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 Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879

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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:49 am

A Durban newspaper carried a report about the effort being made by Zulu academics to get the names of Zulu casualties in the war inscribed on a memorial. Apparently they have been compiling a list of casualties for many years, but they have been unable to get the memorial project off the ground. The Zulu King is now involved, so perhaps there will be a result sooner rather than later.

Brett
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:31 am

That would be some task! I suppose they would have kept a record of names who was in what regiment ect. Let's hope it can be done.
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:59 am

The recording is being done by the usual Zulu way - oral tradition. It seems this is preferred to some of the records made by Colonists (e.g. by missionaries, civil servants), especially if their writings were at all critical (e.g. about King Shaka). I do not know how the Zulu accounts of Isandlwana and other aspects of the Zulu War that were recorded by Colonists are rated by Zulu academics.

Brett
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90th

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PostSubject: Remembering all those that were KIA 22ND / 23RD JAN , 136th Anniversary   Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:34 am

24th the zulu didnt keep '' Records '' as you know them , it was all oral tradition , I know their Oral tradition is strong , but I cant believe their lists will be as accurate as they believe , the British had actual written Rolls , which are less than perfect at times .
90th
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PostSubject: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:10 pm

I read with no great surprise in another place, that the current
Zulu King had been lobbied over the years to set up a mechanism
whereby as many names as could be traced of the Zulu Warriors
who took part and fell in defense of the old Zulu order, would be
collated, and a lasting nation monument would be built in memory
of these fine brave patriots..along the lines of the War memorials
familiar the world over.

Some would say this task would prove difficult if not impossible.as
the Zulu had no formal literacy system, as the rest of the ' developed ',
world in the last quarter of the nineteenth century had, to varying
degrees, this of course was indeed the case, but the Zulu possess an
amazing oral tradition which passed down information down through
the generations with remarkable accuracy,

It took a white man.. James Stuart, to recognize the vital importance
of recording as much of this oral tradition as he could, and it must be
said, that apart from the few scholars ' in the know ' his work is in
danger of being overlooked and forgotten, as it stands today there is
no likely hood of a permanent war memorial to the Zulu dead from
that time of British Colonial expansionism..

Where are the Zulu scholars? who can collect and record the names
of those brave men? are they content to let their history forever to
be told from the white perspective.. i'm sure that Stuart if he knew
would have recorded as many names as he could..and he left loads
to get one started with.

Finally a link..witch i found quite depressing..as for the trolls in the
' under comment! '. such a sad world in many many ways.. xhosa

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/isandlwana-slain-neglected-zulu-king-1.1808381#.VMQPn_6sWM5
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:49 pm

I agree that if it could be done it would be a good thing. But we should remember that the inclusion of the common soldier in a memorial to the dead is a relatively recent phenomenen in Europe. Nothing was done for the thousands killed in the Napoleonic Wars, or for the Crimea. It has only happened on a national basis since WW1. Before that it depended on regiment or family. So it will only hapen if there is a demand from the grass roots - and in the case of SA there does not seem to be any clamour for it to happen.

Steve
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:51 pm

See Brett's post. Subject: Re: Remembering all  those that were K.I.A 22nd / 23rd Jan 1879. 136th Anniversary.    Today at 6:49 am

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impi

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PostSubject: To merge with Zulu dead   Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:55 am

But, whatever names are recorded as be there by the Zulus, can not really be disputed by anyone.
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90th

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PostSubject: Remembering the zulu dead    Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:09 pm

Impi
I doubt anyone will dispute the names , as who is there to dispute them ? , its not like they have census records or military regimental files , and pay lists etc etc , anyone can basically say they had a relative there , and no-one can dispute it , can they ? , there is no way of checking their authenticity .
90th
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:05 am

Although there are list of names on medal rolls of the Zulus and Basutos who served on the British side during the Zulu War, the only such lists for the Boer War are to be found in The National Archives, and are largely unpublished. Many are meaningless single names of men attached to British regiments.

Nevertheless, they do provide a starting point, so I tried to compile a list of only the Natal Native Scouts who served on the British side during the Boer War. The names of Scouts from two Christian settlements recorded by their own leaders, and which were collected by R C Samuelson, are probably as useful as the medal rolls for Colonial units from Natal. However, like the rolls in The National Archives, the lists of names provided by regional magistrates are far less intelligible and useful, often being only a single forename, sometimes a 'Christian' name, and sometimes a Zulu one. They are useful only in tying these men to a magisterial district or chieftain.

In the hands of Zulu academics from the Universities of Zululand and KwaZulu-Natal using 'oral tradition', I suspect that a reasonably accurate list of the Natal Native Scouts might be compiled. In the case of the Zulu War, for which no written nominal rolls exist for the Zulu army, I would be less confident about rolls compiled solely on 'oral tradition'.

Brett
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90th

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PostSubject: Remembering the zulu dead    Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:43 am

Hi Brett
In answer to your last sentence ' You and me both ! .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:56 am

I think the Memorial would be a matter for the Zulu!
how ever the names were recalled and recorded, the
point is to do something!..i have to smile wryly when
there is talk about lists and roll's.. that's people with
there ' western heads on '. thats the way we do thing's,
if and when the people of KZN get this together i'm
sure they will come up with a more than suitable tribute.

When people say they would be less confident about
rolls solely made up from oral tradition..really..what
has this to do with anybody but the AmaZulu.. how
does anybody think, that anybody but they should be
the ones who decide who they decide to honour..i find
that a bit strange in that we expect them to adopt our
system..how very odd. Very Happy
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:13 am

It is not at all odd, since the Zulus have already adopted 'our' (i.e. western) systems. For example, form of government, language, the necessities and luxuries of life in the modern world (roads, railways, cars, trains etc), medicine, religion ........ the list goes on and on. Spending some time in South Africa could prove to be an eye-opener.

Brett
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90th

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PostSubject: Remembering the zulu dead    Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:14 am

Hi xhosa
I find it all very odd to be honest , by all means let them attempt to honour their dead , I'm not sure many in Sth Africa will agree or think it's worth the expense , and this includes the amazulu themselves from what I've seen and heard , in regards to the free reign spending going on in Sth Africa at the minute . Shocked Shocked
Cheers 90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:39 am

Morning 90th, Bret.
Ah the west is best!, yes i am more than a little acquainted
with modern South Africa.. nobody black or white has the
exclusive rights to greed and corruption i'm afraid!..these
things will continue to play out in that country..its more than
a tad harsh to say..so shall you sow. then so shall you reap..
it gives no normal intelligent person satisfaction to see the
' game ' being played out in reverse.. you all have a very
long road ahead..Madiba is gone, now more than ever voices
of moderation need to be heard.

I would not presume to speak about that wonderful country, i
am of course outside looking in..but history as always can
teach such a lot..i find it more than interesting that the late
bishop of Natal was directly an inspiration for forming the
Zulu movement that turned into the modern day ANC. but
enough this strays to far from the original question.
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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:38 am

Oh,just to highlight more irony, the present and
previous president after Mandela are ZULU'S...
rather fitting really.
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:25 pm

xhosa2000

You seem to be strange and bitter man! With that I sign off as a member of this forum.

Brett
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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:02 pm


xhosa2000

You seem to be strange and bitter man! With that I sign off as a member of this forum.

Brett....said Bret..


I don't know what i said to produce such an extraordinary response..my remarks were
merely observations, and not strongly held political opinions..as a matter of fact i am
apolitical. here in this country with a general election looming i'm disinclined to vote for
any of the clowns we have..what a very strange reaction Bret Hendy..
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:35 pm

xhosa2000, that is the second member we have lost in a few weeks because of you. I personally have had enough of your winding people up. I don't know what your agenda is, but it stops now. I sure there are forums out there that can accommodate your views on whatever. Your membership on this forum is being withdrawn. And I hope those members that have decided to leave return.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:58 pm

agree Lets hope future discussions, can be how they use to be. Brett , Springbok. Don't let him beat you. Your both a 100 times more knowledgeable than he ever was, and more interesting. agree
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:25 pm

Admin wrote:
xhosa2000, that is the second member we have lost in a few weeks because of you. I personally have had enough of your winding people up. I don't know what your agenda is, but it stops now. I sure there are forums out there that can accommodate your views on whatever. Your membership on this forum is being withdrawn. And I hope those members that have decided to leave return.

It was only a matter of time!!!! agree
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:37 am

agree
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PostSubject: Re: Remembering the Zulu dead from the War of 1879   Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Admin wrote:
xhosa2000, that is the second member we have lost in a few weeks because of you. I personally have had enough of your winding people up. I don't know what your agenda is, but it stops now. I sure there are forums out there that can accommodate your views on whatever. Your membership on this forum is being withdrawn. And I hope those members that have decided to leave return.

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