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 Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy

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SergioD

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PostSubject: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:01 pm

I recently acquired a SAGS clasp 1877-8-9 to Corporal F Bergman Hottentot levy . He is shown as Berryman in Dutton's Roll.

The thing that attracted me to the medal was that he was the only member of the Hottentot Levy with the triple year clasp ( the rest had 1877-8 only) and hopefully he was therefore unique in being the only guy in his regiment to serve in the Zulu (hopefully rather than the Sekukuni) war.

Does anyone have any information on him or seen him in other rolls for different regiments? I havent been able to find anything as yet - havent had the time to do a more thorough trawl.

Thanks

Sergio


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90th

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PostSubject: Corp F. Bergman Hottentot Levy    Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:10 pm

Hi Sergio
I'll have a look through Terry Sole's book after work today .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:52 pm

Oh for a time machine! this from the the preface
of Soles book.. you could'nt make it up!

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90th

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PostSubject: Corp F.Bergman Hottentot Levy    Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:14 am

Hi Les
Yes I was well aware of the Colonial records being pulped , do you know how often over the years I wished those records were still available Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree . Arrggghhhhhhh !! Rolling Eyes Mad Rolling Eyes Mad Sad Sad Sad
Cheers 90th Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:20 pm

Hiya Gary, yeah you, and a succession of
researchers must have cursed that decision.
its incredible really that they must have 
known, and then, not cared what was thrown
away!.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:57 pm

Sad but I don't find it all that surprising. In 1916 these records were not very old and there was a pressing need to maintain war production. Paper was a difficult commodity as the raw material, wood pulp, had to be largely imported by sea against the threat of the u-boat menace. The paper was not just thrown away but used to good effect.

It is also a fact that government records are largely destroyed, even today. I can well remember having to review mountains of material before it was sent to Kew, that which survived the first review did not always survive a second review some years later. It has to be historically significant, and that's quite difficult to judge before the event. If this was not done we would all drown in paper!

What about computer records which now predominate. Trouble with that is huge amounts of the earlier stuff can no longer be read because the technology doesn't exist - remember punched tape and spinning reels?  So its a tricky business. Of course historians want everything kept - but it just aint practical.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:51 pm

Don't believe the last! am i just being paranoid? but i
endlessly warn any one, especially my kids, who feel 
the need to spew out indiscriminately every minute
detail of their life's on social media, fb and twitter ect.
this information IS gathered and kept by most govt's
of the world, the uk and usa being the worlds biggest
offenders..don't believe it? ask Edward Snowden  who
is either a hero or a villain depending on your lifeview.

The tech always exist's..they.. spooks of any persuasion
would always find a way! we call it all retro nowadays..
i have come a long way since 3 channel tv, 12.oclock it
was switch off for everybody and off to bed. well i did'nt
go to bed! i stayed up!. now i dont pay a penny to Murdoch,
we have recordable freeview, freesat, now tv and chrome
cast, along with my laptop,tablet. and smartphone, if any
one thinks we are not the most spied on country in the 
world then think again, its just not good enough to sleepwalk
into all this. under the pretense of nation security and the
ever present terrorist threat. which we in my lifetime has 
always been the case..

So why are they keeping and storing all this raw data? would 
anybody care to illuminate me!. to keep us all safe? to sell on
for a myriad of reasons inc targeted advertising? i dont know,
what i do recall is that most of the most odious and vicious
regimes of the past had vast files on there own citizens! so be
careful of what you put out there, one day it might be used with
out your knowledge or permission, and it will never be for you!
always against..and to those who might reasonably say ' if you
have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear!..to them i say 
grow up! look at the world how it is..not how you perceive it to be.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:15 pm

Paranoid - just a tad!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:36 pm

Hardly! i invite people to step out of their
' bubble ' for as long as it takes to have a
long hard look at the world..forewarned will
always be forearmed..no problem!  Very Happy
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:51 am

I think your right !
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Salute   Wink  xhosa
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:40 pm

rusteze wrote:
Paranoid - just a tad!

Steve

I was replying Steve!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:00 pm

Yes father in law, i knew! but the salute and grin still stand's..
four exclamation marks..my my, who got your goat?  Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:37 pm

Sergio
Although the surname is Bergman it is interesting that he is recorded as Berryman.
I wonder if he was a Swede as Bergman would be pronounced Berryman in Swedish.
It might provide a lead...
Julian
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:11 pm

Thanks Julian , I am pretty scertain it is the same guy. I thought it was just a misspelling of his name. But your theory makes far more sense.

a kind forum member has found Corporal Frederick Berryman's entry in the miscellaneous listings of the colonial corps in the medal roll. ehich showes him entitles to all three years - for the gaikas, galekas and other Kaffir tribes 1877-78 and also against Moirosi's stronghold.

Sergio
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90th

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PostSubject: Corp F.Bergman Hottentot Levy    Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:56 pm

HJi Sergio
I went through Terry Sole's ' For God , Queen & Colony ' didnt find Cpl .F. Bergman , which is no surprise after reading your latest post , seems he didnt take part in the war actually against the Zulu's ? . Nice find though all the same ! Salute
Cheers 90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:50 am

Sergio
Which roll was that? If it was Forsyth's, it's not definitive. Not only did he omit many men but he included when he shouldn't, and those he did include he made mistakes over!
90th
I suppose a sort of ditto. I tend to be wary of all non-contemporary rolls and try to find an original primary source. Just because he's not in Sole's work, doesn't mean he didn't fight against the Zulus.
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PostSubject: Corp F.Bergman Hottentot Levy    Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:27 am

Hi Julian
Point taken Salute , I also didnt look for a '' Berryman '' only Bergman . If I remember I'll check that name in Sole's You need to study mo
Cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:58 am

Hi guys -

Yes Julian , I agree Dutton has a few errors in. This was actually the orignal roll WO100/49.

No need to check 90th there is a Berryman as the only three clasp medal . I like Julian's explanation above . I reckon its the same guy. I agree its a nice find !
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:13 am

Sergio
I can be quite specific about Swedish as it is the only one of the 3 Scandinavian languages that pronounces g similar to a y. A roll compiled from oral remarks might easily include 'Berryman' for Bergman, especially in an age when not everyone could read and write.
Perhaps your next stop might be immigration records/ships' passenger lists from Sweden into SA.
An interesting little find!
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PostSubject: The Hottentot Bergman   Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:48 pm

Hi All,
I think that Bergman was a man of mixed blood, ie with Hottentot/Bushman/Cape Malay  ancestry. Thus the acquired  Dutch name, Bergman.  
The theory about his origins in the Cape  are supported  by his campaign medals. 
Now levies in the AZW were hewers of wood and carriers of water as well as sometimes, very good mulateers. They all served in a very useful support role.

regards

barry
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:59 pm

Barry
Yes, Bergman (with a hard g) can also be a Dutch surname. But would not NCOs in charge of Hottentots be Europeans? Do you have any evidence for his proposed mixed blood racial origin? Where does this idea come from?
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:47 pm

Hi JW,

My supposition comes firstly from the name Bergman, which is definitely not a Hottentot name.  It could be a Dutch name. 
The Hottentot/Bushman language is comprised of a  series of clicks which westerners have a problem understanding, never mind speaking.
So with that in mind a supervisor of other Hottentots would have to convey orders to his underlings who probably would understand very little of spoken English or even the high Dutch spoken in the Cape.
So, a man who could speak the languages would probably be a descendant of one of the Dutch farmers in the  Cape who  had taken a slave Cape Malay mistress. The progeny of these unions normally enjoyed some basic schooling and took their father's name. This was very common in those earlier years and these mixed blood persons with some schooling were somewhat  more intelligent than the rest and performed quite well in supervisory roles.
To answer your question, a  " European " supervisor would have a problem communicating with Hottentots.
Now if anyone has further interest in the Dutch family names of the  Cape, there is a listing on the web. This includes names of slaves attached to the various Dutch farming families.  
I would suggest that any medals earned by Bergman should be sought after and  could fetch high prices as he would indeed be a rare breed.
regards

barry
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:56 pm

Interesting and also very plausible!
Why make him an NCO?  Why not simply have him as a trooper-interpreter (like Molife for example)?


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:59 pm

Barry, you wrote.." Now if anyone has further interest in the Dutch family names
of the Cape, there is a listing on the web. This includes names of Slaves attached
to the various Dutch Farming Families". now i'm sure that you know that the Dutch
Boer would never refer to them as Slaves..but the more quaint and even more 
sinister ( to me ) ' Adopted Servant '  this term was uniform and across the board!.
my source came from a well known ' Verdomde Uitlander '.  cheers xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:53 pm

I would tend to go with Barry. The Bergman family in the Cape and Eastern Cape was pretty significant. In 1906 there was a postmaster in East London called F Bergman.
There was also an F Bergman in Marshalls Horse prior to 1904. Looking at the family names in the Cape, Abraham, Sulleiman etc, I would hazard a guess that the F stands for Fariek

DESCRIPTION BERGMAN PRIVATE CAPE MILITARY POLICE: APPLICATION FOR DISCHARGE
CERTIFICATE FROM MARSHALL'S HORSE.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:36 pm

springbok
I'm open to all suggestions.  I think Sergio has found a Christian name Frederick...Dutch, Swedish, Afrikaaner Cape????
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:44 pm

I have 2 big boxes of Colonial rolls for the SAGS medal, bought these in auction from Spinks a few years back, the rolls came from Kew Gardens I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:05 pm

nice - would be an interesting project to scan thm and get them online!!
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:34 am

Julian
Frederick, not Afrikaans. But do you not detect the similarity between Frederick and Fariek or Fahiek?
Just a possibility, as in 'Berryman/Bergman' with the accent and pronunciation. Im going into the archives next week so will see if I can chase anything up.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:21 am

Awesome . Thanks Springy. This is an interesting medal but more importantly it shows the strength , value and camaraderie of the forum.

I cant thank you alll enough for your input

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:43 am

springbok
Yes, certainly Frederick is not Afrikaans but it's an anglicized form of Fredrik, Frederik, Friedrich from whichever original Germanic language it came. Sergio found the 'Frederick' with the 'Berryman', so if Berryman is not the same chap as Bergman/Bergmann, then it's a dead end anyway!
And, yes, there's a similarity to the Malay names you mentioned, so all is possible; it's all still up for grabs at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Corporal F Bergman Hottentot Levy   Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:50 am

Sergio
Its possible that Bergman fought in the frontier Armed and mounted Police in the Moorosi campaign.
IF Im on the track of the right man he has moved between the various Cape based regiments.
Have to leave this intriguing bit of delving till next week Im afraid, grand children are demanding the attention.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Corporal F. Berryman / Bergman H'tot Levy   Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:49 am

Hi Sergio
I trawled through my Medal Roll CD today and found the same entry as the other forum member . Engaged Gaikas , Galekas , and Morosi Campaign ( hence the 79 Clasp ) still a nice get all the same , a rare one indeed . Well done .
Cheers 90th agree
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