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 The defenders of Rorkes Drift

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:42 am

On the same basis that David Jenkins participation in the battle has been disputed and that as of today Ive not seen any official military acceptance of the following personel, would the forum agree that they should all be removed from the roll of defenders at Rorkes Drift. If not I would love to hear the reasons why not?


Milne, Frederick. Sergeant. 2260

1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot

Desmond, Patrick. Private. 25B/568
Jenkins, David. Private. 25B/295
Payton, Thomas. Private. 25B/372
Turner, Henry. Private. 25B/l04
Wilson, Edward. Sergeant. 25B/56

2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)

Ashton, James. Private. 2-24/913, B Company
Barry, Thomas. Private. 25B/1381, B Company
Bennett, William Private. 25B/918, B Company
Bessell, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l287, B Company
Bly, John. Private. 2-24/2427, B Company
Bromwich, Joseph. Private. 25B/1524, B Company
Buckley, Thomas. Private. 25B/1184, B Company
Burke, Thomas. Private. 25B/1220, B Company
Bushe, James. Private. 2-24/2350, B Company
Camp, William Henry. Private. 25B/1181, B Company
Chester, Thomas. Private. 25B/1241, B Company
Clayton, Thomas. Private. 25B/755, B Company
Cole, Robert. Private. 25B/1459, F Company
Collins, Thomas. Private.25B/1396, B Company
Connolly, John. Private. 25B/906, C Company
Connors, Anthony. Private. 2-24/2310, B Company
Connors, Timothy. Private. 2-24/1323, B Company
Cooper, William. Private. 2-24/2453, F Company
Davies, George. Private. 25B/470, B Company
Davis, William Henry. Private. 25B/1363, B Company
Daw, Thomas. Private. 25B/1178, B Company
Deane, Michael. Private. 25B/1357, B Company
Dick, James. Private. 2-24/1697, B Company
Dicks, William. Private. 2-24/1634, B Company
Driscoll, Thomas. Private. 25B/971, B Company
Dunbar, James. Private. 25B/1421, B Company
Edwards, George. Private. 25B/922, B Company, alias George Edward Orchard
Evans, Frederick. Private. 25B/953, H Company
French, George. Corporal. 2-24/582, B Company
Galgey, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/1713, D Company
Gallagher, Henry. Sergeant. 25B/81, B Company
Gee, Edward. Private. 2-24/2429, B Company
Hagan, James. Private. 25B/978, B Company
Halley, William. Lance-Corporal. 25B/l282, B Company
Harris, John. Private. 25B/1062, B Company
Hayes, Patrick. Drummer 2-24/2067, B Company
Jobbins, John. Private. 25B/1061, B Company
Jones, Evan. Private. 25B/1428, B Company, alias Patrick Cosgrove
Jones, John. Private. 25B/1179, B Company
Jones, John. Private. 25B/970, B Company
Judge, Peter. Private. 2-24/2437, B Company
Kears, Patrick. Private. 25B/972, B Company
Keefe, James. Drummer 2-24/2381, B Company
Key, John. Corporal. 2-24/2389, B Company
Kiley, Michael. Private. 25B/1386, B Company
Lewis, David. Private. 25B/963, B Company, alias James Owen
Lines, Henry. Private. 2-24/1528, B Company
Lloyd, David. Private. 25B/1409, B Company
Lockhart, Thomas. Private. 25B/1176, B Company
Lodge, Joshua. Private. 25B/1304, B Company
Lynch, Thomas Michael. Private. 25B/942, B Company
Lyons, John. Corporal. 25B/1112, B Company
Lyons. John. Private. 2-24/1441, A Company
Manley, John. Private. 2-24/1731, A Company
Marshall, James. Private. 25B/964, B Company
Martin, Henry. Private. 25B/756, B Company
Mason, Charles. Private. 25B/1284, B Company
Meehan, John. Drummer 2-24/2383, A Company
Minehan, Michael. Private. 2-24/1527, B Company
Moffatt, Thomas. Private. 25B/968, B Company
Morris, Augustus. Private. 25B/1342, B Company
Morris, Frederick. Private. 25B/525, B Company
Morrison, Thomas. Private. 25B/1371, B Company
Murphy, John. Private. 25B/662, B Company
Neville, William. Private. 25B/1279, B Company
Norris, Robert. Private. 25B/1257, B Company
Osborne, William. Private. 25B/1480, B Company
Parry, Samuel. Private. 25B/1399, B Company
Partridge, William. Private. 25B/1410, G Company
Pitt, Samuel. Private. 25B/1186, B Company
Robinson, Edward. Private. 25B/1286, B Company
Ruck, James. Private. 25B/1065, B Company
Savage, Edward. Private. 25B/1185, B Company
Saxty, Alfred. Corporal. 25B/849, B Company
Sears, Arthur. Private. 2-24/2404, A Company
Shearman, George. Private. 2-24/1618, B Company
Shergold, John. Private. 2-24/914, B Company
Smith, George. Sergeant. 2-24/1387, B Company
Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company
Stevens ,Thomas. Private. 25B/777, B Company
Tasker, William. Private. 2-24/1812, B Company
Taylor, Frederick. Private. 25B/973, B Company
Taylor, James. Lance-Sgt. 25B/82, E Company
Taylor, Thomas Edward. Private. 25B/889, B Company
Thomas, John. Private. 25B/1280, B Company, alias Peter Sawyer
Thompson, John. Private. 25B/1394, B Company
Tobin, Michael. Private. 25B/879, B Company
Tobin, Patrick. Private. 25B/641, B Company
Todd, William John. Private. 25B/1281, B Company
Tongue, Robert. Private. 25B/1315, B Company
Wall, John. Private. 25B/1497, B Company
Whetton, Alfred. Private. 2-24/977, B Company
Wilcox, William. Private. 25B/1187, B Company
Williams, John. Private. 25B/934, E Company
Windridge, Joseph. Sergeant. 2-24/735, B Company
Wood, Caleb. Private. 25B/1316, B Company

90th Light Infantry

Graham, James. Corporal. 1123, alias Daniel Sheehan

Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:00 am

If there names do not appear on any of the roll calls. Then yes take them off until evidence can be found to show they did take part. Evidence shoud be show on military documention. All those on Chard Roll is a definate must.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:03 am

Hi John
Why? Chards roll wasn't prepared by him? Bournes was from memory based on the so called Chards. Anyway those rolls weren't prepared by the regiment. So there is no official roll

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:56 am

Morning springbok  Very Happy Was it not really Cantwell's roll..
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:04 am

Morning all !

I see the subject staggers on, against all odds.

People really do have to think a little more about the consequences of only accepting military records as evidence.

On that basis, you would rule out the service of many thousands of soldiers in World War 1, for whom no military records exist. I don't think any of us would take that position would we?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:12 am

Shrouded in mystery Les. I personally believe the first roll was by Rev Smith, that was published in April 1879 in the Natal papers.
The Chard roll only appears in 1930 ish and yes is attributed to Cantwell, a civilian by the way. Bournes list was based on that as well.
The earliest one seems to still be the Rev Smith.
Bottom line is Les, none of those lists can be classified as Military and there fore in terms of the evidence demanded on the now closed Jenkins thread can not be acceptable as a military acceptance of those men at Rorkes Drift. Therefore again in terms of the evidence demanded the only men that can be deemed as accepted by the regiment are those buried at RD and those that were awarded medals. Most or possibly all the letters etc from RD will have to be discounted as unreliable.
This is not a facetious comment but a genuine concern as to what our forum members are proposing.

Cheers MAte
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:13 am

Sorry Steve we crossed, your quite right, hence the list I posted.
Cheers
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barry

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PostSubject: The official rolls   Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:53 pm

Hi Sprinbok9,
Thoroughly concur.
The preposterous suggestion would mean that a major part of the rich military history, much of in orginating privately  would be meaningless and wiped out. Where are we going!!?
This ridiculous idea  just gives a lie to the abysmally poor understanding of these things by the naysayers.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:02 pm

rusteze wrote:
Morning all !

I see the subject staggers on, against all odds.

People really do have to think a little more about the consequences of only accepting military records as evidence.

On that basis, you would rule out the service of many thousands of soldiers in World War 1, for whom no military records exist. I don't think any of us would take that position would we?

Steve

Steve it would be best to stick to the the period in History the forum is designed for. The question relates to the Anglo Zulu War 1879 and participants. Dragging WW1 into will confuse the issue further.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:11 pm

Impi

Now it's you missing the point.

Steve
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:02 pm

No, not really just trying to keep the discussion on topic!
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:16 pm

Impi

Are you really agreeing that all of the names on Springbock's list should not be accepted as defenders until military evidence comes to light? I can't believe thats what you think.

Steve
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:00 pm

Where does it say, I'm agreeing ?

I accept all the rolls and names on them, if the roll has been signed by a member of the Military regime.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:32 pm

None of the rolls were signed by a Military Regime.
So Im assuming you don't accept them ?

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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:35 pm

Impi,

Military regime?  Did I miss the coup?

The so-called John Chard roll isn't signed by him, so do we dismiss it?

Frank Bourne's roll does not bear his signature.  Worse still it bears a badge with King's crown which bears the legend - dare I say it - the South Wales Borderers.  Do we consign that to rubbish pile likewise.

Dunbar's roll is signed but only relates to those 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment, so it would not include any other defenders from any other units including the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.

Doesn't leave many to chose from does it?

John Y.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:37 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
1195 Robert Smythe served in C Company 2/24th. Also served with the 2nd battalion in Burma. Medal group is in the SWB Museum. Remember 2nd battalion was stationed at Rorke's Drift for some 6 weeks after the famous action.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:43 pm

John Young wrote:
Impi,

Military regime?  Did I miss the coup?

The so-called John Chard roll isn't signed by him, so do we dismiss it?

Frank Bourne's roll does not bear his signature.  Worse still it bears a badge with King's crown which bears the legend - dare I say it - the South Wales Borderers.  Do we consign that to rubbish pile likewise.

Dunbar's roll is signed but only relates to those 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment, so it would not include any other defenders from any other units including the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment.

Doesn't leave many to chose from does it?

John Y.

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:47 pm

LOL.

"Dare I say it - the swb".    Shocked   Love it, nice one JY.  agree 

Bourne's roll wasn't compiled untill years after the defence of RD, so by then the King was on the throne and (unfortunately) the regiment was now the swb.  Mad 

Nice bit of humour there John, cheered me up no end.  Salute 
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:48 pm

Ray,

As I stated above the so-called Chard roll is not signed by John Chard.

So there is no need to reproduce it for my benefit. As I am fully aware that is not his signature.

John Y.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:49 pm

So is the Chard and Bourne rolls in-correct? The image above certainly shows Chards name and to who the list was sent Glyn.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:52 pm

Ray,

Read what I have written.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:53 pm

Ray
The point I am making is that neither Robert Smyth nor any of the others on my list meet the criteria put forward on the other string.
It was mooted that Jenkins could not be 'admitted' until proof of a military nature was provided. I would say the same of all the men I have listed. Many of these men wrote letters and gave interviews for local newspapers, but that form of 'proof' has been regarded as not acceptable.
The extracts you have posted were not from a list compiled by Chard, the signature is not his.

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:58 pm

Ray
Chard produced a synopsis, a list of the numbers present wounded and killed but did not contain the names.
The list you have posted is speculated to have been produced by a civilian by the name of Cantwell for the 50th anniversary. It was based on a list produced by the Rev Smith, Bourns list was also based on Smiths list.
I will re iterate Johns comment, the signature is a forgery.

And I come back to my point there is no military proof of those men being there.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:00 pm

John Young wrote:
Ray,

As I stated above the so-called Chard roll is not signed by John Chard.

So there is no need to reproduce it for my benefit.  As I am fully aware that is not his signature.

John Y.

John you have a nasty habit of talking in riddles. "You say you are fully aware this not his signature"
So what we have to take your word for that, how about backing up what you say with the source for once.
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:44 pm

Springbok, who put the names on the original list, there must have been one. I believe dated the 3rd or 23rd Feb 1879.
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:57 pm

Ray it has never been established who the compiler of the 'Chard' roll was. So to-date we must assume it was Chard. Unless someone can post evidence to show otherwise. I'm more than happy to be corrected! And will thank whoever posts the evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:30 pm

Hiya impi, have you read this recently?.

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif?sort=6&o=0
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:32 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Ray
Chard produced a synopsis, a list of the numbers present wounded and killed but did not contain the names.
The list you have posted is speculated to have been produced by a civilian by the name of Cantwell for the 50th anniversary. It was based on a list produced by the Rev Smith, Bourns list was also  based on Smiths list.
I will re iterate Johns comment, the signature is a forgery.

And I come back to my point there is no military proof of those men being there.

Cheers

Ray Posted earlier
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:35 pm

Impi
If your going to insist that was compiled by Chard then you have your 'Military' proof for Jenkins.
For the full story and research however on the roll read Norman Holmes.

cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:54 pm

I'm not insisting nothing. All I have asked, is that someone provides evidence that shows it wasn't compiled by Chard. I'm guessing that we have some hand writing experts on the forum who are confident that's not Chards signature, so confident they are willing to say its forged.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Impi,

Not knowing what books you have - if any - on the subject of the Anglo-Zulu War, the so-called Chard roll has been disputed in at least three works that I am aware of.

I have John Chard's signature on a contemporary document, I can assure you that signature Ray has reproduced is NOT that of John Chard.

Chard's signature appears on a number of documents and has been reproduced online and in a number of books for example on page 271 of The Noble 24th; page 410 of Battlefield Heroes by Knollys & Elliott; page 108 of Zulu! by Ed Yorke; facing page 350 Atkinson's The South Wales Borderers - 24th Foot - 1689 to 1937; page 54 of The Silver Wreath; page 365 Rorke's Drift by Greaves etc. & etc.  

Hopefully you have at least one of those works and you can drawn your own conclusions, as I don't think there are any handwriting experts on the forum.

John Y.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:26 pm

You talk, but you don't show.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:41 pm

Impi,

If that last comment is directed to me.

What do I have to show? Please tell me?

I have written where you might find your answer, if you cannot be bothered to look for yourself why should I do it for you.

John Y.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:45 pm

You have a habit, of making statements, and quoting sources but fail to show. Not everyone has the books you mention. But most members are helpfull by posting the source, either in text format or photo.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:51 pm

Impi,

I have a name if you are addressing me, then use it.

At least I have the common courtesy to address you by the one you chose to hide behind.

If you don't have the books, might I suggest you go and join a library.

John Y.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:54 pm

Now now! Children!  Very Happy 

Chards signature. Not the same as the one on the roll call.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hope it helps!
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:55 pm

Read your last few posts back impi, there a tad
aggressive, nobody is duty bound to dance to
anybodys tune! any decent library has at least some
these works..one of which i posted above, all you
have to do is read it when you have the time!
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:57 pm

Suspect 
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:00 pm

Suspect  Why mate!  Salute 
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:04 pm

Littlehand,

But who is to say that the signature on http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/SouthAfrica-JohnChardVC.html is for real?

I for one would as it matches that in my own collection!

John Y.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:07 pm

http://www.royalwelsh.org.uk/downloads/zulu-catalogue/zulu-war-catalogue2.pdf

Why is the Roll call associated to Chard on the website above.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:21 pm

John Young wrote:
Littlehand,

But who is to say that the signature on http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/SouthAfrica-JohnChardVC.html is for real?

I for one would as it matches that in my own collection!

John Y.

Possibly. The one I found in an image only search is this!

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:27 am

Thanks LH.

JY. How can that be in your collect. It belongs to Edward Garcia. Suspect 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:00 am

The subject is getting miss directed. Its beyond doubt that the signatory to the roll was not Chard. That re poses the original question. The list of men posted do not have any military proof they were at Rorkes Drift, should they then be removed from the list of defenders. If not why not?


Last edited by springbok9 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:09 am

Impi
A couple of weeks back Steve I think posted a link to the Royal Archives showing the original drawings of RD by John Chard, they were signed by him. The signatures are so far apart the do not need an expert to spot the differences.

Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:23 am

Hi Springbok. I did look at those sketches yesterday to compair. But couldn't see any signature, just initials.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:43 am

I will scan one in and post it.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:53 am

I have a couple of other samples as well but they are all the same.
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Cheers
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:56 pm

Getting some what lost with this issue of the non-military connection with the various rolls. Who ever complied these roll, took part in the defence of RD. is that not a military connection.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:41 pm

Hi Ulundi
To you and I yes ! However a few forum members have suggested that unless there is a verifiable/written connection then no. The rolls all stem from one source, the rev Smith and was a civilian.
The 'Chard Roll' was believed to have been compiled from the Smith list around the 50th anniversary of the battle and intended as a souvenir hence the 'signature' of chard. Atkinson got hold of it and used it in his history of the regiment. Chard himself submitted a list to Glyn. But that listing did not have individuals, except for the killed, it was attached to his sketch of the battle.
The Dunbar roll is really the only one that wasn't based on Smiths roll, and that only had the 2/24th suvivors, not the killed and again contain a lot of errors.
Private J Waters and Bourne also published 'rolls' both of these were based on Smiths roll, we know this because Smiths roll had some errors, spelling numbers etc and these same errors occur in both the other rolls.
George Mabin, the fighting clerk, was interviewed for a local cape paper and waved the Natal Mercury with Smiths list and report printed, around saying: "A lot of people say they were there, ay afterwards, but these are the men that were there."

Cheers
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