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 The defenders of Rorkes Drift

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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:39 pm

So are we saying Chards roll was a bit hit and miss or in-correct or he never compiled a roll.
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Lee Stevenson



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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:58 pm

Just to clarify, as it is has been referred to as the 'Smith List,' but is there anything that says that the Rev Smith actually compiled a list/roll of defenders ?
The roll of those present that appeared in the Natal press was 'appended,' (presumably by the newspaper),  to an account by 'An eyewitness,' [subsequently identified as the Rev Smith], as was the 'Official' report of the defence by Chard.....

Reynolds would have been responsible for the list of casualties as per medical regulations.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:31 pm

Hi Lee
But Smith is a distinct possibility in his humanitarian role. Smiths newspaper statement was not attributed, neither was the list. Chards was signed. Would it not therefore be a logical assumption that the unsigned list be appended to the unsigned statement?
Chard seems to have signed all his communications including the schedule of manpower sent to Glyn. Would it not have been the norm to have attached the list to Chards report, if it had been signed?
In terms of this particular, farcical, discussions main point though the so called 'Chard roll' can't be attributed to a military source. And as Ive posted highly likely to have been produced in the 1930 ish period.
HAvent forgotten about your research in JHB, been a touch laid up but will get there in the not to distant future''.

Cheers
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:42 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Ray
Chard produced a synopsis, a list of the numbers present wounded and killed but did not contain the names.
The list you have posted is speculated to have been produced by a civilian by the name of Cantwell for the 50th anniversary. It was based on a list produced by the Rev Smith, Bourns list was also  based on Smiths list.
I will re iterate Johns comment, the signature is a forgery.

And I come back to my point there is no military proof of those men being there.

Cheers

Where's Smiths roll?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:17 pm

Impi,

Impi wrote:
JY. How can that be in your collect [sic.]. It belongs to Edward Garcia.

It does indeed which why I added the link above to indicate from where Littlehand had culled it from.  Did I say anywhere that it did not belong to Edward?

My comment, which you misinterpreted clearly states ...it matches that in my own collection!  Not that it was mine.

Springbok,

I'm going to have to beg to differ with you about Reverend George Smith, he is an officer in the Official Army List under Colonial Militia & Volunteers in April 1878 List he appears in the following unit:
Mooi River Troop.
Weenen Yeomanry.

Capt.
Major-Gen. B. P. Lloyd 26July1876
Lieut.
W. Popham
Q.M. J. Whipp
Surg. H. S. Reynolds
Hon. Chapl. G. Smith

(All spelling and punctuation as per that on page 852 of the April 1878 Official Army List.)

George Smith was an officer in that unit, albeit an Honorary Officer.  I had the same discussion many years ago in The Soldier magazine and they found in my favour that at the time of the Defence of Rorke's Drift was effectively a volunteer under arms.

Just to add to the mix, that if Smith were the author of the roll which Lee mentions above that appeared in the Natal press then maybe, just maybe it does have some military credence.

Regards,

John Y.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:07 pm

When you consider Cantwell roll was done 50 Years after the event. In which time, Jenkins had been painted by Butler. Attended various functions, newspaper reports ect, yet his name was still not added to the roll call. 
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:17 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Hiya impi, have you read this recently?.

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif?sort=6&o=0

Les interesting in that the hand writing expert, thought it was possible that Bromhead complied the roll.

Do you have the follow on page, as it stops before he completed his report.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:27 pm

Hi John
From Honorary Chaplin to Military Credence is a huge stretch.
My point remains, and let me re iterate: The prime argument now against the inclusion of David Jenkins is that there is no military acceptance. If that is so then all the names I listed have to be put into the same box. If we accept that the Chard roll is compiled by a military hand then that would supply the military credence asked for and negate any further argument against him. If on the other hand the original list was compiled, by any other source then the obverse would apply. My contention all along is that it can not be proven that Chard was involved in submitting that list, and for sure it can not be said that he signed it.
That leaves Cantwell, who at the time the 'Chard Roll' came to light, or received prominence, was a civilian. All the rolls carry the same errors, it can then be pretty much guaranteed that they all came from the same source.
And so to my mind it comes down to the first list published in the Natal Mercury, by an unnamed contributor.

24th
Jenkins name is on the roll published on the 9th April 1879 and copied by Cantwell.

Cheers
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:39 pm

Sprinkbok wrote:
Jenkins name is on the roll published on the 9th April 1879 and copied by Cantwell.

1083 Jenkins
841 Jenkins

Not David Jenkins!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:55 pm

24th
If we get to involved in David Jenkins this stream will degenerate exactly the same as the last two have. This stream was started to try and put all the defenders on the same qualification footing as expressed by forum members ie: A military credence must be provided to allow any soldier to be listed as a defender.
That's what Im trying to explore. Hence the tracing of the rolls and the potential authors and time frames.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Lee
Chard in his report to Glyn, 3rd February 1879, finished by listing the numbers of men present during the battle, those lists were above his signature. Would you consider that its feasible that he would repeat the exercise and re list everyone having already done so? In his report he makes mention of providing that list, but no mention of an expanded list.
I would agree that Reynolds provided the list of wounded and dead.

Cheers
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:19 pm

Springy,

Chaplin [sic.] don't be a Charlie! How many other chaplains in the Anglo-Zulu War strode around with armed a pistol? Very few I would contend but the Vicar of Estcourt certainly did. A true Christian Soldier.

24th,

We know where 1/24th 1083 Pte. Watkin Jenkins met his fate and it wasn't at Rorke's Drift. So you can deduct him from the equation. That still leaves us with John Chard's report of 25th January 1879 that lists eleven other-ranks of the 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment as present during the defence.

John Y.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:29 pm

John
Im abashed. Rolling Eyes 
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:47 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:10 pm

Here's George looking decidedly military
with fruit salad! if someone would
do the honours please!

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif?sort=6&o=0
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:30 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
from xhosa200
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:42 pm

Many Thank's Graves, maybe a few members might
not of seen it! xhosa
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:03 pm

Smiths Signature

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John Young Collection
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:37 pm

Littlehand,

But I think you know whose collection that should be attributed to.

John Y.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:28 am

Hi John. If I did, I would have put the source. I now use software that does image searches only, makes searching easier and faster. If the copyright belongs to you let me know I will adjust accordingly.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:24 pm

Littlehand,

Not a question of copyright, it is in my collection, it has already appeared on this site under my former nom-de-guerre of isandlwana.

Just attribute it to my collection in the same way as I do when I post photographs. You also find it on my Photobucket along with a couple hundred or so of my photographic collection.

John Y.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:52 pm

John, not fully understanding this, hopefully your give me the answer. What do you mean" My Collection" the image inquestion should be attributed to you why, if there's not a copyright. Not after an argument or a sarcastic remark. Just a normal answer!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:19 pm

Ray,

In the same way that Ed Garcia & Isandula want items that belong to them to be attributed to their collection, I like the same.

I have spent my hard-earned cash acquiring such items and they are now my property.  Would you like someone using an item of your property without your permission?  I certainly don't.

What I dislike in particular are items from my collection being reproduced without my consent for profit, as has happened on a number occasions.

Do you follow?

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:20 pm

Ray for many years, The John Young Collection has played an important part in the History of the Anglo Zulu War. Other Historians / Authors have used images from his collection in their books. Not so much copyright as courtesy.
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:25 pm

I liked you more when you was Isandlwana.
even though you spell it wrong!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:43 pm

John Young wrote:
Ray,

In the same way that Ed Garcia & Isandula want items that belong to them to be attributed to their collection, I like the same.

I have spent my hard-earned cash acquiring such items and they are now my property.  Would you like someone using an item of your property without your permission?  I certainly don't.

What dislike in particular are items from my collection being reproduced without my consent for profit, as has happened on a number occasions.

Do you follow?

John Y.


Not a bad answer John, bit harsh at the end.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:12 pm

John Young wrote:
Littlehand,

You also find it on my Photobucket along with a couple hundred or so of my photographic collection.

John Y.

Mister Young,

How do we access to your photobucket?
Have you got a link?
Cheers

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:50 pm

Oui my friend, i wish!  Shocked 
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:52 pm

Frédéric,

As far as I'm aware by following one of my img link from one of my photographs.

Here's a new one to try it with:

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Mort du Prince Imperial
John Young Collection.

Just to make things easier for you here's how that one and five others were listed on EBay.

6 CARTES STÉRÉOSCOPIQUES DU 19ème SIÈCLE

Dans la série : Actualités Théâtrales, elles retracent la GUERRE DES ZOULOUS avec la mort tragique du Prince Impérial.
La photographie est à son début, elles ont près de142 ans.
8,7 cm x 17 cm
Ces doubles photographies transparentes, de grande netteté, étaient coloriées à la main au dos, puis protégées par un papier fin translucide, enfin enchâssées dans un cartonnage.

Beaucoup avaient des petites perforations qui rehaussaient des lignes sur les monuments, ou la richesse des parures.

La 2ème photo, qui ne fait pas partie de cette série, nous montre la phase de peinture, puis celle des perçages (Tous les points blanc brillant).

Sur ce document les sabres sont des fentes dans le papier qui laissent passer la lumière.

What I now trying to fathom is how to show to you in colour! As well as the 3-D effect you get through the stereo-viewer!

Regards,

John
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:22 pm

Tried a couple John. You can get into PBucket but it says your library is private.

PS Just tried Les's and you can access that, so it must be a setting.

Regards
Steve
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:10 pm

Steve,

Try it now.

Regards,

John Y.
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Lee Stevenson



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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:11 pm

Frank

It's ok I just wanted to make sure you hadn't found something that's all !!

I would guess that the roll was compiled by a third party and that the summary of units and strengths, along with info from Reynolds' medical return, "list already forwarded," was copied by Chard for his initial report.
Probably another thread and lengthy 'discussion' then as to who might have actually sat down and drawn up the 'roll' but we have already discussed Bourne's later comment that Bromhead had begun a report of the action, but had stopped.
I have seen three different versions of Chard's initial report; one is stated as a "true copy", a second ersion seems to be in the Kimberley Library whilst the third, (held at the National Archives) written by someone else, bears Chard's actual signature...and amendments...possibly also written by him.

As to the other dispatch that we have spoken about, an entry in the Colonial Office records suggests that it was destroyed...date not given. but I need to double check that at the National Archives next time
Lee
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:18 pm

We have access. many thanks John.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:31 pm

Lee
"As to the other dispatch that we have spoken about, an entry in the Colonial Office records suggests that it was destroyed...date not given. but I need to double check that at the National Archives next time"

Hell that could open up a huge can of worms.

Cheers

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:44 pm

[quote="John Young"]Frédéric,

As far as I'm aware by following one of my img link from one of my photographs.

Here's a new one to try it with:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


thank you very much Mister Young...but no succes for me!!!
I have "put" the link (http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif][img]http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif) in "search" in photobucket and  in "google"...

Very nice photos of the Prince Imperial. Comment in French! great! most easier for me!
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:05 am

Ymob, click on the link you posted, once open click on the grid symbol,located between the two buttons
Prev & Next.
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:08 am

Or just click on the picture and your in.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:30 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Or just click on the picture and your in.

Thank you Admin and Les,
I am the "forrest Gump" of the computer!
Regard
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:46 pm

hiya compagnon! crois que je suis une légende
technophobe, il fonctionne de, il ne fait pas! pah!  Wink 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The defenders of Rorkes Drift   Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:20 pm

Ive just spent some time looking through the defenders of RD and their histories. Probably 90% plus either served or transfered into the SWB.
So the 24th, really didn't die, merely changed their name, and retained the manpower and history.

Cheers
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