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 HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:50 am

Very interesting read. Puts a lot of answers to questions and a lot of questions to answers.

Fort Northampton was discussed sometime back and was dated as after the Zulu War, 1879. His take is different he states it was built in 1879 and after being abandoned was occupied by RH Addison the Magistrate of Nqutu district until 1894.

Melvill and Coghill were killed by Zibebu who lead the pursuit from iSandlwana, he states that they were shot by Zibebu, not stabbed. Zibebu by the way is the man that lead the Zulu forces at Ulundi and was a chieftain of one of the thirteen subdivisions of Zululand after the war. in his capacity as Chief of native Affairs Harry Lugg had full access to him, and being fluent in Zulu able to talk without an interpreter.

And of real interest
The Tulwana, Indhluyenge and Dhloko regiments didn't take part because they were to late and so went on to attack RD.
The paragraph reads:
The Regiments were drawn up in one long line extended over some hills and ridges North of iSandlwana, and reading from Left to right were in the following order: Uve plus the Ngobamakhosi of whitch it formed part, Mbonambi with a section of the Tulwana, Kandapemvu or mcijo, Nokhenk and Dududu. The tulwana, Ibdhluyenge and Dhloko regiments were in the Neighborhood but, having arrived to late to take more than a minor part in the battle, pushed on to Rorkes drift at the conclusion of the fight.
That is such an important statement, considering its backed up by three sources that fought in the battle, Maphelu Zungu, Mngongomane Kanyile and Dukuza Mdhletshe, all from the Ngobamakosi regiment. It starts to explain quite a few issues. And incidently rules out completely the finding of the Impi in the Ngwebini valley. Score 1 to point X for Ron and Peter.

Some interesting points to look at for sure.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:45 am

Puts a lot of answers to questions and a lot of questions to answers

But of course, this is just another mans version. which of course may or not be correct!!!!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:55 am

Your quite right..........partially
Looking at the man, his anticendants, background etc I would have no reason to doubt him at all. In particular when he can provide source references. the interesting thing about the book is that it was requested by The executive Committee of the Provincial Council of Natal. and was intended to document the history of natal. It isn't a Zulu War by any stretch of the imagination. Harry Lugg was extremely well connected and respected by the Zulu population. It was because of this respect that he managed to find the Long Lost grave of Dingane.
So yeah over all I would tend to believe him, no axe to grind there at all.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:43 pm

Springbok can't find anything on this chap Zibebu being at Isandlwana. Do you have further information. How do you suppose Lugg found out he shot Melville and Coghill.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:21 am

I was given a copy of this book in the early 1950's and, like me, it is showing its age. It kindled my life-long interest in the history of Natal. While no-one is infallible, I would trust H C Lugg over many others who have written on this subject.

Brett
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:33 am

Morning Impi
Zibebu ( Zibhehu ) ka Maphita. He was in charge of the scouts that Lt Browne brushed with on the movements of the impi to ngwebini, 21st Jan. He then commanded the reserves at iSandlwana that chased the fugitives. Later on he commanded a section of the army at Ulundi.
Hes mentioned in pretty well all the serious works, from the Stuart Archives through to Ian Knight.
Lugg was very much involved in the history of natal and of the Zulus. In his position he spent a lot of time with the various, 13 in all, chieftains so recorded a lot of their conversations. Its as a result of these informal meetings he managed to locate clues to the grave of Dingan. So a pretty serious historical figure. Of course we will never know if Zibebu himself was telling the truth but considering that in the early 30s the wars weren't really that significant or regarded with the reverence of today theres no real reason to suspect it. It could very easily have been just an off the cuff remark that wasn't considered important.
Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:37 am

Hi Brett
Your point about the fallibility of HC is shared. The point Ive been trying to make is that in that time frame the 'small' issues really were not considered as important as they are today, so no real emphasis placed on them. And its that really that convinces me of the veracity of the book.
Ive just managed to get hold of a copy, after a long long search and Im willing to bet it cost a tad more than your copy. No

Very Happy Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:33 am

I must raise a couple of queries:
It's not a question of believing Lugg.  It's a question believing Zibebu or rather of Zibebu's memory being correct.  How would Zibebu have known who Melvill and Coghill were?  They were one redcoat and a bluecoat on the river bank - two among several.  They had no distinguishing features.  They'd lost the flag by this point.
Since Zibebu led the pursuit, he would know that the the iDluyengwe took part in that pursuit (several warriors' accounts are recorded) and did not "not take part and so went on to RD".
I have others but answers to these points first would be appreciated.

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:13 am

Julian
I cant really give an answer to your points other than quoting from the book itself.
As I posted earlier, the book isn't a war book but more a listing of historical sites and people.

'Zibebu crossed the river then turned back, leaving his Ndhluyengwe regiment to attack Rorkes Drift.'
Possible a memory aid to Zibebu (certainly the killing of the two soldiers in Natal would be a memorable occasion) would have been that two soldiers were pursued for some distance before being killed. I believe that they were the only two to die that far from the river. And although it has been accepted that locals did the deed there is a reference from Wassall I think about, 'the curious way the Zulus used their elbows to cross the water.' Davies also commented on Zulus making it to the Natal bank. So the possibility is there.
There is in addition to the article on Fugitives Drift a full chapter on Zibebu and contains a surprising amount of information on his life, he was instrumental in advising the King not to go to war with the British, was regarded as one of the best Zulu generals of his time, plus plus. Quoted sources are EN Braatveld, Zungu, Kanyile, Mdhletshe, Chief Msutu Ngobese and two bracketed. (M & S 138 and 159) Mack and Shad? And (WJC 20).
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90th

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PostSubject: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand    Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Springy
Not wishing to rain on the parade but when I walked up to where M & C met their end back in April this year , I was more than surprised by the four cairns or so which I passed , they were not far from the resting place of M & C ( Less than 100 metres the first , and the last possibly only 30 metres ! , therefore there were others it seems , who also got that far before being overcome . I seem to remember Zibhebu fell among the rocks on the Natal side of the river and did some damage to his hand , enough to make him stop his individual advance , and go back the way he had came , not sure if he broke a finger , or dislocated one or more fingers ? , either way , he turned back , if I recall correctly . You need to study mo
Cheers 90th Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:14 pm

Ditto. Inconsistencies aside, it becomes very difficult at this distance in time to assess the reliability/veracity/accuracy of the source especially when it was made some long time after the event itself. I note that it would have been made AFTER the marked grave had been created for M&C and therefore, just like some British soldiers who had a tendency to overplay their role in events, there is the possibility that Zibebu, seeing the reverence paid to their resting place, would want a slice of the fame with an 'I-was-there-at-M&C's end story'. I can't say because more research needs to be done but it IS a very INTERESTING story; I just can't assess its relevance yet.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:01 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Springy
Not wishing to rain on the parade but when I walked up to where M & C met their end back in April this year , I was more than surprised by the four cairns or so which I passed , they were not far from the resting place of M & C ( Less than 100 metres the first , and the last possibly only 30 metres ! , therefore there were others it seems , who also got that far before being overcome . Cheers 90th Salute

Bonjour 90 th

From memory, there are (at least) two others thesis for these cairns not far from the resting place of Melvill and Coghill:
-Others soldiers who met their death here (Report from Lt Hillier NNC / Thesis on Sergent COOPER 1/24th, a relative of Ian Knight , dubious for him);
-The "old" grave of Melvill and Coghill.

Cheers.

frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:07 pm

I only offer a plausible explanation. Im pretty sure that if I had swam the river ran up a hill and shot a couple of soldiers I would remember the occasion.
Second point to this is again we are examining the story within a background of a present highly discussed and emotive topic. Way back then, late 30,s early 40's the whole story was virtually forgotten. There was no interest in the history except for people of the ilk of SB and David Rattrays Dad. In saying that, what was then the attraction of " I was there".
The additional 6 cairns have been discussed at length, sorry mate not a clue where to find it, by Ken Gillings. If they were indeed soldiers/Colonial men there is virtually no mention of it. Certainly not from Black, Harford etc.
And I can safely stand by my comment: 'They are the farthest from the river', Very Happy the isivane are all below and closer to the river Salute Forty years ago there weren't that many.
Julian your correlation of the timing relative to the marking of the Grave. Don't forget that Zibebu spent most of his time in exile at distant Eschowe, only returning to his territory of even more distant Nongoma infrequently. until his death in 1905. So would he be likely to know, or even care about the monument. Potty Potgeiter certainly didn't care and it was on his land, arguably it was he who blew it up. The new more imposing monument is of a much later vintage.
Im not really convinced either way, certainly not enough to regard it as gospel, BUT, there are so many other points in the book that are true and verifiable.
Very interesting book, one of the best Ive read in quite a while.

There are two other books that may shed light on the subject, but after long long searches I still cant locate them. RCA Samuelson-Long long Ago and JY Gibsons Story of the Zulu. Both are refered to by HC in 'Life Under a Zulu Shield.'

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:55 pm

I have them, they don't. xhosa
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:04 pm

Springy
I have both and there's nothing there.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:05 pm

Les have a look to see when Lugg met with him, I think it was late 80s

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:09 pm

Xhosa
apologies. In my hurry to check Samuelson etc , I overlooked your post. I also have the Lugg book and evidently in the past did not ascribe much credence to it or else I would've fixed it in my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:13 pm

yeah similar to  Smail's work's, interesting though.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:10 am

springbok
On another thread you posited the notion and tried to provide evidence for the southward movement of the reserve east of Conical Koppie and then westwards over Stony Koppie to attack the fugitives. If Lugg is correct in his rendering of Zibhebhu's account (and Zibhebhu was with the inDluyengwe and therefore with the reserve) then Zibhebhu firmly places the reserve at the far end of the right horn and most definitely coming down west of Isandhlwana to attack the fugitives.
The one statement contradicts the other. If Zibhebhu is wrong about where his regiment was in Lugg's statement, then he could be wrong about M&C and many other things too. If he is right, then the reserve did not sweep down behind the left horn: Hamilton-Browne was seeing things and the placement of the uNdi and uDhlokho on the Durnford Papers' maps is incorrect.
Just a thought but obviously we can't have it both ways. A case of Schrodinger's cat!
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:41 am

Interesting isn't it.
Trying to take a different tac with his story though, he doesn't specifically call the Indhluyengwe part of the reserve. What he does say is they arrived late and took very little part. I know Im possibly splitting hairs.
But of the top of my head, or as 90th says, through my backside. The three regiments he mentions in arriving late, we don't really know how late, but shoot this one down.

The three regiments were prevented from getting to the bivouac because of Dartnells presence so left isiphezi early morning, instead of branching to the right to the Ngwebini stream they carried on down the Quabe, frightened the hell out of Barker then crossed behind ithusi and where seen by Pope et al. They branched of at the Knoll where the NNC had a chat with them then went of to the Tarantala hills and laid up. From the Tarantala/ Ngedla area the Fugitives trail over Mpethe is very visible and its the short leg of the triangle to intercept the fugitives at the drift, coming in from the North, hitting the drift above what is now known as Smith Dorriens pool, that forces the fugitives down towards the rapids.
Long story I know, but what if those three regiments weren't actually the reserve? What is the reserve was already down on the plain and spotted by the various people we mentioned earlier in the thread, Brown etc.
A case could be made for it all really, possibly fanciful, but still possible. The Zulu eye witnesses having seen/ heard of those regiments laying up could have assumed they were the reserve?
As a further thought the fact that the reserve has now been taken out of the action and also a further three regiments, potentially that would really have weakened the army and could have resulted in their reluctance to charge the line until it retreated and broke.
I know Im about to get ripped apart but I do enjoy trying to do jigsaw puzzles without the box and pieces.

Have at it.............. (


Last edited by springbok9 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:16 am

Julian looking again at the Lugg line up its actually surprisingly accurate and in agreement with the Durnford papers. But to see it you should be standing behind the line looking South towards iSandlwana, not as we are accustomed to naming from the South looking North. Does that make sense?
Second point is that these placements don't come from Zibebu, but from the three other sources I quoted in the opening post.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:42 pm

How long after the event did Zibebu recall his memories.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:50 pm

Hi Chard
Lugg met him between 1895 and his death in 1902 The actual book was commissioned around 1932 and published 1940. Theres no record of his meetings with his other sources save and except one of them worked with him. Im still trying to reverse engineer the whole process.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:34 pm

springbok/chard
The book was published in 1949, methinks.
springbok
Your fanciful theory...whoa boy whoa...! You've invented a whole series of movements for them including having toast and marmalade for breakfast (almost). At any university reading you'd be ripped apart on any number of levels. Evidence. Evidence. Evidence. AND there are many other Zulu accounts which DO say that they were the reserve.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:19 pm

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:23 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
springbok/chard
The book was published in 1949, methinks.
springbok
Your fanciful theory...whoa boy whoa...!  You've invented a whole series of movements for them including having toast and marmalade for breakfast (almost).  At any university reading you'd be ripped apart on any number of levels.  Evidence.  Evidence.  Evidence.  AND there are many other Zulu accounts which DO say that they were the reserve.

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:24 pm

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:51 pm

Thought someone might have mentioned Trooper
Lugg of RD in connection with this.         xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:58 pm

Julian
Sorry Im trying to type and control laughter at the same time.
Ahem
I did up front say it was a flight of fantasy, and lets face it if Allcock and Brown didn't think the same way we would still be traveling by steamer. Not that that would be such a terrible thing.
Its a hypothesis under construction is probably a polite way to describe it, and sure I have no doubt that there are 'smallish' errors there. But I remember solving Rubbicks Cube the first time by closing my eyes and visualising it, seriously I did.
So fanciful as it is there are a number of points that it fits and a number of questions it answers, so theory it is. By the way Im pretty sure that the eminent Mr Jackson had similar thoughts of the reserve being on the plain not in the hills.

Really look forward to carrying on this debate.



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:05 pm

Les an interesting point in the book when HC was describing Fugitives Drift and Coghill he mentions Harry being present when Coghill hurt his knee.
Abject grovelling and abasment for getting the date of publication wrong. I spend a couple of days a week away from my home/study/library and have to rely on memory.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:17 pm

Penltimate post
Funnily enough I visited the eminent Mr Jackson last month and discussed with him that very point.  He DID have a theory that that part of the uNdi which was with the left horn came over Stony Koppie and on to the Fugitives' Trail - but NOT that the whole of the reserve came down to the east of Conical Koppie.  Anyway I put it to him and watched his eyes glaze over and fix on a distant point (Isipezi?) - the forefinger went up to tapping his lower lip and he was away with the fairies.
Eventually he asked me to leave him with the 'theory' and he would consider it and get back to me.  He normally likes to put his thoughts on paper and so writes to me.  When he does, I'll let you know what he thinks.
In the meantime, have fun with your latest connected 'hypothesis under construction' but remember, if it is to fly, it must have some pretty solid wings, and if it isn't to belly-flop it must have a pair of wheels to run along on.
It means looking again at ALL the surviving Zulu accounts from those three regiments and ALL other Zulu accounts to see what they have to say about the reserve - that's a good six weeks' work if you're to do it properly (that's 55 in total).
And, seriously, if I can help with any of it in terms of research or as a sounding-board I'd be pleased to lend a hand.

Ultimate post
Do you mean the original injury when Daly threw an assegai and it grazed his leg or the chicken-chasing episode?
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:12 pm

The chicken chasing episode.
Curious isn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:22 pm

Frank, my biggest problem has always been that i shoot from the lip!
i really should study more..but blagging it for me, is much more fun!
till i get called out..then its a scurry to the knowledge.. Wink  xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:25 pm

Great to hear Mr J has mended.. not that many left!.
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90th

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PostSubject: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand    Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:15 pm

Hi Springy
Not sure if you saw it or not , but YMOB has posted that the Cairns near M & C , do or did contain a soldier , or soldiers , Lt Hillier NNC apparently states so in his report . Hopefully ymob or someone else ( Les ) may post the Hillier account before I get home from work ? Shocked You need to study mo
cheers 90th Salute Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:05 am

Morning 90th
I will only be back home next week so hopefully some one will post it before then.

Cheers Mate
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:52 am

90th wrote:
Hi Springy
Not sure if you saw it or not , but YMOB has posted that the Cairns near M & C , do or  did contain a soldier , or soldiers , Lt Hillier NNC apparently states so in his report . Hopefully ymob or someone else ( Les ) may post the Hillier account before I get home from work ? Shocked You need to study mo
cheers 90th Salute Merry Christmas

Bonjour mon ami,

From “Isandlwana: How the Zulus humbled the British Empire”, by Adrian GREAVES p.97-98
“Curiously, local rumours have long persisted that four bodies were found at the spot where Coghill and Melvill died.
Lt HILLIER of the NNC throws more light on the subject as he was present [with BLACK, HARBER, HARFORD…] when the bodies were discovered several days later.
His unabridged account of what he saw, published in the press on 28 February [“Telegraph and Eastern Province Standard”, 28 February 1879”], makes interesting reading:
“You will see my name in General Orders as one of those that recovered the colors (sic) of the 1-24th Regiment, Major BLACK, of the 2_24th Regiment came and asked for volunteers to go and search for the colors of the 1-24th Regiment, as they were known to be lost in a dangerous part of the Drift. It was thought that there might be a fight, so 20 men volunteered. Well armed, we rode out and, crossing over the hill overlooking the Drift, we came across the bodies of poor Lieuts MELVILL and CIGHILL; they lay behind the bodies of two soldiers, where they had made a stand. COGHILL was quite naked except for his boots and a gold ring on his finger, which Captain PARR took off. Poor MELVILL had everything on, but was much disfigured. We buried them and read the service over them”.

GREAVES wrote: suggests that one of the bodies was Sergeant COOPER of the 1/24th. : “It’s possible that COOPER could have been one the two soldiers who made a stand with Melvill and Coghill. Only a DNA analysis will provide the defensive answer”. (p.99)
There is a note p.157 (n°6): “Without hesitation I would say that on the balance of probability, he (COOPER) was the soldier – or one the two soldiers – who made a stand with Melvill and Coghill”. Personal letter to the author, October 2010 from Ron Lock

Personally, I am very suspicious about this thesis and the work of this author….

On the same subject, you can read:
-“Sergeant 1313 Thomas COOPER, F Company, 1St Battalion, 24 th Regiment killed in action at Isandlwana or a Rorke’s Drift casualty?” by Mark MAPLESDEN (
-“Questions to Ian Knight” on this forum: “Lt Hillier, NNC, is recorded as noting that Melvill’s and COGHILL’s bodies…”

Cheers
Frédéric

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:03 am

As Ymob points out:
Ian Knights take

Lt Hillier, NNC, is recorded as noting that Melvill's and Coghill's bodies ‘lay behind the bodies of two soldiers, where they had made a stand’. Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill in Zulu Victory thinks that the two soldiers may well have been Imperial Mounted Infantry. Adrian Greaves (Isandlwana: How the Zulus Humbled The British Empire) and Mark Maplesden (article: Sergt 1313 T. Cooper, F Co, 1/24th, KIA at Isandlwana or a Rorke's Drift Casualty?) suspect that one of them was Sergeant Cooper, 24th ( a relative of yours, I believe). What do you think?

It doesn’t work for me, I’m afraid. The presence of extra bodies around Melvill and Coghill shifts a bit like a mirage - some reports mention them, others don’t, usually depending on how dramatic they want to make the scene - but in fact those who describe finding the bodies either officially or in the greatest detail (Black, Harford) make no mention of other bodies nearby, and strongly suggest Melvill and Coghill were alone. I think Melvill and Coghill were among the last to try to get away from Sothondose’s (Fugitives’) Drift - the British officers who survived generally seem in any case to have been at the tail end of the straggling line of survivors, and remember Coghill had an injured knee, and both men must have been exhausted. I have walked the fugitives’ trail many, many times, and I can assure you the walk up from the river to Melvill and Coghill’s grave is a killer, especially after crossing the river! One reason I think they were killed, in fact - whether you believe they were killed by Zulus who had crossed over, or by Africans on the Natal bank - was that they easy prey, the last of the stragglers. Adding two men with them would have altered the whole dynamic of the incident - two more men might have helped them away quicker, and they would have been a less easy target, and so might have escaped an attack in any case. Higginson doesn’t mention any other men with them - whatever our reservations about his account - but neither does Brickhill, who saw Melvill struggling to get up onto the Natal bank. I’m tempted to suggest that if there had been five of them rather than three, Higginson might have been more inclined to stay with Melvill and Coghill, since he would have been much safer than going off on his own! So I don’t believe there were any others killed with them. Certainly there were others killed on the Natal bank - we know that the civilian Dubois was killed after crossing by shots fired from the Zulu bank - so perhaps the tale of extra bodies just grew with the telling. I know that today there are two cairns just below Melvill and Coghill’s monument, and this has perhaps added to the confusion - however, it is worth remembering that Melvill’s and Coghill’s bodies were lying a few yards apart when first found, and covered with stones - they were later exhumed and re-interred at the foot of the large rock a few yards away where they remain today. I think those two cairns were their original graves. It’s worth noting that neither contemporary newspaper drawings - based on Harford’s sketches - nor later reports of the re-burial mention other bodies in close proximity. Remember too that some early reports said they were surrounded by a ring of dead Zulus - and that seems to have been wishful thinking too!
Which of course doesn’t leave much scope for Sgt. Thomas Cooper (yes, he is a distant relative of mine) to be one of them! But I’m sceptical of this in any case. It is based on the fact that Cooper’s family noted his place of death as Rorke’s Drift, rather than iSandlwana, on his memorial card. But Cooper wasn’t IMI, he was 1/24th, an infantryman - we don’t even know if he could ride a horse! For him to have been found near Melvill and Coghill would require us to believe he left his company - under what circumstances? - found a rider-less horse, rode it sufficiently well to escape across very difficult country and through a swollen river, only to rally to Melvill and Coghill at the very end. To my mind, it is easier to suggest that his family just made a mistake on the memorial card - after all, some of the first reports of iSandlwana in the press described the battle as taking place ‘near Rorke’s Drift’. With a lot of confusion about what iSandlwana was actually called, I think they just went for an easier option!
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:05 am

George Smith doesn't mention performing rites on anyone but M and C, I do remember that he does make some reference to bodies down by the river. Cant recall the circumstance though.

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:08 am

Xhosa
Mr J has not mended yet - he is still in his nursing home.  I visited him there.  His body is frail but his mind is razor sharp when it comes to the AZW.  His greatest annoyance is that he doesn't have access to all his notes and books at home.
springbok
The other soldiers buried near M&C could have arrived at the crossing earlier or later...they don't have to have been there at the same time as M&C.
Hillier's report is as stated - there is no reason for him to have invented the existence of the two soldiers bodies.
So, Lugg witnessed the chicken incident BEFORE he became ill and was admitted to RD hospital.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:41 am

Julian
But the corpses would have been there at the same time, as you say no reason to doubt Hillier though. Just rather bad of Smith etc not to have made mention and coming back to 90ths original point that started things, the 6 plus cairns in the immediate area.
I would still be inclined to believe that bodies were brought up from the flood plain to 'dry land' for burial. And Ian confirms my earlier contention about more cairns appearing over the years, it could be that lungili was correct in putting them down to an over zealous painter splashing paint on piles of rocks.
The chicken incident occurred when, the 20th? And Lugg was injured crossing the Mzinyathi, a horse fell on him I think? So that had to have been late on the 20th or 21st.
I know how david feels I spend a few days a month out of study and feel really aggrieved that I cant get access to things.

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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:55 am

Springy
I have the exact date of Coghill's accident - I'll dig it out from my notes.
Yes, of course, bodies could have been moved up to dry land, hadn't thought of that...though Hillier's report doesn't imply that that was done. Read it again, it's quite clear... I still prefer 2 IMI arriving later or earlier and being killed there
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:08 am

springy
It was the evening of the 20th when Coghill hurt his knee when coming back with Chelmsford's reconnaissance party.  That would mean that Lugg would have been part of the NMP escort and that Lugg must have hurt himself on the 21st - but in the Buffalo River???  What was he doing back there?  Taking a message?  There would certainly be no patrols in that direction.  Does he say what he was doing when it happened?


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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:39 am

Im sure I recall Lugg was crossing the mzinyathi, most probably on his way to RD when the horse fell on him damaging his knee. So as you say the 21st, cant do to much reading on it for a few days but maybe some one on the forum could assist.
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:05 pm

An interesting take on Harry.
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PostSubject: Definetely.   Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:49 am

Hi All,
The truth, really to be know Henry was bucked of his horse and the fall causing a damaging knee injury. This happened a day or two before deploying into Helpmekaar, preapring for big one.  However that fall was emebarrrasing so he hid the fact, ( not surprising that Mansel was the OC) However  the injur was debiliating him so gave out story of the fall in the  Buffalo and in order to get treatment  


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barry
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:25 am

Barry
Can I ask you the source?
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:28 am

Barry
Trying to see how that would tie up with him being at the kraal when Coghill was injured on the 20th.

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PostSubject: Lugg and Clarke   Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:44 am

Hi Springbok,
I will shortly relay a verbatum statement by Clarke who was him on that day, and for many any  others too. They  remained family friends for their lifertimes  .



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Barry
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PostSubject: Re: HC Lugg Historic Natal and Zululand   Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:21 pm

Brilliant, thanks Barry. That should answer Julians question as well.

Cheers
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