Latest topics | » Colonialism: A Moral LegacyToday at 5:25 pm by Julian Whybra » Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!Today at 11:37 am by lydenburg » Writing adviceTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at largeWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash » Sergeant W E Warren RA - VeteranTue Mar 19, 2024 9:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu DawnTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra » 100,000 posts!Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory » Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra » British rations and moraleMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra » Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private HaganMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and IsandlwanaWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra » William J Hoare 24th Regiment??Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash » Swinburn Carbine issue in AZWThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D » Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young » Philip Price Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra » Alfred Fairlie Henderson Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds » August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879Thu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan » Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra » Letter of officer during Zulu wars.Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra » About the second invasionTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th » Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024Sat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young » Watford band boys killed at iSandlwanaFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra » Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th » Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997 » What was the distance?Thu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan » Mrs Henry HookTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny » "With 6 good riflemen"Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper » What was G company supposed to do?Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra » Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William WylieFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young » South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60thFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody » Weatherleys Border Horse FlagThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie » Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-TynteTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg |
March 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:49 pm | |
| Bonjour, There was some doubts in the past on this forum ("Durnford was is capable 5" / feb. 24 2015/ Frank Allewell/ Julian Whybra...) about the testimony given by Gardner and his last comment "entrench it": "I left the force with the General about 10.30 a.m., and rode back to Islandana [sic] camp with the order to Lt Col. Pulleine to send on the camp equipage and surplus of the troops camping out and to remain himself at his present camp and entrench it".
On this subject there is an insteresting comment given by Glyn.
In a third memorendum, dated 26 february, Glyn responded at some length to Crealock's comments (...): "The only order, to my knowledge, sent to the Officer commanding the camp at Isandhlwana that day was one issued by order of the Lt Gl to send out the tents, etc, of the force with the Lt Gl to the place where that force was to form a fresh encampment. Major Clery took the Lt-Gl's instructions to this effect down in his note book, and tore out the page on which they were written and sent it into camp. Major Clery informs me that he read over this message to the Lt Gl before sending it, to make sure he quite understood what His Excellency required done. He further adds that this message had reference to nothing except what concerned a part of the camp. Captain Allan Gardner, 14th Hussars, was given this message to take into camp, and Major Clery states that he read this message over with Captain Gardner, as he gave it to him, to ensure his knowing its contents should any accident happen to it."
Source: Quoted from"Dead was everything" by Keith I. Smith
For Glyn, no instruction given to Gardner about the defense of the camp ...
Cheers
Frédéric |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:46 pm | |
| It's a good point Frederic. There is a clear discrepancy between Gardner's evidence and Glyn's statement. I have double checked the originals at Kew and they are exactly as quoted so it is not a transcription error. Gardner does not seem to be strongly supporting Crealock/LC's line however - the main point he makes is that if a cavalry regiment had been available (or a few squadrons) they could quite easily have prevented the Zulus flanking movement around Durnford and hence avoid the defeat. He is of course a cavalry man! But he does not give the impression he is part of any attempt to blame Pulleine for not entrenching. So, how to explain the discrepancy?
Steve |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:14 pm | |
| Steve, I'm pretty sure Glyn wrote what he thought was the truth about the order given to Gardner for Pulleine: his memoredum intervenes in full debate about the blame for the disastrous ( a "fight" between him and Chelmsford-Crealock). How to explain the discrepancy? Maybe the memory of Gardner is simply deficient? (personally, I am not convinced by this hypothesis ) For example, in his official evidence to COI (only given a few days after the disastrous) Gardner was to recall: "i may mention that a few minutes after my arrival in camp, i sent a message directed to the Staff Officer, 3rd Column, saying that our left was attacked by about 10.000 of the enemy". Actually the content of the message was (as you know): "Heavy firing near left of Camp. Sheptone has come in for reinforcements, and reports the Basutos falling back. The whole force at Camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank". Alan Gardner, Captain, S.O. (Quoted in "death was everything" by Keith Smith) In his official evidence to COI, Gardner gives an impression of immediate danger for the Camp ("our left was attacked by 10.000 of the enemy"), which is not the case in the real message he sent... Cheers I.E: Last week, i made my first order to the "National archive" for a copy of reports on the Zulu war. I am impatient to receive it!!! |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:46 pm | |
| About the point "if a cavalry regiment had been available" there are some thoughts on this subject by Damian O'Connor in his essay "The missing cavalry ; A footnote to the history of the AZW" but i am Cheers |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:20 am | |
| From Steve (24th February 2015 / Durnford was he capable 5):
Chelmsford wrote to Bartle Frere on 23 January to inform him of the disaster at Isandhlwana. In it he says the following.
"The troops left in camp consisted of five cos. 1/24th, 2 guns RA, about 20 Mounted Infantry, 30 Mounted Police and 30 Natal Volunteers. The whole was under the command of Lt. Col. Pulleine 1/24th.
The rocket battery under Capt. Russell RA and five troops Mounted Basutos, the whole commanded by Colonel Durnford RE arrived at the camp in the course of the day that the camp had been attacked.
I had previously sent direction... (word illegible) the camp struck and moved to the point where the force was then operating against Matyan."
So no mention of a partial packing up, or entrenching for those who remained. He reports that he directed the camp to be struck. |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:42 am | |
| Lord Chelmsford minute statement, 19 march 1879 /TNA WO 33/34 Enclosure i in n°101/ "After captain Gardiner [sic] had delivred the message regarding the sending out of the tents and camp equipment to Lt-Col Pulleine at about 11:30 a.m. , it would seem that the latter Officer sent a message back to the effect that he was not able to carry the order at that time. This message was not received until quite late in the afternoon of the 22 January 1879, and as it contained no allusion to any danger from attack or any request for assistance, i feel that my assumption that no danger was anticipated must be correct". (Quoted in "dead was everything" p.144) Again, no mention of entrenching the camp for those who remained... I.E: Frank: about your hypothesis (Younghusband), note that "This message was not received until quite late in the afternoon of the 22 January 1879" Cheers Frédéric |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:12 pm | |
| In conclusion:
1°) Gardner certainly never receipted a message for Pulleine with the sentence about the camp "entrench it";
2°) Only a moving part of the camp was planned (at this moment);
So the question, why this sentence ?
As Steve wrote: "Gardner does not seem to be strongly supporting Crealock/LC's line however" and " he does not give the impression he is part of any attempt to blame Pulleine for not entrenching".
-Today i gave an explanation (faulty memory);
-Frank Allewell wrote: "For Chelmsford to order the camp to be entrenched is completely illogical. It makes no sense at all. I would hesitate to accuse, but I don't believe that message came from Chelmsford, at that time". (24 february 2015 / "Durnford was he capable 5?")
-Mr Julian Whybra wrote: "Frank, For what it's worth I am inclined to agree. But still we are left with Gardner's exact words. Perhaps he was repeating hearsay from those around LC before he left the Mangeni. Perhaps it was supposition on his part. As this was part of his evidence at the CoI, Chelmsford would have been able to correct the statement, but he didn't. It's something which has to be borne in mind. A piece from a different jigsaw perhaps? History can be like that at times.(24 february 2015 / "Durnford was he capable 5?")
Other suggestions?
Cheers.
Frédéric |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:22 pm | |
| I am not sure this adds anything but here is Gardner's written statement. Note there is a correction. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]copyright National ArchivesSteve |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:47 pm | |
| Nice paper! I can't read the word crossed out under "himself".... Cheers I.E: i measure all the suffering in deciphering the copies of the original reports expected from the N.A..... |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:51 pm | |
| Some are not easy to read. The word crossed out is "myself".
Steve |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:00 pm | |
| Thank you Steve. It seems to me that "Myself" in the context of the sentence is also possible...but its changes nothing... Cheers |
| | | | Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |