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Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
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 Durnford was he capable. 4

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:29 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Could i ask for the source's..    xhosa

Source of what ?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:33 pm

Right, many thanks Julian.

So, S-D did in fact take a snoop at the message, simply assumed what it meant, and then jumped the gun with his comment.


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:36 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Right, many thanks Julian.

So, S-D did in fact take a snoop at the message, simply assumed what it meant, and then jumped the gun with his comment.



Strenthen / reinforce. Same thing isn't it?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:42 pm

The post at 8.11 by Julian. happy new year ctsg. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:45 pm

Maybe, HOWEVER, the message to Col Durnford did NOT contain either of these words, therefor Col Durnford had NOT been ordered to either reinforce nor strengthen the camp. Read Julians post again.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:47 pm

Can I just put my two penneth in here. I fear it re-inforces CTSG's view of things, but i think we might be mistaking what was improper.

I had always understood that what Crealock meant, was not that the content of the order was improper, but that Clery delivering it to Durnford would be. Clery was Glyn's staff officer and not Chelmsford's. So he represented just another column commander. That is why the General said, in response to Crealock's interjection from the next tent, "then let you do it".

Crealock then, in error, misses out the bit about re-inforcing the camp when he writes the order to Durnford.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:02 pm

Right Steve. Plus the fact that Clery was junior to Col Durnford (and Pulleine for that matter), so really should not be giving orders to senior officers. And Crealock also added fuel to the fire by telling Durnford that Bengough should be moving toward LC via the other route, and that Durnford was to move up to the camp, and also that LC would be about 10 miles distant, thus giving the impression to Durnford that the pincer move was about to take place. The only way that Durnford could get to LC to support him with Bengough in the pincer move was via the camp at iSandlwana, that is why Durnford said he would not be staying, as far as he was concerned, he was just on his way through to support LC, because Crealock didn't say anything different.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:08 pm

But NOT take command! its funny how lots of people go
all semantic to uphold their own personal views, so we
have it. not take command, and not even..re-enforce..
just..you will move to camp with all your force.. anything
else is irrelevant. xhosa
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:11 pm

I think we are going around in circles a bit. But the difficulty with Clery giving orders to Pulleine was that he could only really do that if he was acting for Glyn (who seems to have withdrawn from the entire process). At that point Chelmsford conveys nothing to Pulleine. So Clery is in a cleft stick. Early morning, all half asleep, major cock-up occurs. battle is lost at that point.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:19 pm

Yes, it is a bit odd isn't it. LC must have known that Durnford was the senior officer, and that when he arrived at the camp, no matter how long or short he stayed there, he would be the senior officer and therefor would be deemed to be in command. Yet LC sent a message later in the morning addressed to Pulleine, if he had either wanted Durnford to remain in camp or take command, then why did he not address it to Durnford?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:32 pm

Unless Chelmsford, after his spat with Durnford, omitted
him, in his mind in the chain of event's re the order, or
on the other hand thought Durnford's order's were in
keeping with his lordships plan for Durnford and then,
completely forgot to issue fresh order's for him,for when he
returned to camp, the strain and anxiety was that telling
on his lordship.. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:36 pm

rusteze wrote:
I think we are going around in circles a bit. But the difficulty with Clery giving orders to Pulleine was that he could only really do that if he was acting for Glyn (who seems to have withdrawn from the entire process). At that point Chelmsford conveys nothing to Pulleine. So Clery is in a cleft stick. Early morning, all half asleep, major cock-up occurs. battle is lost at that point.

Steve

But whatever Clery said at the COE it was corroborate by Glyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:38 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Unless Chelmsford, after his spat with Durnford, omitted
him, in his mind in the chain of event's re the order, or
on the other hand thought Durnford's order's were in
keeping with his lordships plan for Durnford and then,
completely forgot to issue fresh order's for him,for when he
returned to camp, the strain and anxiety was that telling
on his lordship..                                                  xhosa

Lord Chelmsford, would have certainly had a lot to organise. Perhaps putting to much faith in his staff with regards to the issuing of orders.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:54 pm

I think in many ways you had a perfect storm.

Glyn was too easily overawed by Chelmsford and withdrew into the background, passing Clery on to Chelmsford with the message that sparked the flurry of orders and activity.

We know he had been usurped by Chelmsford and his staff, but he chose a particularly bad juncture at which to disengage. He should have gone to Chelmsford with the message and between them they should have worked out the appropriate dispositions with their staff officers. Those staff officers could then have delivered consistent messages.

What Glyn said at the COI doesn't make up for his non-involvement at a crucial point. Clery did well in the circumstances but he shouldn't have been put in that position.

However, I still don't believe any of this would have changed the final outcome.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:08 pm

The result agreed would have been the same, but that was down to tatical errors by those left in command at Isandlwana. Lord Chelmsford was ten miles away. Moving on!

Clery extract COE

"The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp"

So we can take it, by the above that Lord Chelmsford told Clery what to write.
To bring up his force to strengthen the camp. Not Clery's own words.


Clery then says.
 but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions

He's says "theses instructions". That being the same "strengthen the camp" 

It appears Crealock didn't really know what he wrote, at the COE he says the General ordered Durnford to the camp and take command. We know that's not the case. 

In defense of Lord Chelmsford when he rode out of the camp, as far has he was concerned, he had in his own words told Crealock to write to Colonel Durnford, to bring his force to strengthen the camp"
not move to the camp
.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:13 pm

Steve, do you not believe that at the coi, Glyn
was in the onset of a short lived mental break
down brought on by grief. his beautiful regt..
wasted and destroyed! and that they even tried
to shift the blame onto him..i have never seen a
reference that Glyn ever uttered a word in public
about any of it. Glyn was not in awe of C. he just
knew his place.                             xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:30 pm

Clery on Gardner.

"
Major Clery wrote with a venomous pen: 
I must tell you about another of our heroes out here - a man named Gardner in the 14th Hussars. His case has caused a good deal of  Explaining that Gardner (who was on Special Service with Chelmsford Staff) rode out of camp with Chelmsford (and Clery), and that Chelmsford had sent Gardner back to camp with a message for Pulleine, Clery added that Gardner took command of some troops in the camp but left them while they were still fighting (as survivors were alleged to have said) to gallop out of camp toward safety in the Natal town of Dundee. Gardner apparently sang his own praises too loudly and unconvincingly when called before the court of inquiry. Clery added that those who saw Gardner less than heroic action have made up a song about it which they used to sing in chorus at the mess at Helpmakaar, and this ditty wound up at every verse as follows: I very much fear / that the Zulus are near / so, hang it Im off to Dundee. This has now got into the newspapers, who had already found out about it, and were rather hard on him.Apparently, Gardner tried to cover his less than stalwart actions with claims of heroism that properly belonged to other men. When rumours began that Gardner would receive a medal or a promotion, his fellow officers were furious and suggested that what he really deserved was a court-martial, shooting, and other unpleasant things
(p 112) 
Source 'Like Lions They fought"

 
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:35 pm

CTSG

We are going to have to agree to disagree as to the responsibility for the final outcome. Tactical decisions would not have stopped the weight of the Zulu army overrunning the camp. The Zulus were responsible for their own victory - they had been totally underestimated.

I am sure Chelmsford felt he had done all that was necessary when he left. But leaving itself was the principal error. And beyond that, being in Zululand with a lumbering column, an inadequate force and no proper intelligence was doomed to fail against a concentration of 200,000 mobile warriors. He did it very differently the second time.

Les

I think Glyn must have been in a terrible state by the time of the COI - as must Chelmsford. But before the catastrophe Glyn should have exerted his influence rather than retreat into his shell.


Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:39 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
springbok

Thanks for the 'doubts'.  Let me then clarify what I wrote earlier to incorporate your remarks and settle any lingering doubts:

I repeat that Clery had not seen what had actually been written to Durnford because Clery had not been present when Chelmsford gave the orders to Crealock.  Clery did know the general drift of the orders because Chelmsford had originally intended to send them through him (Clery), saying to him, “Order up Colonel Durnford with the troops he has to reinforce the camp”.  Crealock, having overheard the Chelmsford-Clery conversation, spoke from the next tent pointing out to Chelmsford that such an order as originally suggested would be improper as Durnford still had an independent separate command; so Chelmsford relented, changed his mind and decided to give Durnford’s orders to Crealock to despatch.  Clery then left the tent.  Crealock dressed and entered Chelmsford’s tent.  Clery was thus not party to the actual orders conveyed from Chelmsford via Crealock to Durnford.  In fact, unbeknown to Clery, there was no such ‘reinforce-the-camp’ remark in Crealock’s written orders to Durnford.
Thus Clery’s verbal remark to Pulleine WAS incorrect (Durnford had NOT been ordered to reinforce the camp).  

I hope that makes it clear.

.

Bonsoir Mister WHYBRA,

As you know, your fresh hypothesis is totally revolutionary.
So, does your hypothesis is a new interpretation (speculation/ deduction) of fact well known or the result of new material?
You are a serious and meticulous researcher: i am sure you have got a master card. Wink Salute
Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:44 pm

"But he left a thousand men there" state of the art rifles, Cannons, Rocket Battery, Infantry, Mounted units. Enough wagons to form a laager, thousands of rounds of ammuntion.

The first tatical error was sending out scouts without instructions on what to do, should they find any Zulus. That being don't shoot at them.
There had been loads of sightings from the early hours, and some were of the opinion, the camp wasn't in any danger, possibility of a night attack. But the rules changed when Lt Raw engaged them. After that many tacticals errors were made. Deployment of troops, and Durnford leaving the camp to name but a few.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:59 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Steve, do you not believe that at the coi, Glyn
was in the onset of a short lived mental break
down brought on by grief. his beautiful regt..
wasted and destroyed! and that they even tried
to shift the blame onto him..i have never seen a
reference that Glyn ever uttered a word in public
about any of it. Glyn was not in awe of C. he just
knew his place.                             xhosa

Extract from Brian Best on Glyn.

"     Nonetheless, Glyn was experienced in campaigning and relished the coming invasion. It therefore came as great blow to him when Chelmsford and his staff, instead of establishing an independent force headquarters, attached themselves to Glyn’s Column. Chelmsford, ever the considerate gentleman he was, sought to assure Glyn that he would not interfere in the running of the column. In practice this did not work. With two staffs, each jealous of the other and, in Chelmsford’s case, high handed and arrogant, there was considerable friction. Clery and Chelmsford’s Military Secretary, Lieutenant-Colonel John Crealock both lacked diplomacy but possessed vitriolic tongues which further strained relationships between the two camps. Crealock dismissed Glyn by saying, "do not expect anything. (of him) He is a purely regimental officer with no ideas beyond it."
     Glyn and his staff were effectively relegated to mere figureheads. Clery caustically remarked that "Colonel Glyn and his staff were allowed to work the details - posting the guards, etc., and all the interesting work of that kind". This usurping of his command caused Glyn to become disinterested and withdrawn for it was not in his nature to object or challenge any orders. He may well have felt intimidated both by Chelmsford’s status and his height. (the tall lanky General towered over his diminutive Column commander). Clery again: "he (Glyn) was scarcely ever seen or heard of, the more so as he got anything but encouragement to interest himself in what was going on".
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:27 pm

We seemed to be wandering away from the contents and issuing of orders.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:34 pm

CTSG
1.The impropriety was in having an officer of Clery's rank issuing orders to a column commander like Durnford.
2.Clery had no idea what was finally put into Durnford's orders as dictated by Chelmsford to Crealock as he wasn't privy to that conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:43 pm

Hmmm. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:57 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG
1.The impropriety was in having an officer of Clery's rank issuing orders to a column commander like Durnford.
2.Clery had no idea what was finally put into Durnford's orders as dictated by Chelmsford to Crealock as he wasn't privy to that conversation.

But Clery says "Straight after" LC told Crealock to write the order. Clery doesn't say LC and Crealock went off to have a discussion. So Clery must have been present at that point
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:59 pm

Condoleances!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:10 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG
1.The impropriety was in having an officer of Clery's rank issuing orders to a column commander like Durnford.
2.Clery had no idea what was finally put into Durnford's orders as dictated by Chelmsford to Crealock as he wasn't privy to that conversation.

Mister Whybra,
It seems to me that the problematic is:
How can you prove that CHELMSFORD had changed his mind (about DURNFORD) between the discussion with CLERY and a few minutes later with CREALOCK?
Because the order written by CREALOCK for DURNFORD doesn't contain the mention "reinforce the camp" : as you know it is not an argument decisive.
So what is your argument decisive?
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:52 am

Two questions to Mister Whybra without answer...
I am the man "invisble" for him Sad Sad Sad
I will not spend all the night to count the mosquitos glued to my computer screen! (Steve, the South is really not a paradise / Mosquitoes in winter!)
I am going to bed, I have to visit my neighbor before dawn.
Do you think Mister Whybra is a fan of the "Duke"?
Sorry, i am Off Topic
Cheers.

frédéric
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:57 am

Frederic

I think he is reluctant to say too much because he plans a publication.

Steve

Bonne nuit.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:06 am

rusteze wrote:
Frederic

I think he is reluctant to say too much because he plans a publication.

Steve

Bonne nuit.

I know mate.
No problem in reality. Very Happy
It was just a joke about my disappointment (no answer from him)
I am very grateful to him that he has agreed to share with us on this forum. Salute

Bonne nuit
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:18 am

Sorry guys but Thomas has seriously not left the building.
Im assuming that there is other, non released evidence that we /I haven't heard about. Otherwise there is some serious speculation about the order of events.
Some speculation on my part:
for Julians hypothesis to work he has to be confident that a 'further' message was requested to be sent to Durnford. I say requested in that would bring into being a full continuation of the conversation between Chelmsford and Crealock. 'If' that is the situation then the phrase, reinforce the camp, could have been deliberately omitted by Crealock. For that to happen it would intimate Chelmsford did have a wider plan for Durnford.
I really don't expect an answer from Julian to that, I would tend to believe that its the crux of the essay he is working on. So happy to bide my time.
As it stands at present however CTSG is perfectly correct in that Chelmsford moved out of the camp fully expecting a senior Colonel and a full mounted force to 'reinforce the camp' and to act as a screen for the move to the new camp.
The horrible niggle in the back of my head however, isn't a shark trying to devour my red tender flesh (Frederik ! Very Happy ) but the absolute knowledge that Crealock was a very meticulous letter writer.
Frederic
There are the occasional shark in 'Hout Bay', years ago there was one christened The Submarine because of its size. Lately however its more dolphins, they were there yesterday.
impi
I tend to go with you, up to a point.
90th
Similar here, and bugger of buggers I HAVE to spend the entire day at Newlands watching the West Indies/Proteas and drinking cold beer ! No
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:47 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
You may be right LH about SD hearing it or being told by someone, could it have been Clery who mentioned it to him I wonder? But he couldn't have read it in the message as it was not mentioned in that.

BTW, Happy New Year mate. agree  

Martin
That's an extremely interesting point.
Who actually arranged for Smith Dorrien to act as a dispatch rider? If it was Clery he could well have said words to the effect of " Ride to RD, Col Durnford is needed to reinforce the camp." So potentially a verbal conformation of the last order he had heard issued from Chelmsford.
On the other hand If the rider was arranged by Crealock that phrase would hardly have been used if Chelmsford had changed the order. SD was part of the Glyn column, seconded as a transport officer, so would his orders have had to come via the Glyn staff?
At the COI SD said: "I am a transport officer with the 3rd Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a despatch from the general to Colonel Durnford, at Rorkes Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible."
That's Dispatch in the singular, mentioned twice.
In his Memoirs however he says: " At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chemsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorkes Drift for Colonel Durnford RE, who was expected there with reinforcements ( theres that word again) ............ on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandlwana camp.............etc

That seems to suggest that Clery wasn't involved in the chain, BUT he surely should have been.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:11 am

And of course, just to add to the mysteries of the day: Why did Durnford send Hamer with a verbal message to Chelmsford, and what was it??????
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:38 am

springbok9 wrote:
Mr M. Cooper wrote:
You may be right LH about SD hearing it or being told by someone, could it have been Clery who mentioned it to him I wonder? But he couldn't have read it in the message as it was not mentioned in that.

BTW, Happy New Year mate. agree  

Martin
That's an extremely interesting point.
Who actually arranged for Smith Dorrien to act as a dispatch rider? If it was Clery he could well have said words to the effect of " Ride to RD, Col Durnford is needed to reinforce the camp." So potentially a verbal conformation of the last order he had heard issued from Chelmsford.
On the other hand If the rider was arranged by Crealock that phrase would hardly have been used if Chelmsford had changed the order. SD was part of the Glyn column, seconded as a transport officer, so would his orders have had to come via the Glyn staff?
At the COI SD said: "I am a transport officer with the 3rd Column. On the morning of the 22nd I was sent with a despatch from the general to Colonel Durnford, at Rorkes Drift, the Despatch was an order to join the camp at Isandlwana as soon as possible."
That's Dispatch in the singular, mentioned twice.
In his Memoirs however he says: " At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chemsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorkes Drift for Colonel Durnford RE, who was expected there with reinforcements ( theres that word again) ............ on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandlwana camp.............etc

That seems to suggest that Clery wasn't involved in the chain, BUT he surely should have been.

Cheers

Crealock!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:48 am

I'm preparing a post for later today which will have all sources identified in it so that I pre-empt questions about sources. I have very little time and am not deliberately avoiding replying. I am quite keen to do so in fact; I just need to find time to do it properly.
Briefly, on a separate matter re S-D, whilst it was certainly Crealock who gave S-D Durnford's order and despite it not specifically saying so in the order, it would seem obvious that when S-D read the message (as he said he did), he interpreted its contents as meaning 'reinforce/strengthen the camp'.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:01 pm

Thanks Julian. Strange isn't it, although the message does NOT contain the words strengthen, reinforce or take command, it is surprising the number of people who interpret that it does, and even after reading and quoting it time and again, they still seem to interpret it as so.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:05 pm

Crealock COE
Confirming his roll with SD.

3. Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., was not under Colonel Glyn's command at this time; he had been moved from his original position before Middle Drift, with some 250 Mounted Natives, 200 of Sikalis footmen, the Rocket Battery, and one battalion of the 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent to the Umsinga District, on the Lieutenant-General's seeing the ease with which the Natal frontier could be passed in that part of the Buffalo River. The Lieutenant-General's order was therefore sent to him by me, being the only Head Quarter Staff Officer (except the Aide-de-Camps) with him. These details formed part of No. 2 Column under his command.

4. I sent the orders to him by Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, of 95th Foot, with directions to leave as soon as he could see his way. I expected him to find Colonel Durnford at the Bashee Valley; it was delivered and acted upon.

5. Although I was not aware at that time of the Lieutenant-General's grounds for ordering the troops from camp, yet it was evident to me that he wished to close up to the camp all outlying troops, and thus strengthen it. He would naturally also consider that the presence of an officer of Colonel Durnford's rank and corps would prove of value in the defence of a camp, if it should be attacked.


It's interesting in that Crealock, in section (5) says " yet it was evident to me that he wished to close up to the camp all outlying troops, and thus strengthen it. He would naturally also consider that the presence of an officer of Colonel Durnford's rank and corps would prove of value in the defence of a camp, if it should be attacked."

And then of course goes on to agree that Durnsford roll was to remain at the camp in defence.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:18 pm

Frank. Did Durnford not send a messenger (Shepstone?) on the 21st to LC for any change of, or any fresh orders, but the messenger returned with no actual fresh orders but just to tell Durnford to hurry along to Rorke's Drift? Meaning that at that time (the 21st) the pincer move with Bengough was still on the cards, and the message from LC (Crealock) on the morning of the 22nd did not say anything different to this, in fact, if anything, it reinforced it?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:22 pm

Got to think old John North was a bit of a control
freak! merely doing his duty? or was their some-
thing more sinister at work?. xhosa


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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:30 pm

Crealock extract COE

"The first intimation that reached me on the 22nd of there being a force of Zulus in the neighbourhood of the camp was between 9.30 and 10 A.M. We were then off-saddled on neck facing the Isipise range, distant some 2 miles from camp. During  the three previous hours we had been advancing with Colonel Glyn's Column against a Zulu force that fell back from hill to hill as we advanced, giving up without a shot most commanding positions. Major Clery at this time received a half sheet of foolscap with a message from Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine informing him (I think it ran) that a Zulu force had appeared on the hills on his left front. Our own attention was chiefly bent on he enemy's force retiring from the hills in our front, and a party being pursued by Lieutenant Colonel Russell three miles off. This letter was not addressed to me, and I did not note on it the time of receipt, but one I received from Colonel Russell soon after is noted by me (I think, for it is at Pietermaritzburg) as received at 10.20."

"I am not aware what messages had been sent from the camp and received by Colonel Glyn, or his Staff; but I know that neither the General nor myself had up to this time received any information but that I have mentioned."
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:47 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Crealock extract COE

"The first intimation that reached me on the 22nd of there being a force of Zulus in the neighbourhood of the camp was between 9.30 and 10 A.M. We were then off-saddled on neck facing the Isipise range, distant some 2 miles from camp. During  the three previous hours we had been advancing with Colonel Glyn's Column against a Zulu force that fell back from hill to hill as we advanced, giving up without a shot most commanding positions. Major Clery at this time received a half sheet of foolscap with a message from Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine informing him (I think it ran) that a Zulu force had appeared on the hills on his left front. Our own attention was chiefly bent on he enemy's force retiring from the hills in our front, and a party being pursued by Lieutenant Colonel Russell three miles off. This letter was not addressed to me, and I did not note on it the time of receipt, but one I received from Colonel Russell soon after is noted by me (I think, for it is at Pietermaritzburg) as received at 10.20."

"I am not aware what messages had been sent from the camp and received by Colonel Glyn, or his Staff; but I know that neither the General nor myself had up to this time received any information but that I have mentioned."

Possibly a silly question?
Why would Pulleine be sending messages to Clery. Instead of Glyn or LC
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:59 pm

Hi Les.

Interesting how some officers forget the orders they have sent isn't it?

Take this one for instance.

Extract from the order from Chelmsford to Col Durnford on the 8th January 1879.

quote;

"Should you consider that a counter move accross the Buffalo river will be afficacious in preventing an inroad of Zulu's into Natal, YOU ARE AT PERFECT LIBERTY TO MAKE IT.

Uhmmm, then why did LC send Col Durnford the rebuke? scratch
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:04 pm

Clery COE

"To the best of my memory, I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it."
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:13 pm

The evidence of Crealock at the COI at item 5. in CTSG's post is interesting.

Crealock says that at the point when he sends SD with the order for Durnford to come up, he has no idea why the General is leaving the camp. Which I find a little odd.

He then goes on to speculate about the General's intention that the camp should be strengthened, again his assumption, he doesn't refer to the General actually saying that.

And finally, again he speculates that no doubt the General would see an advantage in having someone of Durnford's rank and Corps in the camp if it is attacked. He doesn't say that is what the General actually said either.

And none of that appears in his order to Durnford.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:18 pm

Steve, bang on the mark mate.

Speculation, assumption, guesswork, interpretation, etc, etc, etc, would seem to be rather prevalent back then as well as today.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:55 pm

rusteze wrote:
The evidence of Crealock at the COI at item 5. in CTSG's post is interesting.

Crealock says that at the point when he sends SD with the order for Durnford to come up, he has no idea why the General is leaving the camp. Which I find a little odd.

He then goes on to speculate about the General's intention that the camp should be strengthened, again his assumption, he doesn't refer to the General actually saying that.

And finally, again he speculates that no doubt the General would see an advantage in having someone of Durnford's rank and Corps in the camp if it is attacked. He doesn't say that is what the General actually said either.

And none of that appears in his order to Durnford.

Steve

But going back to Clery, who LC first intended to write the message.

"The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp"

So LC did have strengthen the camp, in mind,when he first order Durnford to the camp.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:09 pm

But if Crealock knew that, why didn't he put it in his order to Durnford, and why didn't he say, with certainty, at the COI that Chelmsford had said that?

There is a gap in the sequence, where we do not know what was said. Perhaps that is what Julian is going to talk about.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Pity no one thought to inform Col Durnford about this, did they think he was clairvoyant, maybe they thought he had the gift of ESP.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:42 pm

Pity someone didn't inform LC of it either, whatever he wanted written wasn't!

If Durnford have been order to Streathen the camp, who he have done things differently ?
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:46 pm

Crealock said :

5. Although I was not aware at that time of the Lieutenant-General's grounds for ordering the troops from camp,

Bonjour,,
If CREALOCK said the truth, 2 possibilities:
-he didn't heard the chat between CHELMSFORD and CLERY, one or two minutes ago about the mission of DURNFORD.
- CLERY misinderstood the intention of Chelmford about DURNFORD. (Strengthen the camp).

If Crealock said the truth, i see no other possibility. scratch
Cheers
Frederic
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