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| | The ammunition question | |
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+14Ulundi impi Chelmsfordthescapegoat John Dave old historian2 rusteze 24th cetewayo ymob Frank Allewell 6pdr littlehand Julian Whybra 18 posters | |
Author | Message |
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6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:51 pm | |
| - Chard1879 wrote:
- And it's pure speculation that SD had memory problems in later life.
Yes, but it's also true that aspects of his two accounts contradicted many others and even himself to little discernible purpose. It is also a fact that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable to begin with. It is also a fact that people in general tend to show significant memory deterioration as they age. So, raising the POSSIBILITY that he mistaken in some details decades later is an entirely reasonable line of inquiry. |
| | | 6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:59 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
- But again i say LC did not take the
Ammunition, now i think that beyond ' fishy ' if he was going to confront the main Zulu Army, what was he going to fight with?.... Oh, this is even LESS credible than most things Frere said and did. He was clearly willing to say whatever was necessary to save his skin after the disaster. Mostly this is an attempt to pin the tail on a donkey named Durnford. If you don't credit that (and I certainly don't) then why would you take seriously Frere's contention that Chelmsford EXPECTED a 15-20K Zulu army? Either LC didn't expect it or he couldn't do simple maths. What motive had he to get himself and his entire command potentially wiped out? |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:51 pm | |
| i offered the above without prejudice! merely to point out 1. Chelmsford's stated intention to confront the whole of the Zulu Army at the first opportunity, and 2, the bottom line ties in with the ammunition thread! again i have to say to you STOP trying to second guess my intentions, who said he was trying to get himself and his entire command wiped out! stop being so literal.....i'm merely adding to the mix in order for people to think and then question this campaign more closely!!
on the S-D thread re the photograph, stop going on.... this is not a COMPETITION!!! just post the thing. s..t or get off the pot. last thing 6pdr. Step off me! i'm really not as interested as you seem to be!. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:27 pm | |
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| | | 6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:23 pm | |
| OK, so I have a question. For those (colonials etc...) not seeking Martini Henry ammo (because they were armed with carbines or what have you) would the battalion ammunition wagons have any useful rounds?
And, if they did have bullets useful for rifles other than the MH, would those rounds even be stored in British Army mahogony/teak boxes? |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:59 am | |
| I think this has been asked before, and the answer was no, the British wagons contain MH rounds only. Durfords wagons would have held their own supplies. Happy to be corrected.
But no doubt during the course of the Battle, colonials may have picked up the odd MH rifle that had been lost to a dead soldier. |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:13 am | |
| I posted that old footage for those not familiar with a close view of an ammunition box! please look carefully at the box, the Sandhurst geezer tells us that it came straight off the battlefield! and then proceeded to show the difficulty of accessing the contents...dramatically pointing out the ' bayonet ' marks?.
And now consider where these boxes were to be found, certainly not on the firing line! so then please consider the range of tools readily available to hand in camp! the list becomes very long, forgetting the pioneers.. there were. pickaxes, axes, jemmys, crowbars, steel levering bars?, rifle butts, steel shod ammunition boots. and of course the ' screwdrivers '.
the ' historian ' makes a big deal about the bayonet thrust marks ( incidentaly from the wrong side ) and goes on to show that by removing ONE screw the sliding panel can be easily accessed! again a big deal is made out of the QM's role in this battle, stressing the professionalism of that breed of men, accounting for every round and indeed every spent cartridge case...
Now note the various timings! all was good as long as the front line held and Durnford was doing his thing out on the right, springbok contends that there was no sudden collapse ( despite the the blame shifted immediately to the poor maligned NNC..) NO! this was an orderly withdrawal back onto the camp, which must be why so many of the lasts stands held out as long as they did because they had ammunition......
The Zulu were paused and laid down under the intense fire of the Martinis, we know after the bravest of rallying calls the Zulu rose up and came on with even more fanatical determination and bravery...what was the high command doing at this point, i'm thinking of Pulleine with Melvill as his eyes and ears..they were watching the battle unfold, they had noted the way the Zulu were coming on! ( unlike any thing they had seen all their time in Africa! ) and at some point sounded the recall! ( once, twice?. What did they actually see to make that decision? they saw up to fifteen thousand highly disciplined and motivated troops ( yes they were troop's!) advancing and it seemed like nothing could stop them! if they could see that! who else could..and how many were actual effective's in camp, how many actual fighting men, my own estimate is a very generous 750 to 800..i cannot believe the QM's were not acutely aware of the situation at this time as those with no business with the actual fighting were not so quietly making good their preparations for flight. i sincerely believe that there was No Ammunition shortage..but the 24th and colonials were simply ground down by overwhelming force!.. but the british could not stomach the fact that an indigenous force had out general'd and outfought them! so the ' spin began ' ammunition shortage at Isandhlwana? err no! there was a tactic and ultimately troop shortage. this is of course just my own opinion! i wont be about to change it any time soon..
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| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:21 am | |
| "springbok contends that there was no sudden collapse ( despite the the blame shifted immediately to the poor maligned NNC..) " |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:18 pm | |
| Julian Cetshwayo A couple of pages back we were discussing uniforms and numbers. Possibly this may assist [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
| | | 6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:27 pm | |
| - littlehand wrote:
- I think this has been asked before, and the answer was no, the British wagons contain MH rounds only. Durfords wagons would have held their own supplies.
Well the reason I ask is that much is made of the couriers (for lack of a better word) that Durnford dispatched back to secure more ammunition were supposed to have been refused rounds at the battalion wagons, but it wasn't there for them anyway as their men were armed with Sniders or what have you... In other words, much has been made of the refusal (this is separate from Smith-Dorrien's story now,) to issue ammunition for the men in the donga but without knowledge of where their wagon was located (for it arrived late to the battlefield,) that was pretty much academic anyway?
Last edited by 6pdr on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:45 pm | |
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| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:00 pm | |
| This Ulundi, but it perfectly illustrates how the Zulu ' Came On ' in battle.. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:32 pm | |
| - 6pdr wrote:
- littlehand wrote:
- I think this has been asked before, and the answer was no, the British wagons contain MH rounds only. Durfords wagons would have held their own supplies.
Well the reason I ask is that much is made of the couriers (for lack of a better word) that Durnford dispatched back to secure more information were supposed to have been refused rounds at the battalion wagons, but it wasn't there for them anyway as their men were armed with Sniders or what have you...
In other words, much has been made of the refusal (this is separate from Smith-Dorrien's story now,) to issue ammunition for the men in the donga but without knowledge of where their wagon was located (for it arrived late to the battlefield,) that was pretty much academic anyway? I'm not sure Durnfords troops were replenished, can't think of his name of hand, but one of the Coloinals rode in, to find the ammuntion boxes had not been opened. But in-hind sight the Coloinals still could have supplied MH ammo to the firing lines albeit for British, quicker being on horseback. |
| | | littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:03 pm | |
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| | | cetewayo
Posts : 24 Join date : 2012-05-30 Location : United States
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:00 am | |
| - springbok9 wrote:
- Julian Cetshwayo
A couple of pages back we were discussing uniforms and numbers. Possibly this may assist [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thanks Springbok. Aren't these lists the ones compiled by Fynney? |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: The Ammunition Question Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:58 am | |
| Hi Springy These lists you posted are also in ' The Zulu Army And Zulu Headmen ' . Inside the front cover it states ' Compiled from Information obtained from the most reliable sources ' ; and Published ' By Direction Of The Lieut - Gen Commanding ' - For the Information Of Those Under His Command ; Which I'm certain was compiled with help from Fynney , it's also as it states , the book handed to the Column commanders before the invasion , from memory these were distributed in Dec 78 ? . 90th
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| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:08 am | |
| These are the original lists drawn up by I believe Fynney. There were donated to the archives by C Faye who was head of Natal Bantu Affairs Department. I know they have been incorporated into all sorts of books but on occasion its nice to see the original documents. In terms of research its always better to go back to the source documents rather than relying on authors interpretations.
Cheers |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: The Ammunition Question Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:15 am | |
| Hi Springy Yes agreed , it's always best to get your hands on the Originals , they would take on a persona of their own , due to my lack of a better word ! . It seems it's also the Originals which are indeed in the book I mentioned Cheers 90th |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:27 am | |
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| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:12 am | |
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| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:19 am | |
| Hi Les yeah I don't think there are many left that actually buy the story of the screwdrivers.
Cheers |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: The Ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:53 am | |
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| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:07 pm | |
| Hiya you two, Frank i hope not, but i will bang on as long as i find stuff relating, for those newbies coming along after us! loving your archive finds,well interesting!. |
| | | Mr Greaves
Posts : 747 Join date : 2009-10-18
| Subject: Re: The ammunition question Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:33 pm | |
| Could be wrong, but I don't recall reading any accounts from any of the survivors or anyone else for that matter, that was there or heard stories after the event, that mentions lack of screwdrivers.?
But if there wasn't a lack of screwdrivers why wasn't ammuntion flowing faster, why were comments made regarding ammuntion boxes not opened? When they arrived at the camp. |
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