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 Col Anthony Durnford.

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PostSubject: Col Anthony Durnford.    Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:14 pm

By forum member Krish.  agree

Hi, I have joined your group, but wanted to let you know that i am Col Anthony William Durnford's 2nd cousin, and have been writing our family history since King William.
 
Until 4 weeks ago, I like my fellow cousins here in Australia, thought that Anthony was responsible for the death of so many in 1879.  Growing up it was a case of "not mentioning him"
 
I have been a family researcher for 6 years or so, almost full time over the past 2, and have completed most family lines.  When doing my maternal line, I avoided Anthony, and when it came to do his story, I decided to just present both battles, and the bio of Chelmsford and Anthony.    Then I began research, and I became very distressed at what people were saying about him. Not nice at all.
 
I then worked everyone around him, and started with the newspapers as I find there is more truth in those old stories than is found now.
 
I found a series of questions asked by Edward his brother to Chelmsford. It took 30 sec to realise that something was wrong.
 
Research involves steep learning curves, reading everything possible on the subject,  dedication and forming an opinion, asking questions, or Why?   Well my whys were extensive. 
 
I like most have absolutely no idea about what should or should not have been done by whom under the conditions that were faced.  But the battle was a mere snapshot of a life, and it was that 4 hours that was the focus of everyone's opinions.
 
To put the whole story into perspective a thorough knowledge of the background of the person, the events prior to or before,   and an idea of their personality is most necessary.
 
As his direct relative, I had extensive family knowledge again not just bits and pieces picked out of selected stories nearly all of which focused on purported and quite often incorrect material.
 
I deal with facts, and like to prove my Whys  or often to "join the dots".   But in all the 140+ stories of our ancestors, never have I recognised in any of them, many of the same personality traits as I did with Anthony.  I checked with another cousin and he also saw, both he and his brothers similarities.  There were physical similarities also. 
 
I understood many of the things he did, as the ones  I do as well. I call it the Durnford determination.  Anthony had it, but perhaps he was a bit more passionate about the locals, again I had that same passion when living with for 2 years in Bougainville.  Some of them "get under your skin", I had the same types of arguments in 1981 as he did in 1874.  Edward had it, he sought answers to the end, to prove a case for someone wronged.  I have that in me also, and have in my working career undertaken many such issues.
 
 
I have had assistance from Julian Whybra, and I have my copy of the book, coupled with extensive reading of thesis, writings of John Colenso, of Frances her book, Frances and Edwards book, one day my copy of The Chief will arrive, and relevant information from The Ruin of Zululand.
 
What Edward started, I aim to finish.      I have written his story in 20 parts, as the whole family history is still work in progress, I have loaded one story per day.  I am awaiting some further material which I hope will answer a couple of my, at present unanswered Whys.      I knew when I formed my own opinion that I would cop "flack"   - what would she know - etc etc etc  I will be branded as they did of Frances, a "female point of view" .    Having said that, I have also included in the chapters, items from the newspapers which support what is written, my role also I describe as being the "collator of information"
 
Even the Durnford family website is incorrect, as are so many biographies, forums, discussions, etc.  The task is not a small one.  But I am so thankful that as "the keeper of the family story" that we can be proud of Anthony, not shun him as he has been in the past.  
 
Do I think there was a coverup?  Absolutely, was Chelmsford involved? Absolutely.  He couldn't wait to get back to Frere to concoct a story, he rode away so quickly he didn't even appoint anyone to take command
He organised an enquiry or Frere did, all the commanders miraculously wrote their reports almost within 48 hours of battle, except Glyn, did they confer, absolutely, all the stories were the same, he sent a telegraph to London, then holds the enquiry, but makes sure that his despatches, 3 bags/packets, are sealed and shipped to London, arriving after the hearing.  . Did he know the 2.00 am orders would not be found, absolutely, my why is still "In Progress"    20th Aug 1880 he presents a report to House of Lords, 21st Aug the newspapers write a scathing report about Crealocks pocket book, and the differing orders, and state how the pocket book was now with the authorities.  Did Chelmsford know, of course he did.  Then Crealock remains silent, something tipped Edward, he meets Crealock reads the 2.00am order, and proceeds with his now strong case.  Was the order presented and discussed on 21st August the order that Edward saw, apparently not.    What did Crealock do, he said absolutely nothing.  What did Chelmsford do, absolutely nothing.    This is all written, not something I dreamt up, but with family knowledge I can connect some dots that are other's suppositions about events in 1886.     Shepstone, Chelmsford and Frere all hated Anthony.  
 
So you see why I will cop flack.      
 
It is my aim that the chronological narrative of the life of Anthony William Durnford will be the one place where everything that can possibly be found relating to him can be sourced.  
 
I thought it best if I gave you this background, and you can do what you like with it if you wish to start a discussion.  My last post dealt with Bushman's River Pass, and I am coming very close to the events of January, and I guess the aftermath, which is were so much discussion arises. 
 
The site is   www.edurnford.blogspot.com  

William Durnford, and the stories are loaded there as well.  
 
Kris Herron
Hervey Bay
Queensland
Australia.


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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:59 pm

Can't really see anything, that hasn't already be written. Still your work is honourable, based on Anthony being one of your ancestors. However Fanny Colenso failed, along with Edward Durford and Major Luchard. The story of the so called cover-up only came about because the three mentioned above. But take some comfort in that Anthony Durford wasn't solely responsible for the lost of the camp, but he had a part to play.
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:08 pm

looks interesting. bookmarked it to read at my leisure. thanks for the link.
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krish



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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:49 pm

Not sure how the address for the link shows with the William The address does not have William in it another reference using his full title seems to have been joined. I always knew that writing about Anthony would be difficult given what he was supposed to have done. So I just decided the best thing was to present a report on both battles and on both parties, the accuser and the accused from biographies that anyone could view online. But as in all our family, I researched those around him, his wife and his daughter. What was fact and what had been said about them was not correct, I guess then I started to have doubts. Then I started researching and reading newspapers hundreds of stories, and that then changed my perspective. I would have written his story just as I had initially planned, except for the reasons above. Perhaps then honourable would not have applied but with all our g.grandparents over 26 generations, everyone including those surrounding them, were researched and written factually good or bad, sad or sometimes laughable. But thank you for the comments.
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:29 pm

I'm sure there will be more comments. It's an age old debate. People need time to digest your blog! agree
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krish



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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:29 am

I know following events in Chronological order helps, well it did for me
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:56 am

Hello Krish and welcome to the forum.

Maybe historian and forum member John Young would be able to help you with any research on Colonel Anthony William Durnford, it might be worth your while getting in touch with him via the PM service.

I am glad that you realise that Col Durnford was well and truly 'stitched up' by Thesiger, Crealock, Frere, and the rest of the cronies involved in scapegoating and blaming a very brave and honourable officer.

Good luck in your quest.
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:34 am

Martin. She says she "I have had assistance from Julian Whybra" so what could JY add, that Julian hasn't. There's not much to know about Dunford that we don't already know. He name is only in the History books for two reasons. Bushmans river pass and Isandlwana both of which cast him in a bad light.
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PostSubject: Col A.Durnford   Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:57 am

ctsg you obviously dont have enough history books ! .scratch
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:24 am

90th wrote:
ctsg you obviously dont have enough history books ! .scratch
90th Shocked

90th Who needs History book, when we have you!
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PostSubject: Col Anthony Durnford   Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:58 am

Impi your probably correct ! , as you can see ctsg doesnt have too many going by his previous post ! You need to study mo
I do my best . You need to study mo You need to study mo You need to study mo You need to study mo . Glad to see you think there is a need to educate ! Salute
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:13 am

CTSG.
Krish said that she has 'HAD' assistance from Julian Whybra, note the word 'HAD', that is the past tense, therefor Julian may well now be very busy doing his research, etc, for his new work on the AZW, and with John Young also being a very good historian on the subject, maybe he could kindly help Krish out with her research.
It was just a thought, maybe John himself is busy doing a project, but there is no harm in Krish asking him.

Maybe you are not reading enough books on the subject, as in most books, your 'hero' Chelmsford gets the blame for iSandlwana (and rightly so).

90th is right, you don't appear to have enough history books, time to go shopping mate. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:00 pm

Hello Kris

I have been taking a look back through your excellent site and I take my hat off to you. The amount of research and reference material you have unearthed is very impressive indeed.

Where Anthony is concerned, you will find that the people on here have pored over existing texts and have put many interpretations on what they say, and don't say. So you should not be discouraged by those who tell you they have already seen the things you have posted so far.

You will also have noticed that long ingrained loyalties to Durnford or Chelmsford quite quickly surface in the responses you get! That too you should ignore. I think you can bring a unique viewpoint on the proceedings because of your closeness to the subject, both through your wider research and your family connection.

So I very much look forward to your ongoing work on Anthony. From what you have achieved so far, I doubt you need very much guidance on how to go about things from folks on here. But we may just be able to help here and there.

Regards

Steve
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:18 pm

ChelmsfordtheScapegoat,

Twice now you have sought to deride me on this forum. Firstly, when you falsely accused me as being Xhosa under a different guise. Now this, kindly retract your comment above or give up your true identity, it is so easy to make fatuous comments whilst hiding behind a sobriquet.

What could I add remains to be seen, as I am not privy to Krish's research, but it is not for you attempt judge matters on my behalf.

John Young

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:44 pm

No disrespect intended John. I thought you were more of a photograph collector than a researcher.
Julian seems to be more of a researcher, than a collector of photographs. Plus members call on him when it comes to information more than they do you... Like I said no disrespect in-tended...

PS How's the new book progressing?

Give up your true identity I'm of no importance, and don't pretend to be. You can call me Steve.


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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:53 pm

ChelmsfordtheScapegoat,

If you mean no disrespect then remove your comments that I have alluded to.

Hopefully other members of the forum are aware of my research in the field of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879, and the various media in which it has appeared.

John Young
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krish



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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:29 pm

Thanks for the nice comments, and perhaps it might be best to print in detail the events that led the report that is printed or ask the question - why?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:34 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
No disrespect intended John. I thought you were more of a photograph collector than a researcher.
Julian seems to be more of a researcher, than a collector of photographs. Plus members call on him when it comes to information more than they do you... Like I said no disrespect in-tended...

PS How's the new book progressing?

Give up your true identity I'm of no importance, and don't pretend to be. You can call me Steve.



CTSG. I think your find, JY book "They fell like stones" was probably the first book that listed the those that took part in the Battle of Isandlwana. Some what of a foundation for JWs work.
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krish



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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:15 pm

John Young wrote:
ChelmsfordtheScapegoat,

Twice now you have sought to deride me on this forum.  Firstly, when you falsely accused me as being Xhosa under a different guise.  Now this, kindly retract your comment above or give up your true identity, it is so easy to make fatuous comments whilst hiding behind a sobriquet.

What could I add remains to be seen, as I am not privy to Krish's research, but it is not for you attempt judge matters on my behalf.

John Young


John a few weeks back, you were the first person I tried to contact, through a website because I was by then aware of your work, but did not get a response so maybe you didn't get the query , and I am unable to msg you at the moment
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Col Anthony Durnford.    Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:02 pm

Not getting involved
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