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Lieutenant Lionel Algernon White, 53rd (Shropshire) Regiment / Commissariat & Transport
Character of the Men - Page 2 Screenshot-20190204-194613-Gallery-181x240Isandula Collection)
Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift 22nd January 2019
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 Character of the Men

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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2246
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm

Were there still survivors at Isandlwana late in the afternoon of the 22nd when Chelmsford was waiting for Glyn’s troops to come up and join him before returning to the camp?

Answer by IK on this forum:

"Almost certainly. There are a couple of Zulu references to soldiers either holding out a long time or hiding or playing dead, and only being discovered during the looting which followed the fighting. There are also suggestions that a few individuals from the NNC had managed to slip through the Zulu cordon at some point (probably by passing themselves off as Zulus) and joined Chelmsford on his return. So it’s very likely that there were a few survivors still alive until quite late in the afternoon. It is a sobering thought that they might have been watching Chelmsford come up, and been trying to hold on".

So for IK, only few survivors still alive at the arrival of Chelmsford.
The "timeline" again...
Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 1988
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 63
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi. May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead. That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him. Just my suggestion.

John Y.

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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2246
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm

Bonsoir Mr YOUNG,
Always happy to learn!
Cheers
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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Age : 40

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:11 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

Just to correct you and your source W. H. Aynsley's rank was Signalman 1st Class, rather than 'Signaller'.

Littlehand,

There were no Gatling Guns at Khambula, apart from Nyezane the only other battle that the Zulu came under fire from Gatlings was at Ulundi.  May be you are confusing Khambula with Ulundi.

John,

Private Johnson in his statement states that Russell was shot, but he doesn't say that he was shot dead.  That might account for why Durnford ordered him to go back and fetch him.  Just my suggestion.

John Y.


So what we saying Durnford was blind and couldn't see for himself what was unfolding.
He soon moved to the safety of the Camp. Leaving the poor soldier to retreat on foot albeit there was a spare horse.
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littlehand

littlehand

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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:32 pm

Thanks John. It's was Ulundi.

Statement by Zulu page 100

click here
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waterloo50

waterloo50

Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyWed Sep 09, 2015 11:43 pm

A question for Frank,

I have just watched your footage 'Isandlwana Younghusbands retreat, at 0:54 you pan your camera towards a point on the mountain and comment that 'after coming down from his last stand against the mountain' at that point in the footage there is a rocky outcrop above a grassed area which I assume is where Younghusband was. My question is, have you managed to take any pictures from that vantage point and how high do you estimate that area to be above the camp?

Many Thanks

Dave
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 12:24 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 8:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:07 am

Frank,

That is a great help.

Many Thanks

Dave/Waterloo
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2246
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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:47 pm

Frank,
Many thanks for the photography.

About the "timeline" (Charge of Younghusband / arrival of Chelmsford).

According to Ian Knight (p. 446 / Zulu rising):
"The long afternoon passed. All firing had long since stopped at Isandlwana and dark smudges on the slopes of the iNyoni escarpment suggested that the Zulus were now retiring.
"Towards evening", said Browne "i saw a small body of horsemen riding towards us. On using my glasses i discovered that it was the General and his staff and i at once mounted and rode to meet him".
After the meeting with Chelmsford, HB said to him "the camp has been taken Sir " and "the camp was taken at about 1.30 PM" (Zulu rising p.446)
So, according to Ian Knight and Hamilton-Browne, the fightings at Isandhlwana had been ceased long before the arrival of Chelmsford:Younghusband could not have seen the arrival of Chelmsford force before his charge.

In another statement (Paton: "Historical record..."p.237), Chelmsford with Hamilton-BROWNE met Lonsdale.... about 3.30 PM (Hill of the Sphinx p.51)!!!

Cheers
Frédéric

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:10 am

Hi Frederic.
I don't have access to the library at present but we are back to the notorious time gaps and discrepancies again.
There is a Zulu statement that puts the last fighting as a group of men on the mountain slopes and one on the saddle. And of course the statement that one of the Zulus watched as the column advanced to the camp.
There is also the Zulu statement that puts the fighting as extending to late in the afternoon.
Then of course the issue with Lonsdale blundering into the camp and making haste to meet up with Brown etc.
It was still full daylight when Chelmsford and his mounted men reached Brown and advanced towards the stream and then waited for his column to arrive.
Sorry about the lack of direction above but I shall be able to put names and estimates to all the above as soon as Im back in Cape Town, or maybe Im just daydreaming again? Very Happy
In the meantime Im sure you will with your normal diligence be able to beat me to it.

Regards mon ami Salute
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 3:39 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Possibly this may assist. The view from Younghusbands assumed last position across the plain.

A few other areas that could assist in orienting: The road heading of to the plain rosses a line of trees, those mark Durnfords donga. To the left is a small village, when on the battlefield that village is invisible and occupies the position 90th refered to some time ago as being a dead area that one of the forward companies advanced out of the line to get a clear shot into.
The cairns on the battlefield mark the progress of the battle from the firing line up towards the saddle, to the right and of camera.

Cheers

The memorials on the lower ground in the distance,would those chaps have been fighting or dead at the time Younghusband was making his way along the ridge.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 4:58 pm

Hi Dave
Always difficult to bring the battle down to individual time frames but my guess would be they had already been over run.
They are the furthest points from the mountain so would have been Popes men and possibly Porteous on retreat.

Cheers
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2246
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: Character of the Men   Character of the Men - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 10:19 pm

Bonsoir Frank,
My first point (I.E: Knight / HB) was against your hypothesis but my second point (3h30 / "Historical record...") was in favor of your case.
Unfortunately (I.E: for me), i have no time presently to study your point of view.
Your hypothesis is challenged not only by knight but also Lock and Quantrill (Zulu Victory).I do not know authors who have advanced the same assumption...
Therefore, your bold theory arouses my interest, i am curious to read your arguments.

I.E: I am agree with you, the "time" given by HB for the arrival of LC is probably wrong.

Amitiés.
Frédéric
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