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Lieutenant Lionel Algernon White, 53rd (Shropshire) Regiment / Commissariat & Transport
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Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift 22nd January 2019
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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 6:50 pm


Sir Garnet Wolseley said of Lt Nevill Coghill and Lt Teignmouth Melvill. It is monstrous making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting. says admin via the homepage banner!
Wolseley had a lot to say about everybody including..Harward and Carey..
So if we have to give Melvill the benefit, (no one witnessed him being ordered
to carry the colours to safety ) and as he was Adjutant was he not duty bound
to stay and share his mens fate be it good or more importantly bad! to save the
colours when all goes pear shaped is a tradition the British had been accustomed
to! the 24th more than most! but it does NOT require an officer, anyone
would do! Coghill seems to have bolted, pure and simple in my opinion!

There you go Pete, lets see if there are any takers..
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Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 7:04 pm

Xhosa wrote:
Coghill seems to have bolted, pure and simple in my opinion!

That is an outrageous remark to make, about an officer who assisted in the saving of the colours! He was a brave man.
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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 7:18 pm

That is an outrageous remark to make, about an officer who assisted in the saving of the colours! He was a brave man....fair enough that's your opinion!

I only gave mine! i have no question about Coghill's bravery coming back out
of that river! think before you speak please..and consider this! all the survivors
did so on horseback!i have no beef with any of our armed forces.. but many
people continue to skirt around this issue..surely time for a rational debate! you
or others might not like what i say, but i do have the right to say it! its called
democracy, hard won by both my grandfathers and countless others!.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3900
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Location : KENT

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 7:30 pm

Very Happy  Les is this History repeating it's self. Just be carefull we don't get banned from this forum!
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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 7:46 pm

Wicked sense of humour, i remember that!  Very Happy 

For a long time people have set down their thoughts
on this issue, like, where was M and C on the FD trail,
what was the timeline, who saw them! every one seems
to skirt this issue...why? there has been enough time and
distance passed..as long as no one is deliberately offensive
then..lets go! the C IN C can gave his opinion all that time
ago and all now know what he said!
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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 8:30 pm

Sauve qui peut. That certainly absolves those who left the battlefield after the retreat...turned into a rout. As for those who left before them...consider that many were civilian and had that right really. In any case the first to flee tried to head back towards Rorke's Drift and they were met by the Zulu right wing...and dispatched. The latter group vacated the battlefield when it was arguable more appropriate. They enjoyed the benefit of their predecessors' example and headed for Fugitive's Drift. They had a better chance to survive...and I bet Coghill was among them.

Wolseley could mutter under his breath all he liked -- he still served in the British Army not a Japanese feudal shogunate.
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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 8:52 pm

Sauve qui peut. That certainly absolves those who left the battlefield after the retreat...

Obviously you are not being serious..now 6pdr we have had this chat before! remember
the ethos of the victorian officer class, boiled down to Cambridges own regiments motto!
'death before dishonour' digest that again if you please! the not so fancy phrase just
means...every man for himself..every thing you said above shows your ignorance of these
matters, let the debate continue a bit till you get the hang of it!

"Wolseley could mutter under his breath all he liked -- he still served in the British Army not a Japanese feudal shogunate"....no mate ! he was a general in the British Army and later became
the C IN C.. its not the mikado.. dont wish to appear overbearing, but your pompous replies
with out an apparent understanding of the subject irks a wee bit. no offence, i will not respond
again until others run with this a while. if they so wish.


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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyThu Jul 10, 2014 8:58 pm

That's the point. When the situation reaches a stage where sauve qui peut is the only sane response, there is no dishonor in running away as long as you fight another day...which many of the survivors did a few months later.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 9:09 am

Les
You've seen how I build the 3 dimensional computer models ? I have one Ive been working on for a long time of the Fugitives trail and the positions sightings etc of ALL the fugitives. And the only salient point is............it doesn't work. Or rather it does if you take Smith Dorrien out of the equation then it all fits like a jigsaw. But good old Horace screws everything up. and you cant discount him, that's the problem.

Cheers
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6pdr

6pdr

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making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 1:22 pm

Springbok,

 Shocked  That's REALLY interesting in light of some other irregularities or controversial elements in Smith-Dorrien's testimony. Do you have a working theory?...he innocently inquires. (I know you must!)
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 1989
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Age : 63
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptyFri Jul 11, 2014 6:40 pm

Frank,

Are we talking 1879 Smith-Dorrien as appear in U.K. press at the time, or his autobiography?

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7350
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Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 2:41 am

Hi John
His Autobiography.
Question on a separate issue for you, do you have the photos of the old trading post down on the crossing at Durnfords Donga?


Regards
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7350
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting Empty
PostSubject: Re: making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting   making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting EmptySat Jul 12, 2014 5:42 pm

Springbok,

Shocked That's REALLY interesting in light of some other irregularities or controversial elements in Smith-Dorrien's testimony. Do you have a working theory?...he innocently inquires. (I know you must!)

Funny you should mention that.......................... but yes.

Cheers
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