't forget of course that the defenders were being fired on from the other side of their own barricades.
I agree with you that the reports of the wounded mention the findings of ball. What about the dead? Where are the reports of their wounds, as Barry so rightly pointed out there was no autopsy or report written.
We re generally in agreement that MH was used at RD plus we agree that they weren't pick ups from the trail.
The rest is in my points below

The impi had access not only to the MH but also to ammunition. Fact
They had people trained in the use of the rifle. Fact
There is forensic evidence to show that there is a possibility of the MH being used. Fact
There is testimony that the MH was used. Fact

And this statement is I believe the be all and end all.
So probably the one size fits all explanation doesnt work here.

Blood cant boil Im so full of drugs.  Wink 

Cheers
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PostSubject: Death of Tpr Anderson   Wed May 21, 2014 3:36 pm

Hi All,
Does anyone have any particulars of how Tpr Anderson died whilst trying to desert?

regards

barry

PS: What I think will be interesting here is the Surgeons report
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90th

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PostSubject: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift    Wed May 21, 2014 3:51 pm

Hi Barry.
As far as I can recall he was shot in the back ? .
Cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Tpr Anderson   Wed May 21, 2014 4:16 pm

Hi 90th,
Hope all is well with you too down under.
Correct, he was shot in the back, BUT, with what?. What did the surgeon say?
Remembering too, on a point of technical correctness, bullets are fired by rifled long guns and balls ( lead about marble size or a little smaller), are fired by muskets. All the reports I have read in this thread so far talk of bullets, ie MH projectiles.

regards

barry
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Windsor Archives Rorke's Drift   Wed May 21, 2014 6:58 pm

barry wrote:
Hi All,
Does anyone have any particulars of how Tpr Anderson died whilst trying to desert?

regards

barry

PS: What I think will be interesting here is the Surgeons report

I maybe wrong, but I think JW mentioned this on another thread. The situation was different to what we know. Along the lines he was suffering with some kind of fever. But like I said I could be wrong?
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