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 When should you listen to a Bishop?

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rusteze

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PostSubject: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:37 pm

Been looking through the Blue Books and came across an enclosure in C2242 that I have not seen discussed before.

Included in a report from Bartle Frere to Hicks Beach is a record(signed off by George Shepstone and forwarded by Durnford) of a report made on 8 January to Bishop Schrueder and J E Fannin by two christian natives from Ekumeni who had been sent by Cetshwayo with a private message for Bartle Frere.

One particular passage stands out :"He (Cetshwayo) said he had no objection to the different columns (which he enumerated) marching into his country, and he would see by their conduct whether the wishes expressed by Sir Bartle Frere and the other Amukosi were sincere. The only stipulation he made was that there should be no digging (throwing up earthworks). This would show it was intended to take the country."

What an interesting remark, given what LC did not then do at Isandhlwana!
More on Schrueder later.
Steve
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:15 pm

Bonjour Steve, all,

Just a precision: “When war seemed imminent SCHREUDER had moved to another mission he had established on the Natal side of the border, at kwaNtunjambili near Kranskop. From he he had worked closely with the local border agent, Eustace FANNIN, gleaning from his spies, as war finally arrived, something of the Zulus intentions” (Zulu Rising p.224)

Here are some examples of the intelligence received by Lord C from Special Border Agent (Source:  the Rorke’s drift forum / Peter Boyle / Col. A.W.Durnford  A great man? A hero?)

1 Jan 79 ) Fannin, Umvoti District
"My informants say that the King's orders still are that no resistance is to made near the border if the country is invaded.
...On arrival at Mabehla's, near the ferry, they saw the force collected there, and which I reported yesterday. They inquired what it was doing, and were informed that a Zulu, who been in Natal,...had spread a report that a force would cross at the ferry last night. They had assembled to prevent it... the force assembled was about 400...
The visible presence of the Zulu force yesterday, and the absence of any government force, begot an uneasy feeling among the natives near the river...I thought it well that the military authorities should know how desirable it was that there should be a force nearer the border than Pott Spruit, and I therefor rode over myself to the camp there. Finding that his Excellency the Lieutenant-General was present, I had an interview with him, and learnt that Colonel Durnford's column would arrive here to-day..."

That same day from Agent Robson, Buffalo River
"...I hear from a reliable source that the tribe of Matyana Mondisa...and Dwaba have been sent to reinforce the tribe of Sirayo on the border, and to prevent, at all risks, the entrance of the troops into the country. My informant saw Matyana's people start for the border ; in fact he came some distance with them. These men lie at night all along the Buffalo, from Rorke's Drift to its junction with Blood River, and thence about two miles along the latter. Before daylight they retire, leaving only a few scouts. Matyana told my informant that, the sight of the tents, even at the distance they are now, made him mad ; and that, if they came down to the bank of the river, he should certainly attack the troops, without waiting for their crossing the river. This may be only boasting, but it is well known that both the tribe of Sirayo and that of Matyana are burning to try their strength with the English. Large parties of mounted and armed Zulus may be seen riding from point to point.
My Police estimate the force of Zulus on the river at from 4,000 to 5,000 men."

2 Jan 79, a report from Agent Fannin, Middle Drift
" The Zulus are still watching the border here. They can be seen in bands of from 50 to 100 at different points along the river. A large party always sleeps on watch in the open air, opposite the ferry-boat.
I yesterday saw one of Bishop Schroeder's converts, who had just arrived from the Tuhlazatye mission station. He states the Zulu King is making no preparations to comply with the demands made on him. My informant stopped the night with the armed party who were watching the ferry. They made no objection to his crossing in the boat, and stated that they were there only for defensive purposes. The Tugela keeps at about the same level ; it is too deep to be crossed, except by experts. Makedama has had some of his people watching the river banks during the last two nights.
have got eleven new police enrolled...
The advanced guard of Colonel Durnford's column arrived at Krans Kop yesterday ; the remainder are encamped some miles in the rear."
Fannin again, 5 Jan 79
"I have the honour to report that the Tugela has risen again, and is now quite impassable. Small parties of Zulus are still watching along the river. I yesterday saw a party of 10 watching at the ferry ; only one of them had a gun. They shook their shields at us, and said, "When are you coming over here? When you do, we are going there," pointing towards Pietermaritzburg..."

I have got a complete return of all the refugee women and children at Bishop Schroeder's. He has drawn mealies for their support from the Commissariat, under arrangements made with the General...
Colonel Durnford has completed the cutting of a bridle path through the bus between Krans Kop and Middle Drift..."
Fannin, 6 Jan 79
"...The Zulus are keeping strict watch on the river...They frequently shout defiance to the police, and point their guns at them.
The river is impassable...
the natives are displaying a good loyal spirit. The preparations being made by Government have given them confidence."

9 Jan 79, Colonial District Commander and Resident Magistrate, Umvoti County (Wheelwright) to Colonial Secretary.

"The river is very full now, and will probably keep so for some time. From information brought in by some of Bishop Schroeder's people it would appear that there is a chance of a revolution in Zululand and that the headmen of the nation seemed determined to arrest and give up both Sirayo and his people, and also pay the fine to the Natal Government. They represent Cetywayo as being in a very depressed state of mind, and apparently very much inclined to come to terms. If any reliance is to be placed upon what Schroeder's men say, there will be no resistance offered to our forces crossing the Tugela. However, I shall take the precaution to have a body of men assembled at each of the seven drifts named on my list on the day the native column crosses, both to take the attention of the Zulus from the crossing column, and also to be prepared to render assistance if necessary. News has reached me to-day of the crossing by Colonel Wood of the Blood River. I have seen Bishop Schroeder, and he appears to place great dependence upon the information brought in by his people. They say Cetywayo has given orders for all his younger men who are excitable to go up to him, and only the older men are to stay at the kraals along the Tugela, in order to avoid any risk of a collision with our forces. This all appears as if he did not wish war."

11 Jan 79 Fannin to Colonial Secretary
"Yesterday a native I had sent into Zululand to gain information returned and made his report.
He penetrated about 20 miles into the country beyond the Tukanhla forest. The greater part of the men were at their kraals, the others having gone to attend the Umkosi dance.
A short time ago the King sent a message forbidding the border population assembling in arms and opposing the advance of the troops. Mabehla sent back announcing the arrival of Colonel Durnford's column here. The King sent again two days ago, reiterating his order not to resist. He said the troops were coming on a friendly errand, and were not to be molested. The women were to continue weeding the crops, and the cattle not to be removed from the kraals. The troops would come on to him. He would give up Sirayo and satisfy other demands, and there would be no war.
The people did not believe this. They ask why should the Government forces enter from so many different points if their errand is a peaceful one? On former peaceful missions they came at one point only. They have obeyed the King's order so far that they have relaxed their watch on the river. They do not now sleep at the ferry, as they have been wont to do of late.
My informant took note of one very significant act of the Zulus. Two very old men, named Manxobo and Bilibana, who live near the Tugela, and are unable to walk, have this week been carried away on men's shoulders to kraals on the edge of the Inkanhla forest for safety. Manxobo is Chief of the tribe living opposite this, Mahbelha, his son, being in charge. Bilibana is also a man of consequence."

11 Jan 79 Telegraphic - from Border Agent, Lower Tugela to Sec. Native Affairs
"My spies just reported large Zulu force congregated at John Dunn's late residence, "Emangeto." Been gathering for the last three days, I believe. The information last three days I believe reliable. I have detained the Zulu messengers by order of officer commanding Lower Tugela column."

15 Jan 79 Fannin
"I have the honour to report that two natives of Nodada's tribe have just been brought to me...
They state that it is true a force is ordered to be in readiness at the Inkanhla Bush, to dash into Natal as soon as the different columns are fairly away from the Border. Two doctors are on their way down to prepare the men for war, and intercourse with the women is forbidden. The Ingobamakosi regiment is mentioned as likely to be told off for this service, in addition to others whose head-quarters are near this.
The Zulus are aware that the greater part of Colonel Durnford's force have been removed from Krans Kop, and that an insignificant force has been left.

The intelligence of the passage of Colonel Pearson's column only reached the natives living opposite here last evening, and does not appear to have had any effect yet in the way of disturbing them. The cattle are certainly not being removed. My informants think many are only waiting for the Tugela to fall to take refuge on this side. They repeat the old story that Cetywayo orders his forces not to molest the troops until they kill a Zulu, or begin to dig, either at fortifications or repairing roads."
15 Jan 79 Fannin
"With reference to my Minute of this date...the two natives from whom I received this information, arrived just before the post closed, and I had, therefore, only time to give a hurried and imperfect summary...I now propose to give the same more fully...
My informants went to Zululand sometime ago on private business. Being among friends, and one of them being laid up with a swollen foot, they delayed until yesterday, when they were told it was no longer safe for them to remain, because two Zulu doctors were daily expected to perform the ceremony of sprinkling the people for war. The spot they were staying is near the Inkanhla bush, and the doctors were about to sprinkle for war all the tribes living near this Border.
When my informants left, the news of the passage of the Tugela by Colonel Pearson had not been received...
They report that it is a common topic of conversation among the Zulus that a force is to be collected at the Inkanhla bush, for the purpose of making an inroad into Natal ; and it is said the Ingobamakosi and Umcityu regiments have been selected for this service.

They confirm what I reported before, that Manxondo has been carried to a kraal at the edge of the Inkanhla bush, and it appears Mabehla is there also. Most of the young unmarried men of the border tribes have gone to the King's kraal, but others are still at home. They heard a great deal of warlike conversation, and every confidence was expressed that they would prevail in the coming conflict. At the same time it was acknowledged the principal men of the nation were opposed to being dragged into war to protect Sirayo and Umbillini from the consequences of their misdeeds. The other terms of his Excellency the High Commissioner never seem to be mentioned ; all seem to think Sirayo's matter the only one of consequence, and if that were settled, all would be well. A native from Entumeni, with some women and children, has also arrived. He reports that on Sunday several of the men from the station took down part of the cattle to the Lower Tugela, where, seeing the troops cross, they sent back at once for the remainder. He hopes they will get all their cattle safely out of the country. He says the troops will certainly be attacked if they shoot a Zulu or dig, either for the purpose of entrenching themselves, or repairing the roads.
My opinion, formed from all I hear is, that although there is strong feeling against the war among some of the chief men, because they think it might have been avoided by giving up Sirayo and Umbillini, still, the great bulk of the nation will support the King in resisting the invasion of their country. The war clamour will drown all other cries, and they will have to sullfer severe reverses before submitting.
As regards the Natal frontier, should the Tugela and Buffalo rivers be passable, I quite expect to see raids made for a few miles into the Colony ; but I think it improbable that an inroad will be made with any large force. The intention of assembling such a force at the Inkanhla no doubt exists, but the King's plans will be changed once when he finds our forces in possession of great part of his country. At the same time, it is quite necessary that the possibility of such a thing happening should not be lost sight of. From the heights here, at Krans Kop, the whole of the wooded range of the Inkanhla is visible, and with a good glass, the native kraals and cattle can be seen. Strict watch is now being kept, and it is thought, if any large body of Zulus should assemble their fires will be seen. Every effort will be made by me to obtain intelligence from Zululand, but now that hostilities have commenced, I fear there will be few opportunities of doing so.
I received a letter from Mr. Fynn early this morning, giving the intelligence that there had been a collision with Sirayo's people. This was not yet known by the Zulus living opposite here up to yesterday evening. They betray no signs of uneasiness ; the cattle are still at the kraals.
The Tugela is falling fast, but is still far from passable.
One thing I have omitted. The natives state that a few days ago a Zulu force from the two tribes of chiefs, both bearing the name Matayana, and from the tribe of Faku and Undhlali was assembled near the Qudeni bush, opposite the Umoringa Mountain."

16 Jan 79 Fynn
"Zulunge, Frontier Border Police, states : Yesterday at the request of the Zulu Chief Gamdana Ndabinjani, Frontier Border Police went across the Buffalo to interview him and was accompanied by five natives.

Gamdana wished to thank the Government for the protection offered to him, and said he had sent messengers to the military authorities at Rorke's Drift. His young men had deserted him, taking all his cattle, and driven them to Mangeni, a deep kloof on the eastern side of the Malakata, where large numbers of cattle have been collected.
Gamdana said that some Zulu indunas were on their way to the authorities here, and heard of the fight at Sirayo's, and went back. He feared that the Zulus would now advance against the English and attack him. He would come over the Buffalo to-day or to-morrow."
18 Jan 79 Fannin
"This morning, one of Bishop Schroeder's natives with my permission, started to Entumeni. After crossing the Tugela, he noticed all the kraals deserted by the men and most of the cattle had been taken away. He learnt from the boys that they had all assembled in the Tukanhla Bush to be sprinkled for war. Also that the Umcityu and Nokenke regiments were assembling there, making a formidable force. He was so alarmed at this that he at once returned. This intelligence is of great importance, as the river has fallen considerably, and is now passable at some of the best fords.
I have also just received intelligence from the Tugela, at this side of the Qudeni Bush. At the ford there known as the Emtongeni, Mr. A. Pretorious is stationed as European leader. Yesterday a Zulu headman or petty chief named Mbaso called out across the Tugela that he had a communication to make. Mr. Pretorious and a native from this side crossed on foot with the help of two professional watermen (the ford is a remarkably wide and good one). On his return, my police learnt that Mabaso and another headman named Tamana had asked Mr. Pretorious to write to Government and say they wished protection..."

20 Jan 79 Fannin –
"One of the ferrymen has just come to report that to-day a Zulu with whom he is acquainted, called to him across the river, and asked for snuff. On hearing this, thinking it was an excuse for making communication, he rowed the boat to near the opposite bank, and entered into conversation. The Zulu informed him that Cetywayo, when he heard that Sirayo's tribe was defeated, and that the troops were across the Lower Tugela, became very angry, and at once ordered out his army, one column to attack Colonel Glynn and another to attack Colonel Pearson. Their orders are to attack at once and drive them back. Oham and Umnyamana are kept at the King's kraal, to ensure their fidelity. It is thought the attack will be made on the columns to-day. At the Inkanhla Bush are assembled in arms the men of some of the border tribes. They are watching our movements, expecting our forces to cross here.
On Saturday night one of the police noticed three bands of Zulus, numbering together about 100 men, approach the river from the direction of the Inkahnhla Bush. They patrolled along the river for some time and went into a kraal. The police gave notice to the nearest European leaders and the nearest kraals of Makedama's tribe, and a watch was kept on the river during the night.

The information given to the ferryman may or may not be true, but I think it well to report all for his Excellency's information. From other sources, as I have already reported, it is said that two regiments are at the Inkanhla Bush in addition to the border population.

The Tugela has fallen, and is passable at the best fords.
Mr.Crabbe, the European leader at the ferry reports, I hear the Zulu army is drawing near, but have seen nothing myself."

20 Jan 79 Fannin
"I have the honour to report that reliable information has just arrived from the Zulu country that the following regiments of the Zulu army are marching to attack Colonel Glyn's column, namely :--
(1.) Unselwengu, one battalion married men.
(2.) Undi, one battalion married and one unmarried.
(3.) Umbombongwenya, one battalion married and one unmarried.
(4.) Uzigosi, one battalion married.
(5.) Umbonambi, one battalion married.
(6.) Ingobamakosi, one battalion unmarried.
They started from the King's kraal on Friday evening last, but would probably be detained by the cold weather.

The following regiments have been sent to attack Colonel Pearson's column, namely :--
(1.) Isiqupe, one battalion married and one unmarried.
2.) Uhlamhla, one battalion married.
3.) Veluqusa, one battalion.
(4.) Umbelebele, two battalions.
(5.) Ubulawayo, one battalion married.
(6.) Umcityu, One battalion unmarried.
This latter force also left the King's kraal on Friday night, and the man from whom I obtained the information accompanied them as far as Kusamaquaza, where they slept on Saturday night, suffering very much from cold and hunger. They had not heard Colonel Pearson had moved, and were marching straight to the Lower Tugela drift.
The same informant tells me that the force collected at the Inkanhla Bush consists of the border population only. Oham, Umnyamana, and the King's brothers are detained by Cetywayo at his kraal, to ensure their fidelity. The King appears to have been misinformed as to the strength of our columns, and believes them to be much weaker than they actually are.
My informant is from the Entumeni Mission Station, and Bishop Schroeder vouches for the authenticity of his report.
I have sent this information to Colonel Pearson and to the officer commanding No. 2 column, with the request that he will forward it to Colonel Glynn."

Question: is it possible that Shepstone was sent to CHELMSFORD by DURNFORD the 21 january to put this report in the hands of the General (meeting of 21 January between Shepstone and DURNFORD)?

21 Jan 79
"...I am of the opinion that the Zulus mean to have a fair trial of strength with us. If beaten the army will most probably scatter, and instead of returning to the King each man will make for his own home, and the different tribes of which the Nation is composed will make terms independently of each other.
...If the Zulu army fails in its attacks on our columns I think all fear of an inroad may be dismissed.
I have also learnt from these men that the Amaquliseni Regiment, about 4,000 strong, have been ordered to oppose Colonel Wood's advance.
The strength of the force sent to meet Colonel Glynn is estimated at from 12,000 to 15,000, and of that sent to meet Colonel Pearson at from 8,000 to 10,000 men. There was one slight error in my Minute of last night. The force sent to oppose Colonel Pearson slept on the other side of Kwamagwaza on Saturday night. On Sunday, while marching, they were overcome by the cold at Kwamagwaza and would remain there until Monday morning. Many of the men were ill from dysentery, brought on by a full meat diet indulged in after the long continued scarcity of food."



CHELMSFORD considered FANNIN and the others offical of Natal were not credible informant:

In a letter to the Duke of Cambridge (11 april 1879), CHELMSFORD wrote: “Bishop SHROEDER and Mr FANNIN have been the originators of all the wild reports regarding contemplative raids – imaginary attacks upon Ekowe etc etc – and I look upon their information, based as it is upon Zulu reports, as utterly unreliable” (p. 147 Laband, Lord Chelmsford Zululand Campaign)

See also letter from CHELMSFORD to FRERE, 21 January 1879 (Chelmsford papers, NAM, London, 27 enc.2 in n°4)
Cheers.

Frédéric

IE: In the letter of the 21 january to FRERE CHELMSFORD stated that he didn't believe a single word of the report from on an important enemy force regrouped in the bush Inkandla. For CHELMFORD, Mr. FANNIN like many other officials Natal is an alarmist who is unable to predict what the enemy will do or not do, he imagines the danger where there is none. (Chelmsford papers, NAM, London, 27 enc.2 in No. 4)

(I.E: Sorry, i have lost my original copy in English . I have only found my translation in French).

Frédéric
Cheers
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:22 am

The above is already on the forum.

You should name the source.
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:43 am

Ray, read again my post, i name thé source.
All, sorry if my post is already on thé forum.
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:06 pm

It is clear from the foregoing that Chelmsford had a serious blind spot when it came to intelligence from Bishop Schreuder. And this was amply illustrated a few days later by his injudicious reprimand to Durnford when he had taken some notice of the Bishop.

At the end of the report enclosed with C2242 Schreuder gives some good advice. He says "
"A revolution is clearly imminent and from this report it would appear that good positions might be taken up (by Chelmsford's columns) by taking advantage of the present mood of the King before the outbreak that will certainly follow on the umkosi when the young regiments will demand to be led against the invading forces."

This was received on 10 January and forwarded to Bartle Frere for information the same day by Crealock who added " The state of confusion mentioned is confirmed from other quarters".

So, wise counsel from the Bishop and re-inforced by other intelligence known to Crealock. What "good position" does Chelmsford then take up 10 days later?  Isandhlwana - undefended.

It is not as if Chelmsford had any kind of  handle on the capabilities, intentions or location of the Zulu force opposing him. So when should you listen to a Bishop?

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:05 pm

ymob wrote:

IE: In the letter of the 21 january to FRERE CHELMSFORD stated that he didn't believe a single word of the report from on an important enemy force regrouped in the bush Inkandla. For CHELMFORD, Mr. FANNIN like many other officials Natal is an alarmist who is unable to predict what the enemy will do or not do, he imagines the danger where there is none. (Chelmsford papers, NAM, London, 27 enc.2 in No. 4)

(I.E: Sorry, i have lost my original copy in English . I have only found my translation in French).

Frédéric
Cheers

"I do not believe MR FANNIN's report about a large force approaching from the Inklandhla bush. Mr FANNIN, like a great many other Natal officials, is an alarmist and not being able to appreciate what an ennemy can do and what he cannot do, see danger where really there is none".
Letter to Sir Bartle Frere, dated 20 January.

Source: "Studies in the AZW" by Keith SMITH, p.26 (quoted in C.T. BINNS, "The Last Zulu King", 1963, p.164)
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:52 pm

"In the years following Cetshwayo's installation, Schreuder acted as an intermediary between the Zulu king and the British authorities in Natal. In the war that eventually broke out he offered his services, in the interest of peace, to Zulus and British alike. Sir Garnet Wolseley, commander-in-chief of the British forces during the Anglo-Zulu War, reportedly wanted him to act as a spy for the British, however Schreuder refused."

Why could he be trusted to give correct Information. Your on one side or the other. You can't be on both and be expected to be trusted.
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PostSubject: When should you listen to a Bishop    Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:22 am

Ulundi have you ever heard of Neutrality ? , I'm thinking that's what Schreuder had in mind , by then remaining Neutral , I believe Schreuder who was a man of the cloth , could've been trusted .
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:16 pm

If he wanted to remain neutral, why was he feeding Durnford information?
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PostSubject: When should you listen to a Bishop    Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:29 am

Impi
If he fed Durnford '' reliable '' information he would be classed as a spy from the Zulu point of view , did Schrouder ever actually pass on any reliable information to Durnford , or was it a matter of his '' own '' opinion , which therefore could be taken with a grain of salt ? . Can you produce the reliable information that Schrouder purportatly passed onto Durnford ? . Information being classed as reliable ...ie ; being something that Durnford acted upon , that had a detrimental effect on the Zulu nation.
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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:49 am

Remember Bishop Schreuder was Norwegian, he owed no loyalty to the British government. His mission (right or wrong) was to bring christianity to the native people by the best means he could and there was no doubt that he supported the British cause as the best means of ensuring that his missionaries could continue their work. He had a vast amount of knowledge about the zulus and had known Cetswayo's father as well as Cetswayo himself. He did not trust Cetswayo. It is clear from the extract from the parliamentary paper I quoted in my earlier post that he advised Bartle Frere and Chelmsford to quickly get the British columns into good positions in Zululand before the younger regiments were sent by Cetswayo to oppose them. That is hardly being neutral. It is also clear that Bartle Frere had some regard for this advice as he sent the very lengthy report back to London which was subsequently published in Hansard. The real sadness is that LC's shortsighted arrogance with regard to good advice about the abilities and locations of the Zulu forces led him to make fatal errors. Schreuder was far too wise to become anything so crude as a British spy, he could be far more effective and useful by keeping a foot in both camps. Durnford understood his value, Chelmsford did not.

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PostSubject: When should you listen to a Bishop    Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:53 am

Yes , that makes sense .
90th
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:20 pm

I have been following the post on Schreuder with great interest, I really don't have anything to add to the debate but it occurred to me that 90th's comment about Schreuder's neutrality by virtue of him being a man of the cloth may be something that should be considered as a real possibility, having said that, the evidence of Norwegian missionaries pushing for control of the Zulu nation is evident, The Anglican missionary Robert Robertson wrote anonymous letters to the local press branding King Cetshwayo as a cruel and bloodthirsty despot and a foe of Christianity.' The Rev. O. C. Oftebro of the Norwegian Mission­ary Society strengthened Sir Bartle Frere's case for war with the Zulu King­dom by offering his solution in despatches to the Colonial Office: "Nothing less  than  the  disarming of the  Zulus, the  breaking up of their  military organisation, and the appointment of a British Resident to watch over the strict upholding of treaties, will, in  our humble opinion, settle  the  Zulu question satisfactorily.""


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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:19 pm

Ian Knight makes an interesting reference to Schreuder in Zulu Rising , he says.

"During the difficult years of Mpande's power struggle with his ambitious sons, Schreuder proved a useful ally to him and a touchstone of white opinion. He had remained on good terms with Cetshwayo after Mpande's death but in fact, like most Zululand missionaries had played a double game, betraying his relationship with his hosts by secretly lobbying for Natal's intervention."

It is very hard to ascertain a mans motives and you may well be right that his actions were a simple reflection of his christian values to save life. But the missionaries viewed their work as the crucial means by which many thousands of Zulu lives might be saved through conversion and this could only be done so long as they had access throughout Zululand. I don't think they were averse to sacrificing the more blood thirsty chiefs and their followers to achieve that aim.

Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:46 pm

Hi Steve,
I was in the process of adding some further thoughts to my last post when my computer went on the blink and some of my comments were deleted, I wanted to add the fact that there is also plenty of evidence to suggest that not all Christian missionaries had the welfare of the Zulu at the heart of its work.
The Anglican missionary Robert Robertson wrote anonymous letters to the local press branding King Cetshwayo as a cruel and bloodthirsty despot and a foe of Christianity.' The Rev. O. C. Oftebro of the Norwegian Mission­ary Society strengthened Sir Bartle Frere's case for war with the Zulu King­dom by offering his solution in  despatches to the Colonial Office: "Nothing less  than  the  disarming of the  Zulus, the  breaking up of their  military organisation, and the appointment of a British Resident to watch over the strict upholding of treaties,  will, in  our humble opinion, settle  the  Zulu question satisfactorily.""

Source:On a Tough Missionary Post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

in Zululand

The Life Experiences of the Missionary Friedrich Volker according to the notes of his wife.
HERMANNSBURG 1928
Edited by Charles Ballard

Translated by Helen Feist



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impi

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PostSubject: Re: When should you listen to a Bishop?   Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:28 pm

90th wrote:
Impi
If he fed Durnford  '' reliable '' information he would be classed as a spy from the Zulu point of view , did Schrouder ever actually pass on any reliable information to Durnford , or was it a matter of his '' own '' opinion , which therefore could be taken with a grain of salt ? . Can you produce the reliable information that Schrouder purportatly passed onto Durnford ? . Information being classed as reliable ...ie ; being something that Durnford acted upon , that had a detrimental effect on the Zulu nation.
90th

We will never know, as Chelmsford intervened, and prevented Durnford acting.
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