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 Durnford was he capable.5

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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:08 pm

rusteze wrote:
Oops - but I saw it first! Very Happy

Steve

Only Just. Still I'm sure you will pick me up along the line. Very Happy
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:11 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
John, you say that it is us that is speculating, then what do you think that you are doing?

Are you sure you have been following this for any length of time, because if you have, then you cannot be taking in what has been said over the last few weeks, months or even years.

Not all that long back springbok posted a very easy to understand scenario about the boss, the worker and the stores, take a look back at that, it just might help you to understand what the order of the 22nd meant.

Springbok never posts anything that easy to understand! agree
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:13 pm

Well, one thing is for sure, if any of you anti Durnford lot have ever been in the British Army, it was definitely not in the intelligence corps.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:15 pm

John

As long as we don't get any more "sarnarios". Always makes me think of some kind of italian sandwich.

Martin

A low blow.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:20 pm

Xhosa. Come on mate! Add something new!..says john..

John i would dearly love to add something new.. trouble
is there is'nt anything, you have through this place, and
others..seen the lot..no more to see, that's it, zip, nada.
ziltch. no bodys keeping anything from you! its all out in
the open.. i do not speculate like you and others..there
is no point, its for people who cant accept reality. yes
there was a battle..it was at a place called Isandhlwana.we
know all we are going to know!!! those who want to
exercise there minds with what if's..well that's fine, but that's
all it is..an exercise, that bears no relation to reality..
history can be altered by the victors they say..but facts
remain. Durnford went to the camp, as ordered, there were
no fresh orders, he was an independent commander, he
exercised his right to command, he went out of the camp,
found what LC said he wanted to find, he withdrew, some ran
away, he stayed and most died..the end. xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: DURNFORD WAS HE CAPABLE 5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:44 pm

John you are doing exactly what a couple of years ago you thought I was doing which back then you thought meant nothing ! ,when you said Hindsight had nothing to do with the battle , that my friend , is exactly how you are reviewing it ! , with the benefit of hindsight , you say if Durnford stayed in camp , Raw wouldnt have found and fired on the impi therefore causing the commencement of the battle , the beginning of the end , if and it seems you might not know , Durnford when told the enemy were retiring decided to go after them , as he knew which direction LC had gone , he decided to try and outflank the zulu , if in case they ( the zulu ) had indeed changed their plans , and possibly decided to attack LC's strung out force ! . There is dogmatic , then there's stubborn ! , I think we know where your camp is pitched ! Shocked Salute
90th scratch
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:26 pm

Just a question:
if you don't study books, essays of eminent authors on this war, how to you do to learn on this battle?
Are you going to the arhives of the Museums in Great Britain and South africa?
Cheers
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:48 pm

Didn't someone write a letter to Crealock, years after the event regarding the order / Notebook he lost on the Battlefield. Asking him to confirm it was his. Something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:38 pm

Back on topic.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:49 pm

agree
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:51 pm

24th wrote:
Didn't someone write a letter to Crealock, years after the event regarding the order / Notebook he lost on the Battlefield. Asking him to confirm it was his. Something like that.

There is a copy of that letter on the forum. Been looking can't find it. Always the way.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:02 am

90th wrote:
John you are doing exactly what a couple of years ago you thought I was doing which back then you thought meant nothing ! ,when you said Hindsight had nothing to do with the battle , that my friend , is exactly how you are reviewing it ! , with the benefit of hindsight , you say if Durnford stayed in camp , Raw wouldnt have found and fired on the impi therefore causing the commencement of the battle , the beginning of the end , if and it seems you might not know , Durnford when told the enemy were retiring decided to go after them , as he knew which direction LC had gone  , he decided to try and outflank the zulu , if in case they ( the zulu ) had indeed changed their plans , and possibly decided to attack LC's strung out force ! . There is dogmatic , then there's  stubborn ! , I think we know where your camp is pitched ! Shocked Salute
90th scratch

With all those reports of Zulus in the area, was it not obvious something was going to happen. If the Zulus had intended on going after LC could they not have send a few thousand after him in the hours of darkness. As they were nearly five miles away, there must have been a route they could have used to cut him off unseen by those in the camp.
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90th

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PostSubject: DURNFORD WAS HE CAPABLE 5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:55 am

Ulundi
Not to certain I understand what you are saying ? . It was certainly obvious that Durnford and the Headquarters staff never dreamt there was going to be an attack on the camp . Which is most likely why Durnford decided to go out and attempt to outflank the zulu army , also to ascertain there movements once he knew they were retiring , he says as much before he leaves the camp . As I said , for all he knew the zulu's were heading off to attack LC's half column . who are you referring to in ' there must have been a route ' ? . Even today it isnt easy to move around that area , there arent or werent any cosy paths by which to traverse the area , even for the zulu , but 5 miles isnt a great distance to the warriors of the zulu army of 1879 . They could cover 20 or so miles a day quite easily if required over difficult terrain , where as the cumbersome British columns were lucky to 5 or a little more . Happy to be corrected on those '' miles '' .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:24 am

John
Im always easy to understand, just a simple boy from the backwaters of Cumbria. Salute Maybe its the accent?
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:48 am

90th wrote:
Ulundi
Not to certain I understand what you are saying ? . It was certainly obvious that Durnford and the Headquarters staff never dreamt there was going to be an attack on the camp . Which is most likely why Durnford decided to go out and attempt to outflank the zulu army , also to ascertain there movements once he knew they were retiring , he says as much before he leaves the camp . As I said , for all he knew the zulu's were heading off to attack LC's half column . who are you referring to in  ' there must have been a route ' ? . Even today it isnt easy to move around that area , there arent or werent any cosy paths by which to traverse the area , even for the zulu , but 5 miles isnt a great distance to the warriors of the zulu army of 1879 . They could cover 20 or so miles a day quite easily if required over difficult terrain , where as the cumbersome British columns were lucky to 5 or a little more . Happy to be corrected on those '' miles '' .
90th You need to study mo

I think Ulundi, is saying or asking, the Zulus hidden in the valley prior to the attack on the camp. If they had sent a few thousand Zulus after LC when he left, to assist Dartnell. Could they have taken a route, that would have allowed them to by pass the camp, and cut LC off as he was moving towards Dartnell.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:18 am

OH
Yes they could have quite easily by a number of routes.
This would be the best:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
This view is taken from the bottom of iSiphezi, the Zulu camped just around the back on the night of the 20th. they moved of to the ngwebini valley, away over to the right on the morning of the 21st. This aproximatly where Lt brown had a brush with the Zulu column guards. Isandlwana is over on the left, Chelmsfords route would have been from the mountain diagonally across to the left. The Zulus could have come out of the back of ngwebini and headed straight for the camera before moving to the left and intercepted Chelmsford column.
Hope that helps.

John I do hope you understood. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:23 pm

LOL! Now now Springy, are you trying to make yourself somewhat younger? Suspect

"a simple boy from the backwaters of CUMBRIA" scratch

Cumbria wasn't established until 1st April 1974, making you just 41 years old. Shocked

Could this be a case of wishful thinking? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:44 pm

Didn't think he could spell Lancashire !
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:32 pm

LOL! Now you will be for it mate. Mad

While your on springy, do you know of any map/s that show things as they were back then, you know, things like Hands Kraal, Vermaak's, Middle Drift, Sand Spruit, Gates of Natal, etc, etc, and where they are in relation to RD and iSandlwana? I have been searching online, found maps and other things, however, the maps are either not large enough to show these, or they are that small you can't even read what they say, I can't even find them on google earth, so is there anything that you can advise about this?

Cheers mate. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:59 pm

Maybe i have been to harsh about Lord Chelmsford!
after all they say he was a very nice chap, warm,
kind and considerate..

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:30 pm

springbok9 wrote:
OH
Yes they could have quite easily by a number of routes.
This would be the best:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
This view is taken from the bottom of iSiphezi, the Zulu camped just around the back on the night of the 20th. they moved of to the ngwebini valley, away over to the right on the morning of the 21st. This aproximatly where Lt brown had a brush with the Zulu column guards. Isandlwana is over on the left, Chelmsfords route would have been from the mountain diagonally across to the left. The Zulus could have come out of the back of ngwebini and headed straight for the camera before moving to the left and intercepted Chelmsford column.
Hope that helps.

Thanks Springbok.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:44 pm

90th wrote:
John you are doing exactly what a couple of years ago you thought I was doing which back then you thought meant nothing ! ,when you said Hindsight had nothing to do with the battle , that my friend , is exactly how you are reviewing it ! , with the benefit of hindsight , you say if Durnford stayed in camp , Raw wouldnt have found and fired on the impi therefore causing the commencement of the battle , the beginning of the end , if and it seems you might not know , Durnford when told the enemy were retiring decided to go after them , as he knew which direction LC had gone  , he decided to try and outflank the zulu , if in case they ( the zulu ) had indeed changed their plans , and possibly decided to attack LC's strung out force ! . There is dogmatic , then there's  stubborn ! , I think we know where your camp is pitched ! Shocked Salute
90th scratch

90th You think you do! agree
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:46 pm

Just a throw out question.

Not really concerned about Durfords actions for now. But what exactly did the officers and men under him achieve.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:23 pm

Back on topic.. For the last time.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:01 am

John

Your question is a difficult one. The one thing that nobody at Isandhlwana achieved was to see the dawn on the 23rd.

More generally the campaign was just a few days old so I don't think Durnford's command had had much opportunity. Neither had anyone else.

Did Durnford's command achieve any less than the rest, I don't think so. But I am not sure how you might measure it if they are all dead. What do you think?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:17 am

Achieve is such a subjective term. would any of the officer's
really be thinking straight as the main Zulu Impi revealed itself
in all its majestic glory, or did they only have time to react, we
have the statements of a few survivors, but they don't convey
the ferocious speed of the Zulu onslaught. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:18 am

I maybe wrong, but I think It was some of Durnfords men who gave covering Fire, to some of the survivors crossing the river. And by all accounts done a good job.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:20 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Achieve is such a subjective term. would any of the officer's
really be thinking straight as the main Zulu Impi revealed itself
in all its majestic glory, or did they only have time to react, we
have the statements of a few survivors, but they don't convey
the ferocious speed of the Zulu onslaught.                   xhosa  

You could have given this reply to Johns original post. Couldn't you.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:24 am

Yes i guess i could..thanks dave. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:30 am

I maybe wrong, but I think It was some of Durnfords men who gave covering Fire, to some of the survivors crossing the river. And by all accounts done a good job. says dave..

Yes your spot on there mate, they were the Edendale Contingent, i agree
they did sterling work, and allowed many to survive. xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:57 am

Dave here is a site many zulu war readers use as a guide when looking for books on the AZW . As you will see this review states what nearly everyone else agrees on in regard to Snooks lack of footnotes ! .

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

90th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:27 am

Ah yes, the mysterious Elizabeth.
Suspect I wonder how he is?
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:46 am

Very Happy He or She it matters not , I think it's a decent review ! Very Happy Salute
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:02 am

Cant fault that. Very Happy
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:08 am

90th Read his preface.

"Mike Snook states that he was not setting out to write a detailed academic dissertation about the battle, but to reconstruct Isandhlwana using primary sources and where gaps appear, to use military logic and a professional soldier's eye for ground to fill in the missing pieces. This he achieves"

Springbok, Snook looks at the Battlefield in the same way you do! On the ground. You say, you find a place to sit, then through your minds eye, see the battle unfold. The only difference is, Snook puts in what he see's on paper.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:23 am

In fact I can fault it !
Quote "such as half of Pulleine’s command being engaged dismantling the camp as the Zulus attacked, an event witnessed and confirmed by those lucky to escape the onslaught, and who left detailed accounts, such as Lt. Curling RA."
And that comes from where? da da Adrian Greaves maybe?

Dave
Dead right ! I have no problem with Snooks battle analysis at all, exactly as Elizabeth says, the problems come with him going of into the realms of fantasy. When the book was originally published I did a review for the forum and said basically the same as this reviewer has said, Battlefield...........Brilliant. Fantasy............Harry Potter.

Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:42 am

Springbok wrote:
realms of fantasy.

Is that not all it can ever be, we have eyewitness accounts ect, but the only ones who really know how it ended was the Zulus. "realms of fantasy" just fill in the gaps. What else is there.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:53 am

ASa Ive posted, the Battlefield review is brilliant, but theres is no record of the so called conversations of Pulleine theres no record of his positioning or his being shot or of his being mounted when he was shot. There is no record of the movements that are attributed to various officers, so yes flights of fantasy. And its those areas that spoil what should have been an acclaimed book. Far to many points that stemmed from the authors imagination.

Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:03 am

Coghill, told Curling Pulleine had been shot, by the river.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:06 am

"B.
From Lieutenant Curling to Officer Commanding No. 8. Helpmakaar, January 26, 1879.
SIR,
I HAVE the honour to forward the following report of the circumstances attending the loss of two guns of N Brigade, 5th Battery Royal Artillery, at the action of Isandlwana, on January 22. About 7.80 A.M. on that date, a large body of Zulus being seen on the hills to the left front of the camp, we were ordered to turn out at once, and were formed up in front of the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment Camp, where we remained until eleven o'clock, when we returned to camp with orders to remain harnessed up and ready to turn out at a minute's notice. The Zulus did not come within range and we did not come into action. The infantry also remained in column of companies. Colonel Durnford arrived about ten A.M. with Basutos and the rocket battery ; he left about eleven o'clock with these troops in the direction of the hills where we had seen the enemy. About twelve o'clock we were, turned out, as heavy firing was heard in the direction of Colonel Durnford's force. Major Smith arrived as we were turning out and took command of the guns, we trotted up to a position about 400 yards beyond the left front of the Natal Contingent Camp, and came into action at once on a large body of the enemy about 3,400 yards off. The 1st Battalion 24th Regiment soon came up and extended in skirmishing order on both flanks and in line with us. In about a quarter of an hour, Major Smith took away one gun to the right, as the enemy were appearing in large numbers in the direction of the Drift, in the stream in front of the camp. The enemy advanced slowly, without halting; when they were 400 yards off, the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment advanced about 30 yards. We remained in the same position. Major Smith, returned at this time with his gun, and came into action beside mine. The enemy advancing still, we began firing case, but almost immediately the infantry were ordered to retire. Before we could get away, the enemy were by the guns; and I saw one gunner stabbed as he was mounting on to an axle-tree box. The limber gunners did not mount, but ran after the guns. We went straight through the camp but found the enemy in possession. The gunners were all stabbed going through the camp with the exception of one or two. One of the two sergeants was also killed at this time. When we got on to the road to Rorke's Drift it was completely blocked up by Zulus. I was with Major Smith at this time, he told me he had been wounded in the arm. We saw Lieutenant Coghill, the A.D.C., and asked him if we could not rally some men and make a stand, he said he did not think it could be done. We crossed the road with the crowd, principally consisting of natives, men left in camp, and civilians, and went down a steep ravine leading towards the river. The Zulus were in the middle of the crowd, stabbing the men as they ran. When we had gone about 400 yards, we came to a deep cut in which the guns stuck. There was, as far as I could see, only one gunner with them at this time, but they were covered with men of different corps clinging to them. The Zulus were in them almost at once, and the drivers pulled off their horses. I then left the guns. Shortly after this. I again saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulleine had been killed. Near the river I saw Lieutenant Melville, 1st
Battalion 24th Regiment, with a colour, the staff being broken. I also saw Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien assisting a wounded man. During the action, cease firing, was sounded twice.
I am, &c. (Signed) H. T. CURLING, Lieutenant R.A."
 
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:07 am

Granted it doesn't say "Shot" but killed.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:24 am

Dave wrote:
Coghill, told Curling Pulleine had been shot, by the river.

You've managed to take two sentences, miss out some punctuation and create a different meaning. that should be a full stop after shot.
And I don't really see where your going with this, its got nothing to do with Snooks description of Pulleines death.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:06 pm

Dave you need to be aware of what you are highlighting ! , you have changed the meaning . No
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PostSubject: Did Colonel Durnford go in the opposite direction?   Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:03 pm

Ever since one of the  members suggested that Durnford went in the opposite direction, others have jumped on the band wagon and keep on quoting this as being 'fact'.

Although this so called 'fact' keeps cropping up and keeps on being quoted as either "Durnford went the wrong way", or "Durnford went in the wrong direction", and as been answered quite a few times, the members that just love to blame Durnford for the loss at iSandlwana keep on quoting this so called 'fact' to use in their arguments.

So I thought it was about time that this fallasy was cleared up once and for all, and prove that Durnford was in fact doing what he should have been doing in his attempt to cover Chelmsford's back.

I searched online and in various books for a map of the area at the time, which shows the movements and directions taken by the various parties involved, ie; Dartnell, Lonsdale, Chelmsford, Raw, Durnford, the Rocket Battery, and of course the zulus. Almost all maps in the various AZW books show the directions in which these various parties took, so anyone of you can use any of these maps for this experiment. You will also need an all points compass rose that show all the various points and the full 360 deg. Once you have the map and compass rose, you will also need to have an understanding of how to use a map and compass in order to do your own experiment and show that Durnford did NOT go in the opposite or wrong direction.  

Let's first look at what happened to make Durnford go the way he went, and let's see if he was right in going that way.

Col Durnford arrived at the camp and was appraised of the situation by Lt Col Pulleine, he sent out scouts to look out for any zulu movements, and also sent some of his mounted men to try to obtain some better information. The mounted men (Raw, etc), would have left the camp towards the North (360 deg), then taken a sharp turn and headed North East (45 deg), then East North East (65 deg) towards the Mabaso Heights.

Now let's see which way Lonsdale and Dartnell went on their patrols.

Lonsdale set off Southward and turned South by East 3/4 East (160 deg), and headed towards a gap between the Malakatha and the Hlazakazi. Dartnell also set off Southward and turned South South East 1/2 East (150 deg), and headed towards Mangeni. As we all know, Dartnell found what he thought was the main zulu army, and sent off a message to Chelmsford, he and Lonsdale (who had turned East from Malakatha with the Hlazakazi on his left), and met with Dartnell and camped out for the night on high ground.

Chelmsford then set off from the camp in the early hours to get to Mangeni and do battle along with Dartnell and Lonsdale. He left the camp going South East by East 1/4 East (120 deg), to get to the position where Dartnell was.

Now let's go back to the camp and see for ourselves what the good Col Durnford did.

Reports came in that the zulus were retreating in all directions, however, the reports also said that a large body of zulus were heading in the direction towards Chelmsford. That direction would be due South at South by East 1/4 East (165 deg). If you look at this on your map, you will see that this is on a direct course of interception with the route that Chelmsford had taken.

Col Durnford was heard to say, "if they are heading towards the general we must stop them at all hazzards", he then set off to do just that. He left the camp bearing South East by East 3/4 East (115 deg), and very gradually veered towards the East and North and ended up being confronted by the whole left horn of the zulu impi at East 3/4 North (80 deg).

You can plot this on your maps and you will see that Col Durnford did the right move by putting himself between the zulus and Chelmsford, and thus cutting them off on their intercept course towards Chelmford.

Durnford then made a fighting retreat towards the camp, on the way they rescued the survivors of the RB, who, it appears had been sent on a short cut by a Carbineer. This short cut was to be their downfall, they had turned onto a bearing of North East by East (55 deg), and been ambushed by a zulu skirmishing party and scattered, however, the survivors had been rescued by Durnford and his men.

Now, put all this on your maps, and you will see for yourselves that the fallasy of Durnford going in the opposite or wrong direction is totally rubbish. He was doing what he said, and that was protecting his generals rear and flank. Let's face it, if he had been going in the opposite direction, he would have been going North West by West 3/4 West (305 deg), which of course is a total impossibility.

Do it yourselves and see, you will then realise that Col Durnford did what any good officer would have done, and attempted to protect his general.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:18 pm

Bonjour Martin,
Thank you for this analysis. The question of the "opposite direction" taken by DURNFORD is also one of the problems for me to understand his intention this day.
Cheers.

Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:17 pm

Martin
Lets try again.
You seem to have developed a habit of misquoting and then using those misquotes to try and pursue your self imposed attempt to find the largest possible whitewash brush to smother Colonel Durnford with.
Im not going to attempt to try and translate those rather fearsome compass directions, instead rather look at the graphic ive attached, again.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lets go back in time, as the esteemed member who has been thinly vieled as a liar, and I don't use that term with much pleasure, to your original defence of Colonel Durnford. that basis was that he was riding of to protect the generals rear. I countered that argument with a comment of he was riding in the wrong direction. Never that he was going in the opposite direction, this is one of YOUR misquotes. And its on that misquote you have launched your latest impassioned defence.
Its quite plain from the graphic that Col Durnford was going nowhere near the generals rear.
Your next defence of Colonel Durnford was that he was operating a 'pincer' movement with Raw etc, again look at the directions of advance and the relative locations. if Raw had carried on riding he would have ended up in the Ngwebini valley, that's where history places him. If Durnford had carried on riding he would have pitched up in Babanago, never the twain shall meet I think is the phrase.
When neither of these defence lines have worked you have now attached importance to Colonel Durnford riding to intercept the Zulus threatening the generals force. A glance at the relative positions will show if that was feasible or not. Suffice to point out that if he was so concerned with chasing the MAJOR portion of the impi spotted in the morning he had a couple of options. Again bare in mind the SIZE of that impi. Firstly he could have been a tad more worried about the 4000 that Chard was worried about and instead of sending just one company back to guard his wagons he could have done something a lot more constructive. Secondly he could have chased after the other 3000 on the plateau. He does neither, that last force was potentially the one that could have done some damage to the Generals force. He elects to ride of down the Quabe, so why? If he thought he was chasing a force big enough to worry the General he was 3 hours to late, and to try and stand up to 3000 with a force of 100 is not the most military action he could have thought of.( that was proved some 60 minutes later) However if he was chasing only 400, what on earth gave him the arrogance that he could do a better job than his general with a much smaller force. A force of 400? Why bother. The issue of that 400 is also open to question, theoretically they were reported by his scouts, yet those scouts were sent out before the companies onto the plateau, so why didn't the companies on the plateau attend to them?
So weve had three totally separate defence patterns laid out for Colonel Durnford. Probably one or even all are correct, I don't know, and we never will. Its the reason de tat for this forum being in business
I wont however be told Im a liar, talking rubbish etc. If your going to argue do it with correct information, from source.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:15 pm

Bonjour Frank,
As you know, i am not an expert on topography, i try to understand:

#Hypothesis (from your map):
1°) The Zulus(for DURNFORD) were somewhere between the ngebini valley and the Quabe valley
2°) Chelmsford route: to the Mangeni



My question is: Do you think that it is plausible that the intent of DURNFORD was to intercept the Zulus (standed somewhere between the Ngebini valley and the Quabe valley) before they rush (in a direct line) to the mangeni in Chelsmford's rear?

In watching the map, it seems to me that it's possible

Frank, its a inocent question, not a assertion. Wink Wink
Cheers

Frédéric
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:21 pm

Woah! hang on, take it easy.

Misreading and then misquoting can work both ways, as can taking things out of context.

It can be difficult to try to explain something by typing a message, whereas it is much easier to explain the same thing in person. Typing it can produce the wrong 'vibes', and end up giving the other person the wrong sort of message, whereas explaing it person to person is often very much easier to do.

So firstly let me apologise for any ill feeling that I might have caused. I have never had any sort of intention to cause any bad feelings to you in any way, shape, or form, and can only hope that our friendship over the last few years will not be injured by my bad judgement or selection of wording.

Since it was first posted back in 2013 suggesting that Durnford had, let's say, "gone the wrong way", others have jumped on the bandwagon and quoted it in their arguments, and have said that "Durnford went in the wrong direction", or that "Durnford went the wrong way", and yes, it was also said back in 2013 that "Durnford went in the opposite direction", and that is why I used the word 'rubbish', not meaning that you were talking rubbish, but others who have jumped on the bandwagon and used this 'wrong way' thing to prop up their argument.

I have been looking back and have found the use of the word 'opposite' in a post about this, however, it was not you who used it, and you did correct the poster by saying, "not exactly opposite, but certainly different", so again, I apologise if you thought I had misquoted you.

Also looking back at earlier postings, I did find that on Saturday May 18th 2013, you said.

"Durnford headed North East, that's away from his directed path, thus indicating that he sought combat with the retreating impi".

You never know, maybe that is where the idea came from for him going in the opposite direction. But looking at your image, it is obvious that Durnford did not go North East at all.

Yet much earier on Monday Sep 3rd 2012, you said.

"That's why Durnford left in a hurry to put himself between them (the zulus) and Chelmsford".

With regard to the pincer between Durnford and Raw, on Saturday May 25th 2013, you said that.

"Durnford had done his own thing and attempted to crush the zulus on the ridge between his troops and those of Raw and Vause, that's the logical assumption as both sections were on a collision course, they would have met up at a point where the Quabe Valley reaches the current Nqutu Babanango Road".

So maybe that's where the idea of a pincer between Raw and Durnford may have come from.

Anyway, if I have been getting things wrong, then again I apologise.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:22 pm

I find all this talk of 'wrong direction' and 'right direction' not quite to the point.
Surely, on the day, Durnford decided for himself the best direction in which his disparate forces should proceed in order to achieve their immediate goals.  He would have acted on the latest intelligence available and acted accordingly.
Durnford was not intending in the first instance to go in the direction of Chelmsford.  He was intending to place himself in a position such that his force could intercept any forward movement in the direction of Chelmsford's force by the small force of Zulus he imagined were on the plateau.
Every decision made was a 'right' decision at the time of its being made, otherwise it would not have been taken.
Isn't that being logical?
Anything we know now in hindsight is irrelevant.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:15 pm

"He was intending to place himself in a position such that his force could intercept any forward movement in the direction of Chelmsford's force by the small force of Zulus he imagined were on the plateau."

You see! It should be tactical positioning. Not using ones imagination! You use the intelligence gathered, then make decisions. Look at the whole picture.
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