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Taff price



Posts : 37
Join date : 2015-02-14
Age : 45
Location : cardiff

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PostSubject: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyTue Mar 31, 2015 11:46 pm

Hi All

Can anyone tell me if Robert Jones V.C. wrote a statement of his accounts at Rorkes Drift?
I know he was in the hospital defending the sick at the time and held the door while their escape rout was dug out of the wall.
I saw a post on the forum (can't find it now) that mentioned him having four assegai wounds and also took a glancing blow from a bullet, but this is all I know.

(Just a stab in the dark) Would there be some kind of medical record for him or any other source information?
Unfortunately he shot himself about six years later so must have suffered from PTSD.

Any help you can give will be much appreciated. Thanks.

Pricey
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyTue Mar 31, 2015 11:52 pm

An Account by 716 Private Robert JONES, VC, 2/24th Regiment.
Published in The Strand Magazine January - June 1891) in the series 'Stories of the Victoria Cross: Told by Those Who Have Won It.'
On the 22nd January, 1879, the Zulus attacked us, we being only a small band of English soldiers and they in very strong and overwhelming numbers. On commencing fighting, I was one of the soldiers who were in the Hospital to protect it. I and another soldier of the name of William Jones were on duty at the back of the hospital, trying to defeat and drive back the rebels, and doing our endeavours to convey the wounded and sick soldiers out through a hole in the wall, so that they might reach in safety the small band of men in the square. On retiring from one room into another, after taking a wounded man by the name of Mayer (sic) belonging to the volunteers, to join William Jones, I found a crowd in front of the Hospital and coming into the doorway, I said to my companion 'They are on top of us,' and sprang to one side of the doorway. There we crossed our bayonets, and as fast as they came up to the doorway we bayoneted them, until the doorway was nearly filled with dead and wounded Zulus. In the meantime, I had three assegai wounds, two in the right side and one in the left of my body. We did not know of anyone being in the Hospital, only the Zulus, and then after a long time of fighting at the door, we made them retire, and then we made our escape out of the building. Just as I got outside, the roof fell in - a complete mass of flames and fire. I had to cross a space of about twenty or thirty yards from the ruins of the Hospital to the leaguered’ company where they were keeping the enemy at bay. While I was crossing the front of the square, the bullets were whishing past me from every direction. When I got in, the enemy came on closer and closer, until they were close to the outer side of our laager, which was made up of boxes of biscuits on sacks of Indian corn. The fighting lasted about thirteen hours, or better. As to my feelings at that time, they were that I was certain that if we did not kill them they would kill us, and after a few minutes' fighting I did not mind it more than at the present time; my thought was only to fight as an English soldier ought to for his most gracious Sovereign, Queen Victoria, and for the benefit of old England.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2573
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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 8:52 am

agree Nice post Graves..
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Kenny



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Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 10:16 am

Pricy
Copies of the documents are held in the Regimental Museum in Brecon - tell them you are coming.

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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 12:38 pm

Robert Jones.
Born in Monmouthshire (then England), in August 1857.
Enlisted into the 2nd Batt, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment 10th Jan 1876, age 19.
After AZW served in India with the 2nd Batt.
Transferred to Army reserve in 1882.
Returned to farm labouring at Peterchurch, Hereford.
Married a local girl Elizabeth Hopkins in 1885, they had 5 children.
Shot himself Sep 1898.
Received his VC from Sir Garnet Wolseley at Utrecht on 11th Sep 1879.
His VC is thought to be with the Ashcroft collection.
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nthornton1979

nthornton1979

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Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 2:34 pm

"Unfortunately he shot himself about six years later so must have suffered from PTSD"

Hi Taff, he died 19 years later in 1898.

Neil
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 4:03 pm

Accidental death!
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nthornton1979

nthornton1979

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 4:23 pm

'Suicide whilst of unsound mind' was the verdict at the inquest.

Neil
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 4:29 pm

He had been complaining of headaches for some time before he was found dead with the shotgun beside him, ie; the verdict was suicide.

His family had been contesting the suicide verdict for some time, saying that the gun had a hairline trigger, I don't know what the result was/is, however, so far as I can find out, the verdict is still suicide, ie; that he shot himself with the shotgun that was found beside him.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Martin,

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
His VC is thought to be with the Ashcroft collection.

It certainly is and is on display in the Ashcroft Gallery at the Imperial War Museum for all to see, alongside that of Jack Chard's.

John Y.


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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 7:54 pm

Thanks for that John.

I know that Faker Baker bought a VC that he thought was Chard's, but then some doubt set in his mind about it and he sold it, however, if I remember right, I think it was later proved to be authentic, so would that be the one bought from Faker Baker by the Ashcroft collection, or has it been in various hands before getting in the collection?

Also John, can you throw any light on if the suicide verdict still stands for Robert Jones VC, or did his family manage to get it altered to accidental death because of the hairline trigger?

Thanks in advance John. Salute
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 8:35 pm

Hi Mr M. Cooper

Have you seen this website, with regards the verdict.
http://www.hibbitt.org.uk/familytree/fam1914.html

No. 40 under Footnotes.

Looks like the verdict still stands for suicide.

Salute
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nthornton1979

nthornton1979

Posts : 153
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Age : 39
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 9:09 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Thanks for that John.

I know that Faker Baker bought a VC that he thought was Chard's, but then some doubt set in his mind about it and he sold it, however, if I remember right, I think it was later proved to be authentic, so would that be the one bought from Faker Baker by the Ashcroft collection, or has it been in various hands before getting in the collection?

Also John, can you throw any light on if the suicide verdict still stands for Robert Jones VC, or did his family manage to get it altered to accidental death because of the hairline trigger?

Thanks in advance John. Salute


This from a friend in Canada:-


"A little bit on the Chard VC...

I held it in my hand (once upon a time ago).

The medal pair was purchased by a long time friend and VC collector in the Toronto area direct from the Stanley Baker estate after his death.

The Chard group (Queens service medals and VC) was well cared for, and 'hidden' in the private collection of my friend for many years. He quietly sold the medals back into England some years ago. He had them for a good 15+ years. (His collection included many famous VC's and probably one of the largest Zulu War collections in this country. He had at least ten officer medals killed at Isandlwana)

Sadly my friend no longer collects medals, having sold his entire collection-except for one Canadian VC for WWII.

I can’t remember which one was deemed to be the copy: The service medal or VC?

Both of these were together in my friends collection. The suspect medal was analyzed by authorities in the UK and determined to be real. When they were sold, they were both regarded to be real. (There was also a small quantity of original material with the medals.) "




And this from the Daily Telegraph 13 June 1996

"VC From Rorke's Drift Shows Its True Metal"

"One of the most famous of Victoria Crosses, long thought lost to the nation, is believed to have been rediscovered.....

When a group of Chard's medals was offered for sale by a London auction house in 1972, [Stanley] Baker made a successful bid of £2,700 [!]. He acquired the campaign medal for Zululand and what was advertised in the catalogue as a "cast copy" of the VC....

[Spink & son] decided to have it subjected to the X-Ray fluorescence process at the Royal Armouries, Leeds, where its metallic characteristics were analysed by the medal expert, Dr Brian Gilmour.... The tests revealed that the copy of Chard's VC is identical in metallic character to all authentic Victoria Crosses. The Armouries and Spink's are therefore satisfied that Baker succeeded in buying not a copy but Chard's real Victoria Cross, made from the mother block.....

John Hayward of Spink, yesterday described the story of the Chard VC rediscovery as "the most extraordinary" in his experience."
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 9:26 pm

I'm sure the living relatives are happy with what they believe happened. They are happy to let Mr Jones VC rest in peace.  And not really bothered what anyone else thinks. And I agree with them.

This should backup my words.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/war-hero-campaign-stopped-family-1918862
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyWed Apr 01, 2015 10:23 pm

Hi 1879 graves.

Thanks for the link. Yes, it looks like the suicide verdict still stands, but like John says, if the family are content to let Robert Jones VC rest in peace, then that should be fine with anyone else.

nthornton1979.

Thanks for the posts about the Chard medals, very interesting indeed.

Cheers.
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Taff price



Posts : 37
Join date : 2015-02-14
Age : 45
Location : cardiff

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyThu Apr 02, 2015 6:55 pm

Thanks Graves, that's a great help, I can only agree with CTSG.

CTSG
You mentioned accidental death. Do you have any evidence for this or is this just your opinion?

Nthornton,
19 years! I was close then. Thanks again. The information I was originally given was by the husband of Robert Jones Gt, Gt, Gt, Gt grand daughter.

Kenny
I've only been to the museum three times this year and didn't know this information was there. I'm currently running a kitchen contract for Powys county council and should be moving back to the Brecon area next month so intend on paying them a visit. I was hoping to bump into Bob who worked at the museum to show him a bullet I bought off someone who claims it was found near the battle field of Isandlwana but I miss him every time.

Mr Cooper
Thanks for the info. Going slightly off the subject though, I've read quite a few posts of yours and CTSG's and is currently reading "Durnford was he capable 5" This is only my opinion (which probably don't mean much to you historians) Speaking with military experience, when a force stops in a enemy's country they form an all around defence which goes without saying. Our military forces have always practiced this. Chelmsford failed to do this when they first arrived at isandlwana. When the first sighting of the Zulus were reported on the 22nd Pulline and his experienced officers failed to do this too. Eventually when Durnford turned up at the camp he did exactly what Chelmsford did and split his forces to chase after zulus and again failed to form any kind of all around defence for the camp. So I feel that all officers are to blame for the disaster at Isandlwana and not just one individual.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyThu Apr 02, 2015 8:32 pm

Chelmsford had already split Durnford's column by having Bengough detached so that he and Durnford could assist LC in the planned attack on the Matyanas. LC also disobeyed his own orders by not entrenching or laagering the camp, and after dashing off on his wild goose chase, Pulleine failed to do anything about defending the camp even after he had been getting numerous reports of zulu's in the area from the early hours of the morning, and by the time Col Durnford arrived, there was little he could do in the short time available. However, he did send out scouts and patrols to try to get better information, reports came in, one of them saying that zulu's were heading in LC's direction, so that is when he decided to set off to try to find out what they were up to and stop them from cutting off LC or attacking him. The fault for not properly defending the camp falls on Chelmsford's shoulders not Col Durnford's, it should already have been properly defended long before he arrived (they had the best part of two days to do this), Durnford only had a matter of an hour or so, and besides, he was not responsible for the camp as he had his own column and his own orders, that was the duty of LC, and then Pulleine after LC had left the camp and gone off chasing shadows on his wild goose chase.
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Rorkes Drift Robert Jones VC   Rorkes Drift  Robert Jones VC EmptyThu Apr 02, 2015 11:47 pm

Taff Price wrote:
This is only my opinion (which probably don't mean much to you historians) Speaking with military experience, when a force stops in a enemy's country they form an all around defence which goes without saying. Our military forces have always practiced this. Chelmsford failed to do this when they first arrived at isandlwana. When the first sighting of the Zulus were reported on the 22nd Pulline and his experienced officers failed to do this too. Eventually when Durnford turned up at the camp he did exactly what Chelmsford did and split his forces to chase after zulus and again failed to form any kind of all around defence for the camp. So I feel that all officers are to blame for the disaster at Isandlwana and not just one individual.

Totally agree. agree
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