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Zulu Dawn Film Lt. Col. Pulleine: Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col. Durnford: Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected. It might be wise to picket the hills.
 
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The Death of Lt. Frith, 17th Lancers.
Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? Screenshot-20190305-200950-Gallery-181x240 At eZungeni, Zulu War of 1879" original painting by Hermanus Willem Koekkoek (1869-1929) (Isandula Collection)
Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift 22nd January 2019
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyWed May 06, 2015 4:21 pm



I hope the link works

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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyWed May 06, 2015 7:44 pm

Ciroferrara,

Personally I would say not. According to F.W.D. Jackson the photograph was taken in 1872, I believe Anstey joined the battalion in 1873.

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1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1872.
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyWed May 06, 2015 8:07 pm

It looks uncannily like him to me :S i can pick out a few of the chaps in the photo but not all.
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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O. Anstey   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyWed May 06, 2015 9:02 pm

I believe Anstey's hair was more Curlier than the Chap in the link ? .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyWed May 06, 2015 9:30 pm

90th,

You mean like this?

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Lt. Edgar Anstey 1st/24th
John Young Collection.

As opposed to this?

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1st/24th officer 1872.
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John Y.
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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O. Anstey ?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 1:47 am

Hi JY.
Got into Durban last night . Yes , that picture was exactly what I was thinking of .
90th Salute
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 11:49 am

The shape of the ears, the rounding of the chin and the slight drooping of the eye lids are the same?
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 1:18 pm

I agree there is a likeness. Do we know when in 1873 he joined the regiment?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 3:17 pm

Hi Steve

9th March 1873, From Army List 1878.

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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O.Anstey    Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 3:46 pm

I'm not sure the Chin is the same ?? . But I'm no expert in facial recognition ! .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 4:22 pm

Hi Gary - glad you've arrived safely - keep up the commentary!

JY
I have a record of you posting the group photo some time ago as part of a different discussion on RDVC. You noted then that it must have been taken between March 1872 because Cavaye has joined and March 1873 because of the presence of Corcor.  

Based on Graves note from the Army List, could it just about be E O Anstey I wonder?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 5:19 pm

Ive spotted porteous, melville, mostyn but which chap is cavaye? im still convinced its anstey
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PostSubject: Is this Lt E.O.Anstey    Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Hi Steve
Got some books today Steve at a decent price , very happy . Off to the Durban Natural History Museum tomorrow , hopefully . Isandlwana Saturday . Weather today 24 deg and sunny , you cant beat that .
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 7:24 pm

90th are you able to send photo's from where you are. It would be easier to post the photo's in small numbers rather than 500 odd.
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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O.Anstey    Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 7:53 pm

Sorry Admin , no clue , sorry .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 10:23 pm

90th,

Take it easy if Mrs 90th is with you!

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1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1872.
John Young Collection

I've number all in the group here but stick with those I know, hopefully the numbers are legible:
1: Lt. F. P. Porteous - K.I.A. Isandlwana.
2: Capt. G. V. Wardell - K.I.A. Isandlwana.
3: Lt. C. W. Cavaye - K.I.A. Isandlwana.
4: Major H. J. Hitchcock (who took the name Degacher), commanded 2nd/24th in Zulu Campaign.
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:

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1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1872.
John Young Collection

1: Lt-Col. R. T. Glyn - please note Glyn is wearing a single crown indicating the rank of Lt.-Colonel, again this is a good date indicator as he was promoted to Colonel on 13th February 1872.
2: Lt. T. Melvill, K.I.A. Fugitives' Drift, Natal, awarded the Victoria Cross.
3: Hon. Major F. F. White, K.I.A. Isandlwana.
4: Capt. W. M. Dunbar, served initially as a Major in 1879 with 2nd/24th, subsequently assumed command of 1st/24th during the Zulu Campaign.
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:
13:
14: N/A
15:
16:

Please ignore No. 14 - the text figures were too small and it has been a busy day with the election!

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Fri May 08, 2015 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 10:46 pm

Mister Young,
There is Major Upcher on the photohraphy....
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ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 07, 2015 11:26 pm

Ah Mostyn is number 12
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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O.Anstey   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyFri May 08, 2015 3:49 am

Hi JY
Luckily no Mrs 90th on THIS trip ! .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyFri May 08, 2015 9:22 am

90th,

What books have you picked-up?

Ciroferrara,

No that's the chap which David Jackson stated was a Chillianwala survivor. I believe that might be Quartermaster William Charters.

Can you confirm the receipt of my PM?

John Y.

By-the-way in 1872 Mostyn was in the 2nd Battalion, rather than the 1st Battalion according to the Army List.
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90th

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PostSubject: Is this Lt.E.O.Anstey    Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyFri May 08, 2015 2:39 pm

Hi JY
Tylden's ; ' Armed Forces Of Sth Africa ' , Smails; ' Historical Monuments & Battlefields in Natal & Zululand ' with it's dust jacket ! , Laband's ; ' Buffalo Border 1879 ' , Morrison's ; Durban A Pictorial History ' , the following are readily available , a Hard cover ' Capt Carey's Blunder , and Knight's ; Osprey Zulu War 1879 ; Twilight of a warrior nation , excellent prices so I got those two , I have a paperback Carey's Blunder . Saw some of the rarer books but I have them already , I didnt check their prices ie , Sonia Clark's Zululand at war , Crealock's ; The road to ulundi , among others whose titles escape me .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySat May 09, 2015 10:50 pm

John Young wrote:
90th,

What books have you picked-up?

Ciroferrara,

No that's the chap which David Jackson stated was a Chillianwala survivor.  I believe that might be Quartermaster William Charters.  

Can you confirm the receipt of my PM?

John Y.

By-the-way in 1872 Mostyn was in the 2nd Battalion, rather than the 1st Battalion according to the Army List.

About Mostyn, number 12 ( the first photo)?
By the way, There are two photographies of thé 2nd battalion un India c.1871 with pope, pulleine, younghusband, church, bannister, sugden...
Mostyn is not on these two photographies...
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySat May 09, 2015 10:53 pm

Upcher number five the first photography?
Cheers
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySun May 10, 2015 12:16 am

Ymob,

Yes I go along with Russell Upcher based on the image in Gon's book as No. 5.

William Mostyn had very large chin dimple where as No. 12 lacks one.

Regards,

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySun May 10, 2015 8:49 pm

John Young wrote:
Ymob,

Yes I go along with Russell Upcher based on the image in Gon's book as No. 5.

William Mostyn had very large chin dimple where as No. 12 lacks one.

Regards,

John Y.

Bonsoir Mister Young,
Thank you very much for your answer.
For SNOOK ("likes Wolves on the fold" / Ron Sheeley collection), HARRISSON is the eighth from left (standing)
Sorry, i can't see his  number "in red" on your photography.
What is your opinion?
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySun May 10, 2015 9:01 pm

Mister Young,

The Chillianwala survivor might be Quartermaster CHARTERS? Or, The Chillianwala survivor and CHARTERS are not the same man (the man between Glyn and Dunbar)?.
Sorry if i didn't understand your sentence in your post.
Cheers
Frédéric
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptySun May 10, 2015 10:36 pm

Frédéric,

Sorry it is the subtlety that you might not understand.  I have use italics to indicate that my assumption was a conjecture, although Charters is a plausible answer.

Obviously Dr. Snook had ready access to the archives at Brecon, so if he identifies the officer standing behind Glyn, and to Melvill's right as Harrisson, I presume he has concluded his findings based on photographic evidence.  However, he does also identify the officer as 'Mostyn', who I do not believe to be Mostyn due to the absence his chin cleft.  Even the engravers of The Graphic & Illustrated London News included this physical feature.

Regards,

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyMon May 11, 2015 12:05 am

Mr Young,

About Mostyn, actually, i noticed his chin dimple in the engraving of him in your book "they fell like stones" (from "the illustrated London News" i suppose ? / I.E: I have read before the note about "the illustrations") and in others photographies of him.
About William CHARTERS:
I understood that your assumption was a conjoncture.
In others words, my question was about his presence or not at Chillianwala.
I searched his name in "the historial record of the 24th (...)" from Patton (and others).
His name is not in the list of the Officers in 1842, 1858 and 1865.
His name appears for the first time in the 1872 list as Quartermaster.
As you know, a Quartermaster could be a NCO before being promoted Quartermaster, as Pullen and Bloomfield in the 24th or M.J Kenny in the Connaught Rangers.
Thank you for your patience.
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyMon May 11, 2015 8:48 am

William CHARTERS, a veteran of Chillianwallah (13 January 1849), was commissioned as Quartermaster from Sergeant Major on 18 July 1862. He enlisted in 24th on 5 June 1844 and retired as a Captain on 30 June 1877. I believe he went to Canada and acted as a Army Paymaster for other British Army veterans who had emigrated there.
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyMon May 11, 2015 11:10 am

Kenny wrote:
William CHARTERS, a veteran of Chillianwallah (13 January 1849), was commissioned as Quartermaster from Sergeant Major on 18 July 1862. He enlisted in 24th on 5 June 1844 and retired as a Captain on 30 June 1877.  I believe he went to Canada and acted as a Army Paymaster for other British Army veterans who had emigrated there.

Bonjour kenny,
Thank you very much.
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey?   Is this Lt. Edgar Oliphant Anstey? EmptyThu May 03, 2018 11:48 pm

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On left is Coghill and in uniform on right is Anstey (By Crewes and Son)

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