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 Durnford was he capable.5

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:16 am

You have a point LH. We tend to forget there were other colors at the camp.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:30 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Frederic


As to why Durnford should be ordered to take with him the rocket battery and two NNC coys, why shouldn't he???  There was not much point in leaving them behind.  They were all part of Durnford's command.  The NNC would be just as useful on the Mangeni as on the Buffalo

Mister Whybra tells us 2 Coys, i said in a previous message 3.
Extract of Keith I. SMITH's thesis: (p.54-55)
"On the 17th januray, Durnford finally marched to Sandspruit, arriving there on the following day, with three companies of the 1 Battalion (...) . The 3 foot companies had been combined into two, under Captains NOURSE and STAFFORD, because the Captain of the third companie, HAY, was senior officer and had to remain behind to act as paymaster*."
(* E. Durnford " A soldier's life" p.213)

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:47 am

Littlehand
From memory ; Pulleine was believed to have given Melvill the Queens Colour of the 1 / 24th , and permission to try and save them ! , , the Regimental Colour of the 1 / 24th was still at Helpmekaar . The two colours of the 2 / 24th were , if I remember correctly , in Glyn's Guard Tent ? . I've never heard of anyone mentioning that any flags were fluttering in the breeze with troops rallying around them ! . I think they would've had more on their minds than finding the flags and getting them up and flying . Especially when it was mooted that Isandlwana according to LC , was to be only a transient stop.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:51 am

Bonjour à tous,
There is a rumor about Lt DYER riding with one flag.
Cheers.

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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:56 am

Bonjour Frederic
Where is this rumour of Dyer riding around with a flag , I dont remember reading it scratch . Then again I've read a lot I've probably forgotten it , it happens as you get older ! Joker Joker Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:04 am

90th wrote:
Bonjour Frederic
Where is this rumour of Dyer riding around with a flag , I dont remember reading it scratch . Then again I've read a lot I've probably forgotten it , it happens as you get older ! Joker Joker Shocked
90th Sad

Bonjour Gary,
Sorry, i don't remember where i read it.
Maybe, in the account of (Penn)SYMONS?
From memory, the rumour was about a tall Officer on a horse with a flag, who's seemed to be Lt Dyer.
The DYER's body was found on the neck near WARDELL with a spear in the chest (from memory / I have some doubt on my memory, it happens as you get older Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:20 am

Gary,
From memory, i repeat.
It seems to me that the source is Wilsone Black.
I remember also that Dyer was on a "chesnut" horse, a flag on each hand, the reins in the mouth (the same rumor? / another rumour?).
Cheers
Frédéric

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:37 am

Grenfell was on Chelmsford's staff and so was not "on the spot", but was out with the General. So, more hearsay. He was later with the Prince Imperial just before he was killed and received the news from Carey.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:58 am

Gary,
In my notes, i wrote for the sources of the rumour: Wilsone Black (Moddies "Zulu war" pochet ed. 1988, p.62) and Corporal FROWEN (2/24th)
That's all...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Some parts of the colours were found in various locations of the battlefield. Near fugitive's drift in March 1879, in a kraal situated near the battlefield in May 1879, on the banks of the river in September 1879 which marks the last stand of Lt Anstey.
From memory, a bit was found several years later by Mainwairing (2/24th) on the black koppie.
Sorry, i have "no source" for these comments.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:31 pm

90th
Didn't Lt Sadler find one of the 2/24th Colour poles in a village a few miles from iSandlwana?

The report of the tall officer riding a red roan seems to be a  'Chinese Whisper' Moodie quotes a 'Times reporter' who mentions that the officers from Blacks patrol were 'told' that  the tall officer etc. Third or forth hand rumour........... So no source for the story seems to exist. Or at least non that I can find.
Frederic, can you amplify the Corp Frowen reference for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:06 pm

Could this be Corporal "Frowen"?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:08 pm

Frank,
About FROWEN, sorry, i can't. Just that he was with Chelsmford the 22 January.
I am sure that the Frowen's comments are also "chinese whisper" (Dyer was on a "chesnut" horse, a flag on each hand, the reins in the mouth)
They are the first notes i have taken on this war five years ago...i lacked methodology, still more than today!!! At this time, my concern was to understand English's books, not to collect the sources and footnotes! Very Happy
Cheers

Cheers.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Bonjour Steve,
Sincerly, i don't know.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:38 pm

littlehand wrote:
"Grenfell, Francis. Handwritten letter and typescript to "

"My dear Sir" dated "Pieter Maritzburg Feb. 3 - / 79.
   A highly interesting letter about the Zulu War. Brevet-Major Grenfell, later Field Marshall Baron Grenfell, writes to an unnamed friend about a Zulu attack on a camp near Isandhlwana, a day or so before the main Zulu assault on Rorke's Drift. It is a very vivid account of a massacre of English and loyal native troops.

"...The loss of the Camp was due to the Officer Commanding...Col. Durnford who...disregarded the orders left by the General...Durnford is dead, but he shot himself when all was lost. This will probably never be known publicly but this is the case. Officers and men behaved splendidly dying back to back and at the last rallying round the Colours..."

This letter, written ten days after the event by a man on the spot, is a very different account from the one found under Durnford in the D.N.B. A fine and moving letter."

Warwick Record Office.


"From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt. 1

Rorke's Drift.
19 February 1879

....I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed.... "

So did this chap, hear the same a Grenfell. Both were out with LC.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:14 pm

Thomas Thomas was discussed about three months ago. He wasn't there.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:23 pm

LH wrote:
So did this chap, hear the same a Grenfell. Both were out with LC.

[/b]Rusteze LH does say, they were both with LC ? [/b]

Moving on.

Crealock at the COE stated he had written to Col Durnford to take command of the camp. ( This we know to be un-true) 

The order he did send, ordered Col Durnford to move to the camp. 

In either case is doesn't imply that Durnford should act independently, or leave the camp. 
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Impi

I can't believe you think that is moving on! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:35 pm

The discussion between LC, Crealock and Cléry in the first hours of the 22 january suggests indeed that for LC Durnford was the commander of an independlently column.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:43 pm

In which case, why did Dunford take command of Col Pulleine's command. Surly if he was acting independantly taking command of the camp, would have been the last thing he should have done. Be cause he wouldn't have been acting independantly.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:48 pm

impi wrote:
In which case, why did Dunford take command of Col Pulleine's command. Surly if he was acting independantly taking command of the camp, would have been the last thing he should have done. Be cause he wouldn't have been acting independantly.

Sorry, it's enough for me on this specific subject.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:50 pm

rusteze wrote:
Impi

I can't believe you think that is moving on! Very Happy

Steve

Just trying to accertain why, people think Durnford was acting independantly.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:55 pm

[quote="ymob"]
impi wrote:
In which case, why did Dunford take command of Col Pulleine's command. Surly if he was acting independantly taking command of the camp, would have been the last thing he should have done. Be cause he wouldn't have been acting independantly.

Sorry, it's enough for me on this specific subject.
Cheers.


Ymob. We have a saying! " if you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen"
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes agree agree

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:12 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
90th
Didn't Lt Sadler find one of the 2/24th Colour poles in a village a few miles from iSandlwana?

The report of the tall officer riding a red roan seems to be a  'Chinese Whisper' Moodie quotes a 'Times reporter' who mentions that the officers from Blacks patrol were 'told' that  the tall officer etc. Third or forth hand rumour........... So no source for the story seems to exist. Or at least non that I can find.
Frederic, can you amplify the Corp Frowen reference for me.

Cheers




From the Royal Regiment of Wales website (http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/fact_sheets/7.htm):
"the 2nd Battalion Colours were left behind in the camp and were lost on 22nd January 1879 at the Battle of Isandhlwana. All that were found was a pike, a crown and Colour case (it cannot be assumed that these pieces related to the same Colour). The pike was found in a kraal two miles from Isandhlwana on the 21st May 1879. The crown was found by a wood cutting party in a farmhouse on the Natal side of the buffalo, four miles from Rorke's Drift in March 1879 and the case was found about 1200 yards from the camp in a bed of the stream.
The surviving pike and crown were trooped at the presentation of new Colours in Gibraltar in August 1880. The relics were subsequently presented to HM Queen Victoria by Major C J Bromhead on 15th March 1881 and were later placed in the Armoury at Windsor Castle. They remained there until 25th July 1923, when HM King George V returned them to the Regiment for safe-keeping. The relics were re-dedicated on Sunday 20th April 1924 and placed in the Regimental Chapel in Brecon Cathedral."


PS

The man seen with the flag was Henry Dyer the Adjutent of the second Battalion . Its in Zulu Victory. By RL & PQ
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:33 pm

impi wrote:
ymob wrote:
impi wrote:
In which case, why did Dunford take command of Col Pulleine's command. Surly if he was acting independantly taking command of the camp, would have been the last thing he should have done. Be cause he wouldn't have been acting independantly.

Sorry, it's enough for me on this specific subject.
Cheers.


Ymob. We have a saying! " if you can't stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen"
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes agree agree


Contrary to you, i don't like cooking. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:54 pm

A Frenchman who doesn't like cooking. You must be working independantly agree
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:21 pm

I.E
Impi;
From memory, Hook, you avatar, worked at RD at the hospital's cook... Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:10 am

Impi
Thanks for the amplification on the finding of the 2/24th colour staff. I need to check but I have a feeling that Dyers body was seen on the battlefield.
Littlehand
Thomas Thomas has been completely discredited on numerous occasions. But your probably right there were a lot of rumours floating around so they could very easily have picked them up at the same time.
I seem to recall the rumour that the Zulu sneaked up a drainage ditch to get into the middle of the camp.

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I
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:31 am

Hi Frank
The following from Ian Knight's ' Companion To The AZW '
'' The two Colours of the 2 / 24th lost at Isandlwana were never recovered .At the end of March 1879 a wood cutting party from RD found the Gilt Crown Finial from one of the Colours in the garden of a deserted farm house 4 miles downstream from RD .
It appeared to have been unscrewed by someone familair with the construction of a Colour - Pole , but how it got there remains a mystery . The Pole from which it had been removed was discovered by vedettes of the 1st KDG's in a zulu homestead about 2 miles from Isandlwana during the burial expedition of 21st May . It is not clear , either , how pole and crown became separated. No trace of the Colours themselves were found , although the homestead was put to the torch by the Dragoons before being thoroughly searched - rather to the 24th's regret '' .
90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:58 am

Morning 90th
Yep that's the situation, the leader of the expedition was Lt Sadler, Ian has him as Sadlier, KDG. So as Littlehand mentioned no real reason to suppose that the glorious Victorian melodrama scene of them fighting around the flag ''''Could'''''' have actually happened. Be great to think so.

Cheers Mate,

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:18 am

Hi Frank
Yes the Aussie - Kiwi Game is Saturday morning my time 11.30 am I think it is , which will make it 2.30 am your time ! . There was a lot of rain there today , here's hoping they play ! . There is no one named Sadler on the Rolls as a Lt , either in the 1 / 24 or 2 / 24th , I do think that , that being the case , it is the Lt Sadlier of the KDGD's that is mentioned by Ian , which is the correct person ? . Which book contained the mention of a Lt Sadler 24th ? . I've checked the Rolls of both Regt's of the 24th , all officers and men , there isnt a Sadler mentioned in any of them scratch
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:24 am

90th
I will have to check it out, I have a gut feel it was one of the old ones, Moodie possibly. Ian has it as Sadlier in the big silver book as well.


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:27 am

Sorry just noticed the question on Sadler being 24th where did you get that from?? Don't think that was ever mentioned? I had him as Sadler KDG. But agreed Sadlier is the right one.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:29 am

Sadler: Zulu Rising Page 579. Ians confusing himself.
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:50 am

LOL . I thought you mentioned a Lt Sadler from the 24th , but , checking back I've misunderstood your post , seems Ian has confused himself also  Very Happy  , we are now certainly in agreeance , that there is no Sadler , there is no Sadler on the Rolls for the KDG's . Sadlier is on the Roll for the KDG's , think we'll go with that , agreed ?
Cheers Mate 90th  Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:32 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Gardner's order makes it clear the Isandhlwana was to become the next entrenched 'staging post' for Chelmsford en route: Rorke's Drift-Isandhlwana-Mangeni.  Each one a day's ox waggon-journey from the other.
The supplies, ammo and camp equipage were to be sent on to Mangeni.  No doubt the orders for specific coys would have followed (if indeed they were not already included in Gardner's message).
As for Durnford's troops, there is nothing mentioned in Gardner's message.  Perhaps because LC didn't know if he'd arrived at Isandhlwana yet or perhaps because he'd already had his orders.
That much is clear.

Bonjour à tous,
About the timing for the moving of the camp:Diary transcripts from Trooper CLARK NMP (source 1879 AZWF / 6 Nov, 2011, 5:47 pm / By Barry)

(...) never in my whole life was i so thankful for daylight, as this morning.
At about 6am we met Chelsmford with some mounted infantry, guns and infantry (2-24th) and we were ordered to get between the enemy, seen yesderday, and Matanyana's stronghold
(...)but we were allowed much rest for news arrived that the camp had been attacked and we were ordered to retire with the infantry and some NNC to bivouac at the foot of the Isipisi mountain, where our next camp was to be formed.
After offsaddling, LC with the Volunteers went off towards Isandlawana but before going he promised to send foot out to us and bring on the camp the next days (23rd).In less than half an hour Major Gosset, ADC, galloped up and ordered us to retire on the camp at once and i was heartily glad to hear thaht there was some prospect of getting some food tonight. (...°
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:45 pm

Just an observation.

If Durnford was acting independantly. Why did he obey the order and move from RD to Isandlwana?
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:50 am

I'm thinking because he wasnt going to be of any use on the Natal side of the river , 9 miles from Isandlwana . He could've disregarded it I assume if part of the Zulu army were looking to cross the river , in other words bypassing Isandlwana . He had nothing else to act upon , so why would he not obey that order . Hope this makes sense .
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:11 am

Because the order came from LC via Crealock.?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:58 am

The question still stands. What really was going through Durnford head, when he writes " i am down because I'm left behind, but we shall see"


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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:13 am

Impi,

Just out of interest.

Who was Durford, and who was she?

John Y.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:57 pm

And there was me thinking you had posted a sensible reply! No
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:16 pm

Impi,
Durnford wrote these words in a letter to his mother the 21th january.
I think the letter bas been written before thé return of G. Shepstone from Isandhlwana.
It's a important point because Shepstone met Chelmsford to get " fresh orders" for the column n2.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:10 pm

Doesn't really answer the question. Its a bit of a damming statement, considering what happened at Isandlwana.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:18 pm

This is a pointless exercise. Nobody will ever know what was going through his head because he never told us. We are left with guessing and we don't agree. What is going to change that?

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:37 pm

Doesn't really answer the question Shocked

With others words:
Since the beginning of the invasion, Durnford the commander of the column n°2 was left "behind".
He has not yet actively participed to the invasion.
Since the 20th january he was at Rorke's Drift. He wait (and hoped) the order (from Chelmsford) to go "forward"...like any ambitious Officer, i suppose.
Remember that during his long career in the army, he has never participed to a "fight" (with the exception of the fiasco of the Bushman's pass in 1873".
It you have another explanation, i am curious to know it.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:20 pm

He went on his own accord to attack the Zulu's because of information received from a Bishop. Is it really any wonder, that LC wanted to keep him out of the way. Isandlwana I think proves he wasn't fit to be in command.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:35 pm

24th,

24th wrote:
He went on his own accord to attack the Zulu's because of information received from a Bishop.

When did Anthony William Durnford attack any Zulus whilst acting on Bishop Schreuder's information?

John Y.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:44 am

Okay, he was going to. But prevented from doing so, either way it bares out his personal thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:31 am

second paragraph of the order of the 8th January from Chelsmford:
« Should you consider that a counter-move across the Buffalo river will be efficacious in preventing an inroad of zulus into Natal, you are a perfect libery to make it, but with the understanding that it is made with a pure defensive purpose, and that the force making it returns to its former position on completion of the duty entrusted to it »

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