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 Durnford was he capable. 3

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Dave

Dave


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Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySun Nov 03, 2013 8:46 pm

Extract from Brickhill's statement
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

He claims these Zulu's made off along with the other refugee's and into Natal. So did they hang around until the Battle had started.

For all we know, it could have been these that killed M&C.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySun Nov 03, 2013 8:51 pm

Dave wrote:
For all we know, it could have been these that killed M&C.
Yes, no doubt using their bare hands despite everything else that was going on around them...
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Dave

Dave


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySun Nov 03, 2013 9:01 pm

We have no way of knowing where they went when they left the camp? They gave up their fire arms, no mention of Spears and other weapons they normally carried, which would have been needed for everyday life hunting ect. M&C wasn't shot!
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 9:48 pm

What evidence is there that shows Lord Chelmsford as being part of the so called conspiracy.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 9:49 pm

Not much !
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 9:55 pm

After all, it was Cealock who stated before and at the COE that it was he, who ordered Durnford to take command of the camp.

 
Crealock wrote:
Statement of Lieutenant-Colonel J. North Crealock, Acting Military Secretary.
1. Soon after 2 A.M. on the 22nd January I received instructions from the Lieutenant-General to send a written order to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., commanding No. 2 Column, to the following effect (I copied it in my note-book which was afterwards lost): " Move up to Sandhlwana Camp at once with all your mounted men and Rocket Battery—take command of it. I am accompanying Colonel Glyn, who is moving off at once to attack Matyana and a Zulu force
said to be 12 or 14 miles off, and at present watched by Natal Police, Volunteers, and Natal Native Contingent. Colonel Glyn takes with him 2-24th Regiment, 4 guns R.A., and Mounted  Infantry."

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 10:06 pm

John, what Crealock wrote to Dunford, wasn't what he was told to write. Read Clery statement!
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 10:16 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
John, what Crealock wrote to Dunford, wasn't what he was told to write. Read Clery statement!
Clery wrote:
The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I.
These are the words Crealock should have dispatched to Durnford!

"Bring his force to strengthen the camp"
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyThu Nov 07, 2013 10:21 pm

John wrote:
Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
John, what Crealock wrote to Dunford, wasn't what he was told to write. Read Clery statement!
Clery wrote:
The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I.
These are the words Crealock should have dispatched to


Durnford!

Bring his force to strengthen the camp"
It was Crealock, who implicated Lord Chemsford. 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 2   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 12:01 am

John wrote:
What evidence is there that shows Lord Chelmsford as being part of the so called conspiracy.
John.

You will get all the information about this in 'Zulu Victory' by Lock and Quantrill, just go to 'Part Three The Cover-up' p233.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 7:18 am

CTSG
I would agree that the order error came from Crealock not conferring the message that Clery was told to give. I think he knew he had made an error therefore kept the actual words of the order quite and allowed Durnford to take the blame.
Loyal to Chelmsford as he was that the insanely uncomfortable carriage ride from Helpmakaar to PMB with the two of them together was probably the first time the could confer. But saying that, they never knew if those original orders were to found quickly or even that Crealocks order book would be discovered on the field.
So IF they where setting out to deliberately lie it was with one hell of risk that they would be quickly found out. Would they have taken that sort of risk?
Did Crealock tell Chelmsford about the wording? Would he have really remembered it?

Far to many grey areas to make a decision.




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Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 3:13 pm

" One message only is mentioned by the General
or his Military secretary as having been received
from the camp. but an Officer ( of rank ) who
had seen them, says that five or six messages
were received during the day by the General or
his Staff; and he says distinctly that the messages
were in the possession of Lieut-Colonel Crealock".
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 3:57 pm

Les, between them, Crealock, Chelmsford, Clery (along with others), tried to cover their own backsides, they also attempted to clear LC of any responsibility and put the blame elsewhere, and they found a perfect scapegoat in the dead Col Durnford, after all, he couldn't say anything could he?
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 4:17 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Les, between them, Crealock, Chelmsford, Clery (along with others), tried to cover their own backsides, they also attempted to clear LC of any responsibility and put the blame elsewhere, and they found a perfect scapegoat in the dead Col Durnford, after all, he couldn't say anything could he?
"Cover up" aside, their recollection of events was, at a minimum, very convenient to protecting their collective reputations. If we knew for certain what words were passed during the carriage ride Chelmsford shared with Crealock, we might be able to characterize it as collusion beyond dispute. We don't so, who knows, maybe all they talked about was the lousy weather? But one tends to doubt that under the circumstances...
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Guest
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Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 4:51 pm

martin Salute  bang on mate. we
have no need to speculate about a
conversation in a carraige scratch 
can we not take it as read that LC
spent most of it worrying about the
re action in Natal and London and
that Crealock was reassuring and
mollifying the shattered Chelmsford.
saying something along the lines of,
" my lord, you must leave everything
to me, you left over a thousand men
there, somebody must be a fault,now
who was senior there, ah yes that
colonial officer of engineer's, well my
Lord this puts an entirely different
light on things, might i suggest"........

Look at the reaction. a court of inquiry..
that did'nt inquire. the C in C ( Cambridge )
was all over his Lordships piecemeal
defence of his action's, Dizzy would not
have him in his house. he never commanded
again..read french's farcical fred by matt.
finally if some thing looks like a fish and
smell's and taste's like one..its a fish right.
cover up..yes and not very subtle either.
Crealock, Clery, Gossett, Harness?, H.M.
Queen Victoria ( by collusion ). xhosa
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kopie




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 5:11 pm

springbok9 wrote:
, they never knew if those original orders were to found quickly or even that Crealocks order book would be discovered on the field.
So IF they where setting out to deliberately lie it was with one hell of risk that they would be quickly found out.
Not really Springbok, no.
The best liars tell the best lies and these lies are VERY close to the truth.
Usually, just one word or two out, which can easily be explained away as a minor memory lapse, or word that could be interpreted in a number of ways - easy to explain away in the event of being challenged or caught.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 5:20 pm

Hi Guys
Sometimes fun to play Devils Advocate.

Cheers

PS Don't read to much into 'Zulu Victory'. It aint the bible first readings think it is.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 9:40 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Les, between them, Crealock, Chelmsford, Clery (along with others), tried to cover their own backsides, they also attempted to clear LC of any responsibility and put the blame elsewhere, and they found a perfect scapegoat in the dead Col Durnford, after all, he couldn't say anything could he?
Martin, you appear to have left out Pulleine! What you fail to mentioned is that he could not speak up, he was as dead as Durnford. I bet he would have had something to say about your hero "Durnford" if he had survived.

It was Durnford's actions that forced Pulleine to send his men far from the camp!

If you want to point the finger, point it at Crealock. He was the one, who failed to sent,the original order. It was he who complicated the issue!  

Durnford took command, of the camp. He was the senior officer present that day. Regardless of what orders were issued or the handing back of command, he should have instigated a course if action for the benefit of the men and the stores withing the camp. He failed as a commander and Bushmans pass, and again at Isandlwana.

Don't take away Durnford's well earned title, Scapegoat! He earned it!
The only honour he bestowed upon the men who sleep on the Battlefield of Isandlwana, was not being buried among those he sent to thier graves.

agree
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 9:54 pm

Durford took command, of the camp. He was the senior officer present that day. Regardless of what orders were issued, he should have instigated a course if action for the benefit of the men and the stores withing the camp. He failed as a commander and Bushmans pass, and again at Isandlwana.

Don't take away Durnford's well earned title, Scapegoat! He earned it!
The only honour he bestowed upon the men who sleep on the Battlefield of Isandlwana, was not being buried among those he sent to thier graves.

hiya ctsg.. in my opinion.
1 Durnford did not take command.
2. He certainly did not fail at the BRP.
3. He had no say about his final
resting place's..he was dead.
4. Durnford, was not a hero.just a man trying
to do his job to the best of his ability.he did
not know what was literally around the corner,
nobody did, they soon found out.
cheers xhosa
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:04 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Durford took command, of the camp. He was the senior officer present that day. Regardless of what orders were issued, he should have instigated a course if action for the benefit of the men and the stores withing the camp. He failed as a commander and Bushmans pass, and again at Isandlwana.

Don't take away Durnford's well earned title, Scapegoat! He earned it!
The only honour he bestowed upon the men who sleep on the Battlefield of Isandlwana, was not being buried among those he sent to thier graves.

hiya ctsg.. in my opinion.
1 Durnford did not take command.
2. He certainly did not fail at the BRP.
3. He had no say about his final
resting place's..he was dead.
4. Durnford, was not a hero.just a man trying
to do his job to the best of his ability.he did
not know what was literally around the corner,
nobody did, they soon found out.
                                       cheers xhosa

Hi Les.
1) Well there is certainly enough witnesses to say he did take command!

2) BRP?

3) The men at Who died at Isandlwana had no say in their final resting place.

4) He was a hero to Martin and the Colenso's. It appears that he wasn't that good a doing his job. He is credited with being very wise in the ways of the Zulu, yet he was happy to fight them in the open, dragging a RB behind him.

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:12 pm

So, are you saying that Durnford should have done in just over an hour what LC should but didn't do in 2 days?
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:29 pm

There is also documented evidence that he told Pulleine that he was not going to stay at the camp, and that he was not going to take over Pulleine's command of it, however, with him being the senior officer when he arrived, no doubt others would assume that he would take command whilst he was there, and therefor any recommendations that he offered could possibly have been taken as orders. If he took command, then why did he ASK Pulleine for the loan of two companies, if he had taken command he would have ordered it, wouldn't he?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:33 pm

Check you timings Martin.

Chard RE. Bromhead 24th. Rorkes Drift. Fortifications, Little time, Success, repelled, Lived to fight another day.? 

Worked in unison. Yes! 
Deployed the men correctly Yes!
Setup ammo stations Yes! 
Held the position for nearly 15 hours Yes! 


Durnford RE

Arrived at camp Yes!
Left his ammuntion waggons behind. Yes!
Took Command Yes!
Had Breakfast Yes! 
Wanted to attack the Zulu Yes! 
Forced Pulleine to deploy men far from camp Yes!
Handed back command Yes! 
Wanted to take Two Compaines of the 24th, knowing Pullienes orders were to defend the camp Yes!
Weaken the camp further by leaving on his supposed crusade Yes! 
Dragged the RB to their deaths Yes! 
Ran out of ammuntion during his fall back. Yes!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
There is also documented evidence that he told Pulleine that he was not going to stay at the camp, and that he was not going to take over Pulleine's command of it, however, with him being the senior officer when he arrived, no doubt others would assume that he would take command whilst he was there, and therefor any recommendations that he offered could possibly have been taken as orders. If he took command, then why did he ASK Pulleine for the loan of two companies, if he had taken command he would have ordered it, wouldn't he?
True! But why take command, if he had no intention of interfering with Pulleines command. I'm telling yer, he wasnt right in the head on that day, perhaps he was having a nervous breakdown?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:55 pm

ctsg nice to see you having fun Very Happy 


Hi Les.
1) Well there is certainly enough witnesses to say he did take command! ( no. name them.)

2) BRP? ( he behaved with bravery and honour from start to finish. especially in the aftermath.)

3) The men at Who died at Isandlwana had no say in their final resting place. ( err yeah. )

4) He was a hero to Martin and the Colenso's. It appears that he wasn't that good a doing his job. He is credited with being very wise in the ways of the Zulu, yet he was happy to fight them in the open, dragging a RB behind him. ( very wise in the ways of the Zulu ) you have something to say
about his close affinity to the Hlubi. then please expand, i would like your opinion. xhosa

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 10:59 pm

What?
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 2   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:03 pm

CTSG.
There is a bit of difference between RD preparations and Isandlwana ! . Isandlwana camp never thought for a minute they'd be attacked by 25,000 plus , LC didnt think it would be attacked either for that matter ! . It was a staging point , most of the wagons were to go back to RD . RD KNEW they were to be attacked as Isandlwana proved that ! . They had a much smaller area to prepare and the ground was much better suited , natural slopes favouring the defenders , a 4ft high ledge which served as a natural barrier and ran for a reasonable distance which certainly saved the Garrison in no small way . The two cant really be compared .
Cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:18 pm

Rubbish RD only knew about it when Ardendroff or the other bloke, brought the news. Nothing had been done up to that point. 

Those at Isandlwana would have had a much smaller area to defend, if the troops had been, deployed correctly? 

Don't compaired the locations, compaired the officers and thier actions.  That was the topic!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:23 pm

CTSG. I see your handling this very well on your own. agree So I will bid you good night.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:30 pm

Ah! Yes I do seem to be batting them away quite nicely. You get your head down!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:32 pm

Comparing RD with iSandlwana is a bit of a red herring. They knew what was coming at RD and through the good sense of Dalton they prepared for it. Chelmsford ignored his own orders regarding laagering even though he had the best part of two days to at least organise some sort of defences. He did not organise his patrols good enough, he even went out on some of the patrols but still didn't recognise the vulnerability of the situation of the camp, and his patrols did not discover the many thousands of zulu's just waiting for their opportunity to attack the camp. He then splits his force and goes off on a wild goose chase to support Dartnell, with the thought that he will confront the main impi and bring it to battle, and he does this without getting some definite proof of evidence that the main impi is there. Pulleine is getting reports from the early hours that there is zulu activity around the camp area, he does next to nothing about it for hours, then Durnford arrives and sees that there is something afoot. He sends out scouts and patrols to try to find out better information, he was only there for around an hour, and you think he should have done what Chelmsford had the best part of two days to do, and that what Pulleine had a number of hours to do. He didn't know what size the zulu impi was, they had no warning of an attack about to happen, however, when he got the report of zulu's heading in the direction of LC, he had to act to try to find out what they were up to, just in case they were trying to cut LC off or attack him. If Durnford was such a twit, then why did they rally round him at iSandlwana, and why did they turn out in droves to pay him their last respects at his funeral?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:36 pm

Glyn was in command! And didn't he put up an argument about the state of the camp? Rolling Eyes
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:36 pm

You cant be serious ....are you ? !! . You dont seem to remember , or possibly suffering from a case of selective memory , the troops were set out as per LC's instructions in his booklet which was given to Column commanders and other higher ranking officers ! . Feel free to explain to me and others how Isandlwana is a smaller area to defend than RD ? , enlighten me of your plans to fortify 1,000 men in a smaller area than RD where there was only 250 to start with then finished with 140 odd after the NNC bolted ! . The orders were to defend the camp , you cant do that from way back behind the camp on the side of the mountain ! . You cant have it your ( one ) way , the officers in both camps acted as they saw fit in regard to their orders and the state of the ground . Surely you can see this ?? No 
90th
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:43 pm

Glyn was the commander of the 3rd Column. The only person he moaned too. Was Browne. He could have quite easily reminded Lord Chelmsford of his own standing orders. It was Glyn who convinced Lord Chelmsford to go to Dartnells assistance, thus causing Lord Chelmsford to split his force. Glyn had enough to say to Lord Chelmsford about Dartnell, but nothing about the camp and it's defences !
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:43 pm

impi,later,av a gud kip,well dodged.
Gary,hiya test loser Very Happy  agree with
all that. Les Salute 

ctsg. what? err no. ( you ) what?.
you go bo bo's now with impi?. Very Happy 
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:43 pm

ctsg .
I see your attempts to wind people up , so I'll leave your misinformed / misguided posts on this topic alone after this prompt and somehow courteous reply ! . As for your ridiculous comment re - Glyn , it either proves you have no idea , or the wind up is the priority , I'm hoping it's the latter scratch . Glyn did indeed mention the lack of fortifications etc as did some others , but , as you may have forgotten , this was dismissed by your LC .
90th Salute 
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:46 pm

ctsg .
Sorry , I now think it's the former No . Preposterous ! .... comes to mind with the thinking and terminology of 1879 .
No  No 
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Glyn was the commander of the 3rd Column. The only person he moaned too. Was Browne. He could have quite easily reminded Lord Chelmsford of his own standing orders. It was Glyn who convinced Lord Chelmsford to go to Dartnells assistance, thus causing Lord Chelmsford to split his force. Glyn had enough to say to Lord Chelmsford about Dartnell, but nothing about the camp and it's defences !

no fact in that was correct, ie, the only one, on the face of it is your first assertion,but we know
who really commanded that column.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 08, 2013 11:52 pm

Clery. "i sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn"




Not Lord Chelmsford. 




Anyway your doing you medium bit again! Thinking and terminology of an 1879 soldier No 




Time for bed! 
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Nov 09, 2013 12:12 am

k, dream on,you usually do! you crazy
gang of four..or is it really one. for
petes sake. knock a bit off,leave a bit
on.Very Happy 
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Nov 09, 2013 7:53 am

Ha ha. I never know what your say!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 2:09 pm

" I was talking to some of my best officer's when, ( Lonsdale )
joined us, and his first word's were, ' my god ' Maori, what do
you think of this camp?. i replied, some one is mad! the
Colonial officer's were loud and long in complaint..and Duncome,
( a Captain in Browne's Battalion ) said, Do the staff think we
are going to meet an army of school-girl's, Why in the name of
all thats holy do we not laager?. [ Colonel Glyn ] did not seem to
be in good spirit's, but said nothing about the camp, and on my
remarking it looked very pretty, though rather extended, he looked
very hard at me, shook his head and said..very".

And later back at rorkes drift.. Glyn rather pathetically to LC..

On the 24th of January, Colonel Glyn wrote to Lord Chelmsford:
" The whole of the Native Contingent walked off this morning.
their rifles were taken from them; all the Hospital bearer's then
went, and now the Native Pioneer's are going. i am now left
without any Native's".
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 5:57 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Glyn was the commander of the 3rd Column. The only person he moaned too. Was Browne. He could have quite easily reminded Lord Chelmsford of his own standing orders. It was Glyn who convinced Lord Chelmsford to go to Dartnells assistance, thus causing Lord Chelmsford to split his force. Glyn had enough to say to Lord Chelmsford about Dartnell, but nothing about the camp and it's defences !
If you really believe LC was influenced into making poor decisions by his junior officers, then surely, LC was a very poor and incompetent commander?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 7:40 pm

Glyn was in command of the 3rd colum. Define "Junior"
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 8:35 pm

kopie, allow me,

Glyn was in command of the 3rd colum. Define "Junior" say's impi.

As in not being a baron, knight, gen, ergo..junior. Very Happy 


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 9:03 pm

Doe's this not place Durnford at fault? Is it not possible that Pulleine was just following Durnfords lead when it came to sending the men out of the camp?

"Before starting Colonel Durnford directed a company 1st battalion 24th to occupy the heights fifteen hundred yards to the north of the camp. This was the first fatal error, leading, as it ultimately did, to On the best hearsay authority, these "written instructions" were to the following effect : " You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn ; draw in your line of defence while the force is out, and draw in your infantry outposts accordingly, but keep your cavalry videttes well advanced."

Historical records of the 24th regiment, from its formation, in 1689 Edited by George Paton, Farquhar Glennie [and] William Penn Symons. Published 1892.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 9:55 pm

"Before starting Colonel Durnford directed a company 1st battalion 24th to occupy the heights fifteen hundred yards to the north of the camp. This was the first fatal error, leading, as it ultimately did, to On the best hearsay authority.. On the best hearsay authority?. Ray63  Salute  do
you not detect even a hint if bias in that work?. none of that is actually correct..
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 10:32 pm

Since when has 'hearsay' been prime source authorative evidence  scratch 

You are right Les, the bias against Col Durnford in that work sticks out like a sore thumb.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 11:01 pm

agree  yes Martin it does, but like you and me..
we understand that knowledge is just basicly
remembering stuff! and interpretation, is it
not interesting that the correct answer is
always the correct one! it can not be any-
thing else! some really should study more!
which of course includes me!  Salute 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3   Durnford was he capable. 3 - Page 12 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 11:39 pm

Interpretation is the key word Les. Some people can understand the way things are meant to be taken, while others just have their own idea of what things mean (and to them, their ideas must be the truth), and nothing will then alter them from this because their mind becomes set, even if the truth stood up and gave then a right hook they would still be in denial.
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