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 Zulu small unit organisation questions

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sjwalker51

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PostSubject: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:18 pm

Gents, I'm looking into the organisation and training of the Zulu regiment and its subunits, the Ivoyo (company) made up of several Ikhanda each of 40-60 men. Several sources tell me each regimental Induna was assisted by subordinate 'wing commanders' but was there a particular Zulu term for this rank? What term was used for the company commander and were there the equivalent of NCOs in the Zulu army?

A tactical unit of 40-60 men is pretty unwieldy, even given the rather unsophisticated regimental battlefield tactics generally used (as opposed to the strategic and grand tactical) - is there any evidence of Zulus being trained in particular manoeuvres or was their command and control essentially limited to following basic orders along the lines of "follow me", "go there" or "charge!!" given by the biggest, meanest, most experienced warrior present at the time - or were there recognised NCO types- 'leaders of 10' , 'heroes', ' champions' etc and what terms were used to denote such ' Big Men'?

All comments and suggested terms/ranks much appreciated
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:32 pm

Does this help ?
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:31 am

Thanks for that, 24th, the Farnsworth article was one of the first places I looked, along with Ian Knights "Anatomy of..." and others. Unfortunately, they all start with the Ikhanda as the basic building block and I can find no references whatsoever to junior officer/NCO equivalents at this level. Presumably, that's not unusual for a 'warrior militia' society.

Can any linguist tell me what the Zulu word for 'Big Man', 'Hero' or similar might be? That would be sufficient for my needs at this stage.

Thanks again

Simon



A direct translation for a 'big man' is umuntu omkhulu
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu small unit organisation questions    Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:16 am

Hi sjwalker
I think I've read something about what you ask , give me a couple of days to have a dig around , hopefully I wont forget if I do send me a PM .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:48 pm

Nkosi !
Any superior, from a lowly cattle herder addressing the kraal head, to anyone addressing GOD.
As in
Nkosi sikelel' iAfrika.
Maluphakanyisw' uphondo lwayo,
Yizwa imithandazo yethu,
Nkosi sikelela, thina lusapho lwayo.
Morena boloka setjhaba ..................................

Lord bless Africa.

Anyone above you is Nkosi.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Zulu words for those in authority   Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:19 pm

Hi sjwalker51
Here are some Zulu names to get the perspectives right;

god               ;  inkulankulu
king              ;  nkosi
chief             ;  umholi, or abakulu, ( also read headman)
commander   ;  induna
kehla            ;  old man, tribal elder, much revered and respected, who is entitled to wear the issicocco because of his age and wisdom

regards,

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:44 pm

God Bless Africa. 
Maluphakanyisw 'his horn, 
Hear our prayers, 
God Bless, we are a family of faith. 
Morena boloka setjhab  ..whats that Frank?
a line from a praise poem?
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:28 pm

To answer the original question.. Induna. below him was an officer
second in command, and two wing officers.then came the Captains
of the companies, who sometimes had from one to three junior
officer's..
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:22 am

sjwalker51 wrote:
Thanks for that, 24th, the Farnsworth article was one of the first places I looked, along with Ian Knights "Anatomy of..." and others. Unfortunately, they all start with the Ikhanda as the basic building block and I can find no references whatsoever to junior officer/NCO equivalents at this level. Presumably, that's not unusual for a 'warrior militia' society.

Can any linguist tell me what the Zulu word for 'Big Man', 'Hero' or similar might be? That would be sufficient for my needs at this stage.

Thanks again

Simon

"A direct translation for a 'big man' is umuntu omkhulu"
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PostSubject: A big man   Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:45 am

If in  Zulu, if one is referring to a male with a large physique the correct term would be; ' indoda enkulu'

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:35 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:55 pm

Gents, thanks for all the suggestions and leads, especially the archive suggested by xhosa2000.

It seems that, despite so much research over the years and knowing how the regiments were organised, there are no immediately obvious Zulu term for the 'company commander/captain' rank or for one of his lieutenants - which is what makes the period so fascinating.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:06 pm

Hmmm, not sure I want to shell out for all 6 volumes of the Stuart archive on the off-chance there's something there of relevance - is there a generous owner out there who could have a quick look on my account?

So many references in the index to 'officers', 'insignia' and 'organisation' suggests there may well be something there!
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:36 pm

You gave me a start there mate, 6 Vols, no there are only the five!
the planned num 6 will i suspect never materialize. at least not in 
the form as its predecessors.hope i'm wrong about that!. 

Some kind person, guess you will have to make do with me! Very Happy 
this is tricky in the fact that one has to be accustomed to the story
of the Ama Zulu, theirs was a very sophisticated society they have
customs and therefore words and phrases to describe so many things..
When Shaka KaSenzangakhona founded the Zulu Nation he set it up in 
such a way that everything revolved around a central pivot, namely him-
self, he devolved power downwards, mainly his mother and firstwife, 
followed by his personal security arrangements, which put in place his
prime minister and Izinduna and Induna's.. as said he built up in a fright-
fully short time an amazing infrastructure which was concentrated on the
needs of the state and then the people, so that at the same time they were
both a pastoral and millitary people. he conferred power on people he most
trusted and that was subject to change, sometimes at frightning speed, he
was the father of his people and although capricious i do not believe he was
the cruel despot he has been so often betrayed as..The Black Napoleon was
undoubtedly one of the finest and shrewdest people to emerge from '  The
Dark Continent '. 

Now if you would like i could scan some of the pages from the archive to give
you some kind of context, or if you have  a Zulu / English and English / Zulu
dictionary you could simply look up the following words.. Chief, Commander,
Lieutenant, section's, as applied to the Military. hope any of this makes sense
to you!.                                                              cheers Les

To any onlooker, the potted history was off the top of my head, so be kind..
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PostSubject: zulu small unit organisation questions    Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:40 am

Hi sjwalker
I couldnt find anything in what I have but I know I've read something similar over the years to what you are asking . My copy of ' The Illustrated Guide to the Anglo Zulu War ' by Laband & Thompson arrived yesterday , the following from page 12 - 13 , this may be of some help .
' Each ibutho was divided up into a number of sections , or amaviyo ( singular - iviyo ) . Each iviyo consisted of men of the same age group , drawn from a particular localality who had been formed into the section during the days as cadets at one of the district amakhanda . Each ibutho was commanded by an induna ( who might even be a member of the Royal House ) appointed by the King . His was a position of great power and prestige . Under him were a second - in - Command and two experienced wing officers , all of an older generation than the men they led . There were also a number of Junior officers , at least two to each iviyo , who had been chosen by their contemporaries in their days of cadets ' .
Unfortunately no title is given to these Wing Officers or NCO's . I've also gone through Ian Knight's ' Anatomy Of The Zulu Army ' and I didnt find it mentioned either . Hope this has been of some help ? .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:20 am

Good work 90th.
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sjwalker51

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:07 pm

Thanks for all your help and suggestions gentlemen, much appreciated. As I said, it only goes to show how much is still unknown about the Zulu military system even after so many years - we know more about the organisation of the ancient Roman cohort than we do the Zulu Ibutho, it seems.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:49 am

Yeah mate agreed.. Salute
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sjwalker51

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:32 pm

Found some useful stuff in a booklet called "The Zulu Army and Zulu Headmen" originally printed in 1879 as a guide for officers in the field and now reprinted by Naval & Military Press.

It gives the titles of the senior officers of a regiment (commander, 2ic and wing commanders) in phonetic English - so the 2ic is the Induna Yohlangoti, for example.

It also has some comments on uniforms (quite detailed)' drill, logistics and order of march, plus a list of c. 100 Headmen, including their ages, kraal or regiment and comments on their character.

Very useful little booklet.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:06 am

Sj
If that was the booklet by Farrer a copy was sold on Auction last month for 441 USD.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu small unit organisations questions    Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:06 am

Hi sjwalker
Thanks for the heads up , I knew I'd seen it somewhere I do have that book , mine didnt cost very much , think I got it rather cheap at a sale which Naval & Military Press tend to have every now and again.
Springbok
How was the trip ???? Very Happy Very Happy .
90th Shocked
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sjwalker51

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:32 am

N&M have it for £4.99 at the moment, along with several other heavily discounted zulu War titles - "Who's Who..." or "Voices from..." for £3.99 each, others at -65-80% off.
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu small unit organisation questions    Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:46 am

Hi sjw
Yes I've been lucky enough to get some excellent bargains from N & M press .
90th You need to study mo agree
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:02 pm

SJ and 90th
We are obviously talking re prints for those prices?

90th
Brilliant trip, the lectures went of well. And the research trips were really worth while. When you go next year you must definitely need to extend the trip after the guided tour and do some exploring.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:04 pm

Springbok, the booklet is a reprint of the original in conjunction with the NAM, the others are just very good deals on their own publications, and not just AZW either.
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu small unit organisation questions    Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:55 am

Hi Springy .
Yes my friend , the wheels are already in motion to do what you suggested in your post ! Very Happy Very Happy . Just need to have the ducks line up , and then ' BANG ' it will be done ! . What weather did you have ? .
90th .
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:29 am

90th
Need a guide? Very Happy agree
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu small unit organisation questions    Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:04 pm

Springy
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy agree agree agree
90th Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: zulu small unit organisation    Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:17 pm

Hi sjwalker
A friend send me the following , hope it's what your after ?? .

Principle induna at the top (induna inkhulu)
Two sub-commanders under him, each commanding a wing - roughly half of
an ibutho.
Beneath them were a number of lesser indunas (izinduna in Zulu), each
commanding a section, a group of amaviyo (companies). It's not entirely
clear how this was done but they may well have commanded companies of
men who came from their own area.

The above were all appointed from above (by the king, his councillors,
and the regimental commanders), and from men outside the ibutho,
usually from older, more experienced men. The rank common to all of
them was induna, which just means an appointed official of the state or
chiefdom. This might be qualified according to their specific duties -
for example the induna yas'uhlangothi - 'the induna of the left-hand
section' - commanded those companies who were quartered on the
left-hand side of an ikhanda (royal homestead).

Within a company were a number of junior izinduna who were appointed
from within an ibutho during training, being chosen for their skill and
initiative. These were of the same age as the ordinary members of an
ibutho, and worked rather like senior NCOs. Mehlokazulu kaSihayo held
such a position among the iNgobamakhosi, and held a good deal of
influence within the ibutho generally as he was the son of a royal
favourite, and was one of the king's personal attendants.

There was no uniform size to a company - or indeed an ibutho - because
it depended on the population of young men at the time of the call up.
If there were a lot of youths around that year the ibutho, and the
companies, were bigger.

Other names for commanders - inkosi (chief, important person), possibly
baba (father, used as a term of respect), or iqawe (pronounced with a
click sound on the 'q', or otherwise 'ika-way'), which means hero, or
acknowledged warrior.

This was the structure of an ibutho - when Zulus fought in local
actions, under the command of their own chiefs, rather than in a royal
ibutho (such as the raids across the Thukela in the middle of the war)
- when the royal regiments were dispersed, and the men were at home
with their families - they would be led by commanders appointed by
their own chiefs. Such commanders also ranked as izinduna for the
occasion.

The Fynney pamphlet by the way is indeed an important source, but at
times he stretches the parallels with a European army too far; he was
writing for Lord Chelmsford's officers, and knew they wanted everything
to fit in nice neat lines which they could equate to! But the Zulus
were a part-time citizen militia, so it doesn't always work to look for
signs of regular army practise among them.
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:03 pm



If this image disappears, the fault is with pb, i have not deleted it.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:36 am

Les

Ref your earlier post re. James Stuart Archive, you will be interested in this.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:40 am

They don't sell direct anymore so you do need to buy through a dealer. Ive ordered through Exclusive.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:54 am

Well, Well, cheers you two! how did i miss that. i
wonder if he completed it on his own?.you have
given me something to get my teeth into.. and
the strike is going on a bit! i only ordered a book
from bidorbuy last friday its a fully signed up 1st
ed of Bhutelezi's bio. dont think i should be holding
my breath for that!  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:09 pm

Les the strikes been on for around 6 weeks and no end in site. As you can guess its causing a bit of chaos.
Ive paid slightly over the top to get it sent by courier. But very keen to get it.
The authors are still noted as Webb and Wright.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:22 pm

Hiya Frank, what a bummer, been on the Exclusive site,
registered, will follow it through tomorrow! don't think i
will get the same courier service though  Very Happy. yes the same
names, expect Webb honours his memory. cheers Les
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:47 pm

Only right that Webb did that, the honourable thing to do. Im just hoping that the 'patches' Ive been trying to locate are in there.
By the way I was just offered 'By those who were there' Lee's book on RD, for 150GBP. Came very close to another heart attack. Seeing as that book is so hard to get hold of its about time that Lee looked to his publishers for a re print.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Zulu small unit organisation questions    Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:50 pm

Hi Les / Springy
I've won some books on Bid or Buy been waiting 2 weeks or so , I may be waiting much longer by the look of it ! Shocked You need to study mo .
90th Don\'t agree
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:01 pm

I'm sure what you seek will be there! i really
did not think it would see the light of day, as
Steve says..you ref something and up it pops,
like a song that comes in your head that you
have not heard in yonks, then bam! before you
know it its on the radio, tv.. i got Lee's book
signed by him and Alan to me! yes its years
ago now. the prices in general are barmy, i dont
trust any of them, it is and will always be..a buyers
market, so its all down to who wants what on 
the day, but crucially..what there prepared to pay!.

Hiya Gary, yeah mate like i said, wont be holding my
breath.. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:05 pm

Gary if they are being posted could be there for Xmas...................next year No May be better to pick them up in February? I bought two from a Natal dealer and had them delivered instead.
Have you checked out the Antique site yet?

Cheers
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PostSubject: zulu small unit organisation questions    Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:26 pm

Very Happy Springy maybe I will pick them up in March , one of them at least is coming from Durban ! Salute agree Antiquarian Auc site ?
I saw it last week from memory but have deleted this Auction . Have my eye on something from DNW on the 24th Oct .
Cheers Mate , Gary.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:43 pm

Theres one ive been after for a while, here's hoping. agree agree
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:49 pm

Oh, can i just say..again, stop looking
and then buying books which on a fair
and level playing ground should all be
mine!  Suspect  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:10 pm

cmon Les, you've got your share, take your wife out for dinner instead. Very Happy agree

PS my Volume 6 is scheduled for delivery on Friday and coincidently we are of into the mountains for a couple of days of big log fires in a stone hut, great views through the mist and a good book. So looking forward to a good weekend and a couple of bottles of red.
Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:51 pm

Dinner! met and married wihin 6 weeks, that
was 38 years ago! its gone way beyond dinner
mate.. enjoy your chill.
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:46 am

Picked mine up hitch hiking, wrote for 6 months then flew out to SA to get married. Been 46 years now and still there ( The ladies got a lot of bloody patience ) Very Happy Very Happy
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sjwalker51

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Join date : 2011-01-09
Location : Barnsley UK

PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:53 pm

Gents, thanks for the help - it's much appreciated, just what I needed
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:14 pm

The mock up above is just a random selection.
copywrite Michael Farnworth 2009. the photo's
i just chucked in to fill the space.    cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:15 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Simon, whilst looking for something else i came across
a pdf stashed away by Michael Farnworth entitled The
Structure of the Zulu Army..it was published in War-
games Magazine..you might have come across it? masses
of info.

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Nice post Xhosa!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu small unit organisation questions   Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:34 pm

Thank you john  Salute
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