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Zulu.Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?

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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 11:27 am

rusteze,

Are you saying that QV was irrelevant with regards to military matters or are you saying that she was irrelevant because it was a constitutional monarchy. Didn't she have influence over matters regarding the poor and their housing (Royal Commission on Housing) she was influential in mediating on the issue of the Irish Church Disestablishment Act of 1869 and the 1884 reform act. She was a firm supporter of the British Empire, she supported improvements within education and Hospitals, the list goes on. In my opinion QV was never irrelevant.
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rusteze

rusteze

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 11:53 am

What I am saying is she was irrelevant largely because it was a constitutional monarchy (exactly as it should be).  I am not saying her heart was not sometimes in the right place, but I am not aware of any significant move on her part that went against anything the government wanted to do, particularly if it was a Conservative government. I am not sure what being a firm supporter of Empire means. if it means maximising the returns to the UK, upholding a British way of life, "civilising" the natives and protecting the trade routes with the Royal Navy then yes I think she was. In terms of relevance to this forum I don't think her endorsement, or otherwise, of military strategy has any basis in expertise and should not be regarded as significant. Perhaps inconsequential is a better word than irrelevant.

Steve
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:01 pm

I think she supported Lord C simply because she liked him. It was not a decision, based on any other considerations.

Purely my opinion of course.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:06 pm

rusteze,

I'm in full agreement with you on the term 'inconsequential'.

Waterloo
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:11 pm

Martini-Henry wrote:
I think she supported Lord C simply because she liked him. It was not a decision, based on any other considerations.

Purely my opinion of course.

I reckon your right with that, QV was apparently very vocal in private about who she liked and didn't like. LC was on the 'like list' I guess LC couldn't put a foot wrong in her eyes.
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90th

90th

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Should LC have fallen in line with B.F's desire for war    Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 4:02 pm

Dave I was replying to ctsg's post where he thought she was the greatest Queen England ever had , or because of his sloppy punctuation he may have been referring to Frank as the best Queen England's ever had , which doesnt make sense he's the Queen Bee of Sth Africa !! Very Happy . Hope this made sense to you ? . Shocked
90th
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John

John

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 6:47 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
I do wonder however if Victoria was influenced by Mr Brown on this issue as much as on others?
CTSG your a pratt. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Frank that's not nice.. I remember time when he stuck up for you.
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John Young

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 8:07 pm

All this ballyhoo reminds of the 1882 satrical work Mrs Brown and King Cetewayo, by Arthur Sketchley.

John Y.
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John

John

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 8:18 pm

Luckily Mr Brown was Scottish and not Welsh.. Hey Martin!
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 8:23 pm

No no one wants to be seduced by a Welsh hoax!
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 8:36 pm

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Steve
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ADMIN

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:11 pm

PDF copy if anyone wants a read.

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptySat Jul 25, 2015 4:22 pm

John wrote:
Frank Allewell wrote:
I do wonder however if Victoria was influenced by Mr Brown on this issue as much as on others?
CTSG your a pratt. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Frank that's not nice.. I remember time when he stuck up for you.

Sticks and Stones John.

Funny really as I stuck for frank only the other day.
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waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 27, 2015 6:12 pm

Meanwhile Lord Chelmsford was urgently burying all the evidence that could be used against him. He propagated the myth that a shortage of ammunition led to defeat at Isandlwana. He ensured that potential witnesses to his errors were unable to speak out. Even more significantly, he tried to push blame for the defeat onto Colonel Durnford, now dead, claiming that Durnford had disobeyed orders to defend the camp. The truth is that no orders were ever given to Durnford to take command. Chelmsford's behaviour, in retrospect, is unforgivable. Many generals blunder in war, but few go to such lengths to avoid responsibility.


Saul David


Last edited by waterloo50 on Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dave

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 27, 2015 10:35 pm

The above Written by Saul David.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 27, 2015 11:49 pm

Dave wrote:
The above Written by Saul David.

Yep, its not something I would say,



Waterloo
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Dave

Dave

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 7:00 am

Helps to name the source. If you know it.
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 7:18 am

I'm sure it was an oversight Dave.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 10:16 am

Hi M/H

It was an oversight, copied and pasted from my old notes, didn't include authors name, it wasn't deliberate. I was just throwing it out there!


Regards

Dave
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ymob

ymob

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 10:21 am

Bonjour waterloo,

scratch

See your post (yesterday 7.12pm), you cited the name of the author (Saul David)!
Cheers
Frédéric
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 11:38 am



Bonjour ymob,

Kind of you to point out that I had cited the author but I did so only after an edit, my mistake.

Kind Regards

Waterloo

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war?   Should Lord Chelmsford have fallen in line with Barle Frere's desire for war? - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 28, 2015 11:41 am

Don't worry, it's not a real problem! Wink
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