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 Durnford was he capable.6

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:19 pm

Steve wrote:
nobody thought the camp was the target

Very Happy No Joker Rolling Eyes
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:42 pm

Bonsoir Steve, Gary and all,
Sorry, I think I misspoke.  scratch  
In others words (from “HCMDB” by M. SNOOK p.159).
“He (Durnford) gave orders for Captain William BARTON to scout the ground (…) with Nos 1 and 2 troops of Zikhali’s horse under Lt Carlie RAW and Joseph ROBERTS respectively. (…) The NNC company at Mkwene hill could be picked up en route to operate in support of the mounted troops (I.E: Not the RB)”

It seems to be a “common practice” to send cavalry (mobile troops) with infantry or RB (slow troops) in support to scout an area in territory enemy.
1°)  DURNFORD took with him cavalry, infantry and a rocket battery.
2°) RAW ( or ROBERTS) took with him cavalry and infantry (I. E: BARRY).

This was the point of my previous post. Wink


Thanks you for your answers.
Steve, I will study your 2nd point.
Cheers
Frédéric

I.E: Bonsoir CTE,
Steve is right, indeed! Nobody thought that the camp was the target, certainly not Chelmsford, Pulleine or Durnford!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:01 pm

Frederic

Cavalry is for attack and scouting, they are not for defence. Mounted Infantry is meant to be good at both, able to pursue and cover ground but also to dismount and defend. The Carbineers were skilled at that but I am not so sure about the NNH. I think you are right that what Durnford did in terms of the mix of available forces was not unusual. But we come back to the severe underestimation of the abilities of the Zulus and the weight of numbers. Nobody dreamed it would take Imperial cavalry and gatling guns to overcome them.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:47 pm

Steve,
Interesting comment about the use of the cavalry. NNH was probably recruiting as scouting...
My post was useful for me "to close a door".
I continue to study the "thoughts" of Durnford, Pulleine and Chelmsford to understand the decisions taken by them this day.
For example, DURNFORD said nothing to his subordinates or Pulleine about the content of the orders given by Chelmsford (somewhere it's strange...).
So we can only speculate how he understood his orders.
Other example: Chelmsford asked no question about Durnford throughout the day of the 22 january.He was not surprised not to see him in the Mangeni or not reveive news from him. Where was Durnford in his mind?. For some reasons i don't think that Durnford was at Isandhlwana in his mind (before to receipt Gardner's message).
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:10 pm

Where was Durnford in Chelmsford's mind is an interesting question. I think he still wanted Durnford to operate with him, but he could not issue further orders until he had found the main Zulu force which he thought was in front of him. I think we sometimes forget that Chelmsford never knew where the Zulu army was. Not at any point - even when Isandhlwana had fallen and Rorke'S Drift attacked. Even when all that was left of the central column was his own force. Even when he was back in Natal. He was never in a position to issue orders for further action to anyone after he left the camp because he never found the enemy.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:21 pm

You wrote: "i think he still wanted Durnford to operate with him".

Why not...
But where? In the Mangeni?
As i wrote previously, Chelmsford was not surprised not to see him in the Mangeni.
So where was Durnford in his mind the 22 january? Very Happy

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:15 am

Frederic

My point is that Chelmsford couldn't tell Durnford where to operate until he found the Zulu force. His idea about operating against the Matyanas had been overtaken by his pursuit of a phantom Zulu army. So I think that in Chelmsford's mind, wherever  Durnford is, he is awaiting orders.

On leaving the camp in the early hours of 22nd in pursuit of the Impi, Chelmsford is effectively putting into doubt his earlier plan to operate against the Matyanas. But all he says to Durnford is to come up to the camp - it is clear to me that he is expecting to issue further orders to Durnford once he is in contact with the enemy - say by about 10 am. This is what Durnford also believes, hence his surprise when there are no orders for him when he gets to Isandhlwana. I think it is now well established that Chelmsford did not think the camp was was going to be attacked and so Durnford was not called forward for defensive purposes.

But Chelmsford had effectively been neutralised as a commander, he was unable to direct further deployment because he had totally removed himself from any engagement with the enemy.  So the order to Durnford never came.

Paradoxically, it is Durnford who identifies what the enemy is doing and he fears for Chelmsford's force. In trying to counter that he finds it is the camp that is under an overwhelming attack.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:46 am

Steve,
To prove your theory, it's necessary to say where was durnford in Chelmsford mind. Salute
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:31 am

No argument from me Steve Salute
90th Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:54 am

Frederic

If you mean where was Durnford in Chelmsford's mind geographically speaking, it depends on the time of day. He was either on his way to Isandhlwana or at Isandhlwana, or, just possibly, on the road from Isandhlwana to Mangeni (if you think the "camp" in Chelmsford's order referred to Mangeni). If you mean where was he in his Chelmsford's mind strategically, I think he was not at the front of his mind at all for as long as he could not locate the enemy. It may be that Chelmsford thought Durnford would come up to Mangeni with the rest of the column but there is no evidence of that and the order was to Pulleine. It seems highly likely to me that, had Isandhlwana not been attacked, Chelmsford would have wanted Durnford to begin scouting the country for the enemy - what else was Durnford's force equipped to do?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:55 am

I don't believe that Chelmsford gave Durnford any thought what so ever after 4 in the morning. He had more than enough on his mind chasing 'will of the wisp' forces around the MANGENI and being bothered by those irksome and incomplete messages. There is no mention as far as Im aware of any conversation or snippet from ANY source that would suggest any level of conversation concerning Durnford. He had been given succinct orders by Chelmsford ( the fact that weren't passed down the line correctly is a different matter) so why would Chelmsford be concerned about him?

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:04 pm

Hi Frank

I think that's right. It is perhaps a little surprising, considering he lacked sufficient scouting capacity, that he did not think about bringing together the mounted forces he had later in the morning. But that is just speculation - no evidence as you say. I think he was content to move the whole force further towards Ulundi and catch up with the Zulu army when he could. He never realised they were behind him. Shades of the pantomime audience shouting Look Behind You!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:48 pm

Steve,
Obviously, i mean where was Dunrford in Chelsmford's mind geographically speaking.
This is the answer to this question which is insoluble...
To be more precise:
-When Chelsmford gave the order to HB to return to Isandhlwana;
-When Chelsmford said to Gardner to return at Isandhlwana;
-Between noon and 15h00 PM.
All possible answers given to these questions are easily questionable.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:44 pm

Frederic

Geographically Durnford could only have been at one of the three places i mentioned, depending on the time of day.  But Chelmsford does not mention him again after 4.00am so we don't know what, if anything Chelmsford thought about his location. One other possibility occurs to me that might explain Chelmsford's attitude. Durnfod was a column commander in the same way that Wood was. Chelmsford was content to let column commanders exercise their own initiative within a broad framework of objectives - he had spelt that out to Durnford in a different context earlier. Perhaps he did not feel the need to issue further orders to Durnford at that point.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Bonsoir à tous,

Hypothesis: Chelmsford wanted Durnford brought up to Isandhlwana to wait for the order to advance further.

So, why Lord Chelmsford did not give him the command of the camp as senior Officer at Isandhlwana?
Clery in the order given par him to Pulleine said: your are in command of the camp during the absence of Glyn.

We know that the orders by Chelmsford to HB and Gardner about the moving of the camp contained any mention about Durnford.
- The 22 January, HB was sent to the camp to help Pulleine for the removal of the camp;
Chelmsford said to him :"i want you to return at once to camp and assist CoL Pulleine to strike camp and come here" (I.E: total removal of the camp)
-Capt Gardner was sent to the camp "with the order to Lt-Col. Pulleine to send on the equipage and supplies of the troops caming out, and to remain at his present camp, and entrench it". (IE: partial removal of the camp).
Durnford was the commandant of an independant column and the senior Officer in the camp.
So, the order to move the camp should have been addressed to him or, at least, contained some information on his role. Crealock was renowned for the precision of his orders.

If the reason to send the 2 orders to Pulleine (about the move of the camp) and not to Durnford was because Chelmsford didn'it know if DURNFORD was arrived at Isandhlwana:
Chelmsford knew the last position of Durnford (RD). He could send a messenger to Durnford (the journey Mangeni-Isandhlwana-RD was on the same road) to inform him of the evolution of the whole plan.
Otherwise CHELMSFORD was totally unable as General: Chelmsford is certainly questionable for the Isandhlwana campaign. It is not the case for the second invasion. Chelmsford was a seasoned staff officer.

It's doubful that the convoy could get to the new camp of Mangeni before the night. il would have to stop in the dark "in the open".
For the the authors, Lock and Quantrill: "The remainder of n°3 column, and Durnford's column wherever it might be, where to stay put it seems until the morrow. despite the enemy being evident in almost every direction, Chelmsford had decided to keep his force split for the next twenty four hours".(p.179 Zulu Victory")

No mission or information for Durnford given by Chelmsford despite the move of the camp, the stop of the convoy during the night in the open, the split of the garisson, with the presence at Isandhlwana of this high rank Officer?

Too much for me, indeed!

cheers

Frédéric

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:29 pm

Again Ymob some very good questions. agree
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:31 pm

It is hard to understand I agree.

It may be that some things are not written down. For example, it is likely that Chelmsford would not wish to regard a Colonel of Engineers (who had charge of a native force) as having authority over a senior line regiment like the 24th, particularly when he had Glyn with him. Unlike at Rorke's Drift, where there was an emergency and only junior officers were involved, there was no emergency (how wrong Chelmsford was) at Isandhlwana. It might not even have occurred to Chelmsford that placing Durnford  at Isandhlwana camp with his own column would have consequences for overall command.Only later would it became a convenient factor on which to hang blame.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:44 pm

I would never have imagined this argument Shocked Shocked Shocked

Steve, you wrote: "for example"

Do you have others arguments in mind?

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:05 pm

It is just the sort of thing that would never be written down so we shall never know, but the senior strata of victorian army society would have very firm views about hierarchy and what was done and not done.

The other factor that I think is worth keeping in mind is the huge amount we do not know about what was said. We are dealing with 8 hours of possible conversations between Chelmsford and his staff once he had left the camp. We probably know of about 30 minutes worth of actual conversations/orders issued, when added together. It ought to be the case that these were the important outcomes of discussion but who knows what has not been recorded. Durnford's further deployment may have been discussed and dismissed. Other orders may have been contemplated and not followed through. We base our conclusions on what we know or think we know - but it is only a partial picture.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:34 pm

Totally agree with your "other factor":
That's why I confront the orders with the actions of those who have received the orders or given the orders.
and the whole picture is often illogic .....
Thank you for the possible argument about the R.E and a line Régiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:32 pm

Steve,
See below your possible argument confronted with orders given by Chelmsford about the camp:

First order: Order to Pulleine: "you are in command of the camp during the absence of Glyn"

-Durnford should not stay a long time at Isandhlwana (the discovery of the zulu was expected in the Mangeni)
-Not zulus attack at Isandhlwana was expected
-Routine at the camp; The authority of Durnford as senior Officer present in the camp is theorical as previously at Rorke's between Spalding and Durnford.

Orders n°2 and 3: orders given to Pulleine to move the camp
We are not in the context of the routine of the camp.
Chelmsford knows that Durnford will take the command as senior Officer (army protocol) and that Pulleine will accept the seniority of Durnford.
So Chelmsford didn't sent the orders to move the camp directly to Durnford as senior Officer in the camp to avoid to offending the sensibilities of Glyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:00 pm

We know that Chelmsford has a poor reputation for staff matters. He was reminded earlier of the proper way to issue orders to Durnford by Crealock. He had, in effect, taken over the command of the column from Glyn. He was still in that mode when he sent orders to Pulleine - they should have come from Glyn. I think he was just issuing orders to whoever he thought should action them. The protocol only became useful at the Inquiry, at the time it had no prominence in Chelmsford's mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:16 pm

rusteze wrote:
We know that Chelmsford has a poor reputation for staff matters. He was reminded earlier of the proper way to issue orders to Durnford by Crealock. He had, in effect, taken over the command of the column from Glyn. He was still in that mode when he sent orders to Pulleine - they should have come from Glyn. I think he was just issuing orders to whoever he thought should action them. The protocol only became useful at the Inquiry, at the time it had no prominence in Chelmsford's mind.

Steve
scratch
It seems we come back to the objections of my post of 8.12PM.
unless i didn't understand your message.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Tomorrow is a new day.

Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:36 am

And this order was delivered correctly.

" Pulleine:you are in command of the camp during the absence of Glyn"

Not in the absence Durnford.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:56 am

Hypothesis "Chelmsford wanted Durnford brought up to Isandhlwana to wait for the order to advance further" (again).
I have some doubt on the argument ("I doubt if Chelmsford gave Durnford a second thought until he got back to iSandlwana") to justify Chelmsford's disinterest about Durnford during all the day after the famous Crealock's order.
At (about) 10:00 am, Chelmsford knew that the Cetewayo's army was not in Mangeni: He was not "stressed" or totally absorbed by the situation in front of him.
After 10 o clock, he was absorbeb by the new camp in the Mangeni and the move of the troops from Isandhlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:57 am

Bonjour Frederic

I think you are right about Chelmsford's concerns after 10.00am. It is about the camp at Mangeni and bringing up the rest of the column. He either assumes Durnford will come up as well, or he does not yet have a clear role for him and so he is not in his thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:14 pm

Hypothesis n°2 : Durnford was on the road to The Mangeni

As you know this assumption is not relevant for me.

#There are no testimonies by Chelmsford or others senior Officers (Crealock / Glyn / Clery) or staff officer "junior ( Milne, Buller, Gosset) about "their surprise" not to see him in the Mangeni during the day.
Chelmsford learnt that Durnford was stayed at Isandhlwana only about 3h00 PM the 22 January with the receipt of the Gardner's message (from memory)".

#According to HB and CREALOCK(during the "famous picinic around" 10 am the 22 january).
HB was sent back to Isandhlwana by CREALOCK/CHELMSFORDto help Pulleine (for the move of the camp) and toto control the line of communication between Isandhlwana and the Mangeni."in case zulus were hanging about near the camp" (Crealock's statement to the COI).


If the Durnford's order in Chelmsford's mind was to go to the Mangeni (and to control the line of communication), why did Chelmsford give to HB the same order?

Happy to be corrected on my two assumptions.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:47 pm

rusteze wrote:
Bonjour Frederic

I think you are right about Chelmsford's concerns after 10.00am. It is about the camp at Mangeni and bringing up the rest of the column. He either assumes Durnford will come up as well, or he does not yet have a clear role for him and so he is not in his thoughts.

Steve

Hello Steve,
So your point of view is that Chelmsford didn't send message to Durnford because Chelsmford didn't have a clear role for him between 10AM and 3 PM (receipt of the Gardner's and Pulleine's messages)?
Despite:
- the move of the camp (of Isandhlwana);
- the stop of the convoy during the night in the open;
- the split of the garisson;
-that Durnford was at Isandhlwana still waiting furthers orders all the day.


As Officer of high rank (I.E: Durnford), no need for CHELSMFORD's to inform him of a change of the plan.

We are speaking about a General of the British army, no? Very Happy

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Frédéric






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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:56 pm

Your other view:
Durnford will comes up to the new Mangeni camp.

Without receving new instruction...

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:04 pm

It is a puzzle and it feels like a piece is missing - which is perfectly possible.

You can see why some people think Durnford was ordered up to Isandhlwana to reinforce the camp and become integrated with the force Chelmsford left behind. That would accord with Chelmsford not issuing any further orders to him. But we know that is not what Durnford was ordered to do - perhaps Crealock got it wrong and omitted a vital part of Chelmsford's  order - Durnford was not to know that and perhaps Chelmsford didn't know it either. But it does not account for Chelmsford continuing to address orders to Pulleine later in the day.

After the events of the day Chelmsford does not express any surprise that Durnford was present at Isandhlwana and took part in the defence. He does not say he had ordered him to do anything else. So, at least by then, in Chelmsford's mind Durnford had been at Isandhlwana.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:13 pm

Steve/Frederic
I would suggest the key that needs to be explored, and should lead to Chelmsfords mind set, is what was the message Chelmsford 'thought' had been sent. Clery is the key to that, possibly a re read of his various statements could shed light.
Once that area becomes clear Chelmsfords thoughts/non thoughts on Durnford start to clarify.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:20 pm

Steve and Frank,
Relevant arguments.
New puzzle tracks
Thank you for your help.

Are you both agree with the hypothesis that in Chelsmford's mind, DURNFORD was not on the road to the Mangeni?
Cheers.

Frédéric
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:09 pm

I'm not sure you can be as categorical as that. So far as Chelmsford is concerned, Durnford could have been on the road to Mangeni when he spotted the enemy and turned north to meet them.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:02 pm

So the arguments given are not relevant for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:27 pm

Frederic

I think the arguments are relevant. But we cannot know for sure because Chelmsford does not mention Durnford in the written record after 4.00am. My guess is that Chelmsford thought Durnford was at Isandhlwana, but it is only a guess.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:08 pm

Durnsford's roll was to move to the camp. To either Streathen or reinforce. He would have received orders from Lord Chelmsford if anything else had been required of him. Of course if anyone can show other orders, that shows Durnford was required to protect Lord Chelmsford rear. I would be very interested. The truth is as the title of the topic suggests. Was Durnford capable or not. The sarnario's and what if's just complicate issues and takes us further from the truth. As I have said before, Durnford was a Braveman but gambled not only with his own life, but those under his command. He lacked the experience to handle an action the likes of Isandlwana, the end result speaks volumes.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:48 pm

CTSG

That may have been what Chelmsford intended but, as we all know, that is not what the order from Crealock's hand said. Exploring what might have happened and looking for supporting evidence (hard as it is to find) is what makes the discussion interesting and what this forum is all about. Are you suggesting we simply accept your version of events and drop the subject?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:23 am

All you need to do, is look at the Clery evidence, he states what Chelmsford had wanted with Durnford.
You may find it interesting with the what if's and sarnario's but as I have said, it move's us away from the truth.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:46 am

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
All you need to do, is look at the Clery evidence, he states what Chelmsford had wanted with Durnford.
.

Bonjour,
With this sarnario, it's terrible for Chelmsford! Very Happy
Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:32 am

CTSG
No I don't believe it does move us away from the truth, whatever that is.
I do agree with you that the Clery evidence is pretty crucial as it was he that was entrusted with the ORIGINAL instruction from Chelmsford. The Chinese whisper put out by Crealock is in no way representative of what Chelmsford had intended to be sent.
Ergo my statement that what Chelmsford THINKS he had sent in the way of instruction is the key issue to understanding the events of later in the day. Clery wrote on a number of occasions that Durnford had been called to iSandlwana to reinforce the camp so without a doubt from his point of view that was what he understood Chelmsford wanted. This is self evident from the letter of the 17th February sent to Colonel Harman. What tends to negate THAT statement though is when he continues writing and spells out the instruction he left for Pulleine informing him that he would be in charge of the camp during the absence of Col Glyn. So the conundrum, if Clery was so confidant that Durnford had been ordered to Reinforce the camp then by pure military protocol he would assume command, not Pulleine, Clery as an instructor and professor from military collage would be more than familiar with that. So why did he do that?
As Frederic has pointed out messengers from Chelmsford were addressed to Pulleine, but who would have written those messages? Crealock or Clery? Gardner merely says he was sent with an order from the General addressed to Pulleine. If this order was written by Crealock then the possibility exists that he KNEW that Durnford had not been ordered to reinforce that camp ergo it was addressed to Pulleine.
So my money is on the order being issued by Crealock to the man in charge of the camp, Pulleine.
Coming back to the issue in question therefore, Chelmsford was content that he had issued an order that Durnford would reinforce that camp, no advance to Mangeni or any other issue. Purely reinforce the camp. He was not to know until much later ( possibly at RD a couple of days afterwards) that the order he DID issue had been lost in translation.
Of course the possibility does exist that Clery disliked Crealock and was very loyal to Glyn and so would do what he needed to do to protect him, even to fabricating evidence?
All grist to the mill of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:22 am

Frank

You say that it is clear Clery believed the order told Durnford to reinforce the camp because he consistently says that in correspondence. I think we need to check from what point he is saying that (before or after the CoI) before we decide.

What you say about Chelmsford believing he had issued that order may or may not be the case. If he did think that, it accounts for there being no further order from him to Durnford. But if Chelmsford did not intend to include the instruction to reinforce the camp it allows for all of the subsequent instructions going to Pulleine.

The third scenario (sorry CTSG) is that Chelmsford and his staff did not conflate Durnford assisting in the defence of the camp with his taking command as senior officer. I tend to think that is the most likely, it just never occurred to them. That allows Chelmsford to believe he has issued an order to Durnford which includes reinforcing the camp, and continuing to address orders to Pulleine as camp commandant.

That is the interesting conundrum.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:06 pm

Steve
The first letter I can pick up from Clery is the 17th February, the COI was of course on the 27th January. There are a further 5 or 6 references from him in a similar vein. That allows me the luxury really to believe that Chelmsfords order (although not transmitted) did include for Durnford to reinforce the camp. That being the case there is no reason for Chelmsford to have given him a second thought, and would I suggest explain to a degree some of his statements over the next few days. The fact that his man Crealock screwed things up and didn't transmit what he should does of course set the tone for the rest of the 22nd.
All theorising I know, I do wish that Clerys note book would turn up. In there would I hope be the record of what order he was taking under dictation from Chelmsford, and indeed the order directed at Pulleine.
We can but hope.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:18 pm

But of the orders that should have been sent, Clery's would have made the most sense ie Reinforce / Strengthen. I would base this on what Glyn was leaving behind when he led half his column out with Lord Chemlsford.

The only order that, caused the scapegoat issued was the order sent by Crealock, and lied when he states he ordered Dunford to take command. ( We know he did not ) but regardless of wether or not he was ordered to take commaneases really neither here of there. Durnford did take command ( As per army tradition) But there is no mentioned in any of the orders discussed, that tell's Durnford to leave the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:41 pm

CTSG
I was really more concerned with trying to address Frederics 'state of mind' questions with regards to Chelmsfords thoughts on Durnford. In a nutshell my thoughts lead me to believe that as far as Chelmsford was concerned he had issued a very straight forward order to reinforce the camp therefore he would have no doubt that Durnford would obey, considering the rebuke he had earned a few days before. As we know the order was corrupted in transit without the caveat of reinforce therefore again leaving Durnford free to act in his capacity as an independent column commander. The bugger is the corrupt message and its interpretation by the various actors.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:59 pm

CTSG

Yours is as problematic as all the other permutations.

Clery's order only makes most sense if you believe Chelmsford was concerned about the camp being attacked. All of the evidence says he was not.

I think it does not help to mix up Durnford taking command and what the order said.  Clery's order to Pulleine said "You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn".And "Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp". Nothing about Durnford taking command, in fact the opposite.

Do you think Chelmsford wanted Durnford to take over half of Glyn's column? I don't.

I therefore agree that Durnford taking command because of a protocol is neither here nor there. It comes back to Frederic's question. What was in Chelmsford's mind regarding Durnford's deployment?

Steve


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:05 pm

Bonjour à tous,
Frank wrote: “Clery wrote on a number of occasions that Durnford had been called to iSandlwana to reinforce the camp so without a doubt from his point of view that was what he understood Chelmsford wanted.” (…)
What tends to negate THAT statement though is when he continues writing and spells out the instruction he left for Pulleine informing him that he would be in charge of the camp during the absence of Col Glyn. So the conundrum, if Clery was so confidant that Durnford had been ordered to Reinforce the camp then by pure military protocol he would assume command, not Pulleine, Clery as an instructor and professor from military collage would be more than familiar with that. So why did he do that?
(…) messengers from Chelmsford were addressed to Pulleine, but who would have written those messages? Crealock or Clery? Gardner merely says he was sent with an order from the General addressed to Pulleine. If this order was written by Crealock then the possibility exists that he KNEW that Durnford had not been ordered to reinforce that camp ergo it was addressed to Pulleine.
So my money is on the order being issued by Crealock to the man in charge of the camp, Pulleine.

Maybe, no necessarity. For the same “mysterious” motivations which led Clery to write to Pulleine that he was at the command of the camp during the absence of Glyn it's possible that it was CLERY who sent the furthers Chelmsford’s orders to Pulleine.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:48 pm

Frederic
I would have to disagree, Im pretty sure Crealock guarded his position quite zealously and would in the NORMAL course of work be responsible for sending instructions on behalf of Chelmsford. Clery would perforce have the responsibility of handling Glyns communications. But heres an interesting point, if Crealocks diary/note book was found at iSandlwana how would he expect to act as military secretary to Chelmsford without it on the advance to Mangeni? In similar vein why didn't Clery have his with him? So whos diary/notebook was used to send the message with Gardner? And why hasn't it survived?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:51 pm

Perhaps Crealock lost the note book when he returned and spent the night at Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:10 pm

Going off at a different tack, I've always thought it odd (not to say suspicious) that the returning force removed themselves with such indecent haste from the battle site. The subsequent inordinate delay in returning to bury the dead is also very hard to explain in my book. I know about the excuses at the time, didn't want to spook the troops etc., but I don't altogether buy it. Might warrant a separate discussion ?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.6   Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:42 pm

Lucky they did though, or RD would have gone down in the history books as another Zulu victory.
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