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Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
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 What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:42 pm

Ha ha ha. Just reading impi's post about spelling, I used to get "Must Try Harder" written on the bottom of my school reports, I always did try harder, however, it was always the same thing that confused me, where do I put the I and the E scratch

It was always said I before E except after C, so that is what I did, only to get the teachers wrath and get called out in front of the class to write it out on the blackboard, the teacher would then correct it and the rest of the class would laugh, but the teacher would never explain why it was now spelt E before I, so the confusion that this caused me was totally baffling, and at times I still get confused as to what to put first I or E, so I can understand the confusion of some people spelling Pulleine 'Pulliene', however, I do agree with John Y, that if we do not try to dispel these sort of errors others will just keep repeating them, and if other authors keep perpetuating the errors in print then sadly we still have people believing them.

Good post about receiving cavalry, maybe Pulleine should have remembered that at the time.
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90th

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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:44 pm

As you can see not bloody easy to climb ! , basically sheer rock faces virtually all the way around , and nothing on top to warrant climbing it . As I said no one lived in that area , they lived in the batshe valley ( Sihayo ) or out near Mangeni from memory .
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:58 pm

The 2nd image doesn't look to bad!
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:01 pm

It's not the flat top that's the problem. It's the vertical sides!

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:12 pm

Doesn't seem that vertical in the second photograph.
And Mitford says he didn't have much of a problem getting there on the Northside.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:14 pm

After you.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:22 pm

If you were to see this "Hill" on a map that shows the contour lines, I am sure that you would understand the steepness of the sides of the thing, as in most cases the contour lines would be seen as being joined together. I have climbed up Pen Y Ghent at Horton in Ribblesdale, and I was a lot younger and a lot fitter then, and believe me, it was no walk in the park even back then, it would kill me now trying to get even part way up, but there are other ways up, some easier than others, but I would not even try an easier way now at my age (21 and a bit), Very Happy Shocked Joker
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:27 pm

Hardened troops on top of Isandhlwana. Gary your a wuss!

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Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:34 pm

LOL!!!!

Is that the "tribe" steve. scratch
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:46 pm

No. Nothing to do with me!

Steve
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:26 pm

So that really answers the question, can you get to the top!
So it must be agreed Yes!!! Without too much hardship, looking at that photo.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:35 pm

Impi,

impi wrote:
But a lot could have been opened correctly during the 6 hrs prior to the battle.

John your the only one I know that complains about spelling! If I have been misspelling I will try harder next time.

Why would anyone be troubling to open ammunition boxes at iSandlwana six hours prior to the start of the battle?  Wasn't the perceived threat to Dartnell and Lonsdale's position?

By-the-way I believe you meant to write you're rather your.  Looks like Steve is suffering from the same complaint in his answer to Gary.  No  Joker

Must try harder indeed.  You need to study mo

John Y.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:59 pm

Mine is Hampshire dialect! But of course we know that "the only way is Essex".

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:03 pm

impi wrote:
So that really answers the question, can you get to the top!
So it must be agreed Yes!!! Without too much hardship, looking at that photo.

If you take a look at some of the footage Frank Allewell has posted on YouTube, you get an idea of the sheer scale of the climb.
It looks pretty difficult to me.

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:12 pm

Steve,
Hampshire that accounts for it, too many visits to The Wykeham Arms in Winchester, I would venture!

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:17 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
impi wrote:
So that really answers the question, can you get to the top!
So it must be agreed Yes!!! Without too much hardship, looking at that photo.

If you take a look at some of the footage Frank Allewell has posted on YouTube, you get an idea of the sheer scale of the climb.
It looks pretty difficult to me.

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Back in the day, men were men, unlike today? Isandlwana to Mitford was just a Sunday stroll!
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:37 pm

Are we saying whatever Pulleine had done would have made no difference to the outcome?
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:48 pm

Ulundi wrote:
Are we saying whatever Pulleine had done would have made no difference to the outcome?

A few suggestions have been made, things like a redoubt, Laager even sending a number of men to the top of the hill. I'm sticking with the redoubt and Laager plan, anything that would have helped to buy them more time. Even lighting a massive signal fire on top of the hill could have helped. I'm just throwing that last one out there.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:52 pm

You need to remember the large number of Zulus coming in the back door over the Nek, so any laager would need to be able to cope with them as well as the chest and left horn. A line of wagons enclosing the slope of Isandlwana, perhaps, provided that there was room for them behind the tent lines.


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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:55 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
Ulundi wrote:
Are we saying whatever Pulleine had done would have made no difference to the outcome?

A few suggestions have been made, things like a redoubt, Laager even sending a number of men to the top of the hill. I'm sticking with the redoubt and Laager plan, anything that would have helped to buy them more time. Even lighting a massive signal fire on top of the hill could have helped. I'm just throwing that last one out there.

Signal fire for what purpose?
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:01 pm

Like I said, just throwing that one out there. I was thinking that maybe LC could have seen a column of smoke. Some reports that I have read state that in the right conditions smoke can be seen from as far away as 40 miles. I'm not actually sure how far away LC was when the attack started.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:02 pm

Overwhelming force! twenty thousand against fifteen hundred, the British could not fire
fast enough! forget about the ammunition...its a red herring! the British were swamped
and overwhelmed without even the time to reload their weapons or in some cases even
to fix bayonets, this is happening so fast.. when the right horn completed the encirclement
and poured into the rear of the camp organised resistance began to rapidly disintegrate,
leaving large and small parties of men fighting desperately with whatever came to hand,
it was no more a case of looking to your front, the enemy were all around striking at men
from left and right and behind..no chance of life!. when a soldier lay wounded or dead and
after his ' spirit ' was released that was still not the end of it, every Zulu who came past
would sink his spear in the corpse so that they were riddled like pin cushions.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:12 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Overwhelming force! twenty thousand against fifteen hundred, the British could not fire
fast enough! forget about the ammunition...its a red herring! the British were swamped
and overwhelmed without even the time to reload their weapons or in some cases even
to fix bayonets, this is happening so fast.. when the right horn completed the encirclement
and poured into the rear of the camp organised resistance began to rapidly disintegrate,
leaving large and small parties of men fighting desperately with whatever came to hand,
it was no more a case of looking to your front, the enemy were all around striking at men
from left and right and behind..no chance of life!. when a soldier lay wounded or dead and
after his ' spirit ' was released that was still not the end of it, every Zulu who came past
would sink his spear in the corpse so that they were riddled like pin cushions.  
Cheers for posting that, that's one of the best descriptions I have read so far, it really hits home.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:53 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Overwhelming force! twenty thousand against fifteen hundred, the British could not fire
fast enough! forget about the ammunition...its a red herring! the British were swamped
and overwhelmed without even the time to reload their weapons or in some cases even
to fix bayonets, this is happening so fast.. when the right horn completed the encirclement
and poured into the rear of the camp organised resistance began to rapidly disintegrate,
leaving large and small parties of men fighting desperately with whatever came to hand,
it was no more a case of looking to your front, the enemy were all around striking at men
from left and right and behind..no chance of life!. when a soldier lay wounded or dead and
after his ' spirit ' was released that was still not the end of it, every Zulu who came past
would sink his spear in the corpse so that they were riddled like pin cushions.  

So what you saying, it was the Zulu's fault the camp was lost!!!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:56 pm

Waterloo Salute sas. yes.
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90th

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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:40 pm

Impi no one is saying you cant get to the top !!!! go over the posts , , it's bloody difficult to do so quickly , and in any numbers , and regardless of what that photo ( shop ) Joker shows , it's certainly no walk in the park . Take your next holiday there , and then YOU can show us on here how its done Shocked , don't forget to bring a Martini , some water , 500 rounds of Ammo and some other equipment , it would make for interesting viewing . Salute
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:18 pm

90th your being silly again.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:21 pm

Mitford.

"I climbed to the summit of Isandhlwana, which ascent is neither long or perilous"
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90th

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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:34 pm

John ... I'm being silly ......LOL Shocked . Ulundi I know you have chimed in late , it took fit men in their 30's half an hour to climb Isandlwana , Mitford spends all day travelling a few miles and doesn't think that's a long time either ! . If he was in a car he's take on time would be far different to his take in 1881 ? , Mitford may well have taken 30 mins or an hour , he doesnt say , but as I said , it took him all day to travel a few miles , which he no doubt thought was good going back in 1881 Shocked . Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to put into words ? .
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:12 pm

Of course the hill can be climbed, but not easily. Gary made the key point earlier, the task was to defend the camp not to retreat up the hill just to survive. When it did come to survival only one man went up the hill - if it had been that easy there would have been more. So to say you could have got a number of men up there early on the 22nd with some ammunition is meaningless because it would have been a pointless exercise. You can just imagine Pulleine saying, now you men go up there and take some ammo so you can survive and we will all stay down here and fight the Zulus. Daft idea!

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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:13 pm

Forget all his other travels, he is speaking of when he climbed to the top. Like you say, he doesn't say how long it took, but stating times would only be speculation. The fact is he does say The "ascent is neither long or perilous" he could of said quite opposite and how long and dangerous the ascent was. Can't quite understand why you say it would take to long to get men up there if 50 men were sent up taking the first man 30min to ascent the next man behind him would only be a matter of seconds behind him, and so on for the rest.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:23 pm

rusteze wrote:
Of course the hill can be climbed, but not easily. Gary made the key point earlier, the task was to defend the camp not to retreat up the hill just to survive. When it did come to survival only one man went up the hill - if it had been that easy there would have been more. So to say you could have got a number of men up there early on the 22nd with some ammunition is meaningless because it would have been a pointless exercise. You can just imagine Pulleine saying, now you men go up there and take some ammo so you can survive and we will all stay down here and fight the Zulus. Daft idea!

Steve

But it was okay for those on horseback to leave? Mostly officers.
I don't think the task in hand would come to mind,when you low on ammuntion, and men Laying dead everywhere.
It would appear Pulleine said and done very little. So no I can't imagine him saying that.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:30 pm

I said nothing about it being wrong to leave by horse or up the mountain - people did not choose the mountain when they were desperate to escape, even though you guys think it was easy to climb! Speaks for itself. And how was sending men up the mountain earlier, which is what you are advocating, going to help defend the camp? As I said, daft.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:34 pm

Ray63 wrote:
What we really need is a account from someone who either climb or witnessed a climb. If it could be done you could get quite a lot of men and ammo up there in 6 hours.
Again members are saying it couldn't be climb, but that's just guess work.
I'm sure Frank as managed to get to the top, but could be wrong. But getting back to Steve's reply, 350 could do a lot of damage from the top, it some safety.

I lived in SA for many years, with my interest in the Zulu War being sparked in 1977, when I took six weeks off university studies to be an "extra" in the making of the film "Zulu Dawn". That six weeks was immense fun, and I and the small group of fellow students who'd taken time-out to be in the film, became acquainted with Bob Hoskins, Denholm Elliot and Simon Ward - with whom we had several drinking sessions in the Babanango Hotel Bar - the only "watering hole" within 50 miles of the movie set. I'll post some pics of all of this at some point, but to answer Ray's query...

I visited the battlefield for the first time in late 1977 - about six months after movie shooting had finished. The film was not shot on the actual battlefield, but on a farm called "Hindenberg", about 25 miles to the south-east, against the backdrop of a hill that looked vaguely like Isandlwhana. On the movie set, I was regularly charged with the task of "climbing the hill" as part of a few scene takes, along with other extras, and we were kitted out as were the soldiers of the 24th, with rifle, shoulder bag and what was quite a "stifling" uniform. It took quite a bit of effort to reach the top of the hill on the movie set, and that hill's slope was a lot gentler than the real Isandlwhana.

When I visited Isandlwhana for the first time (late 1977) I decided to climb the hill in the same way I had done on the movie set, and it was considerably more challenging. The steepness for a start required a lot more attention being paid to the terrain, than to any attacking warriors. In parts, I would have had to put my gun (had I had one) up on an available ledge, while I used both hands and feet to scramble up after it.

The route I took would have been a more probable route taken by any of the defenders who were in retreat, so I did not tackle the slightly gentler northern ridge... besides, by the time the retreat had begun, that area was awash with Zulus anyway. It was not possible for any redcoat to use it as a means of ascent. The only path(s) up the hill that were available to the retreating redcoats would have been along the eastern ridge, and possibly closer to the southern summit area, where the slopes are extremely steep and rugged.

About half-way up the hill is a sort of "plateau" which is probably not an accurate description, because the slope here is between 30 and 40 degrees anyway - but it's a bit "flatter" than what lies both below and above it. But it's narrow in most parts, and no place to conduct a meaningful defence - which is difficult even on flat ground.

I concluded that even if it could have been co-ordinated as a manoeuvre at the time, it would have been to no avail. Getting to any meaningful height rapidly enough, and then having appropriate cover for a large number of men, would not have been possible. Lugging up large quantities of ammo boxes would also have slowed down the proceedings and would have required large numbers of men to put down their guns (or at least sling them out of use) while they concentrated on lifting and shoving the ammo boxes.

I visited the battle field several times after that - each visit looking at a different perspective - from the position of the ill-fated rocket battery, to Durnford's donga, to traversing the entire route of Fugitive's trail Down to the Buffalo river.

My last visit was in 1999 - 20 years after my first and I decided to try the climb once again, to see what some of the "older" soldiers may have felt if pressured to ascend. It was really quite a challenge - and in those days I was very fit, running regular standard marathons and participating annually in South Africa's Comrades marathon - a 56-mile slog over terrain not unlike that in which this famous battle took place.

For large numbers of redcoats to climb, then assemble, on that hill would have been very challenging, and probably not had much influence on the ultimate outcome of the battle.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:41 pm

Welcome Fairestcape and thank you for that excellent and interesting introduction. I very much look forward to your participation.

Regards
Steve
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:51 pm

Agreed, like manna from heaven, i have put the making
of Zulu Dawn on you tube.. welcome Fairestcape xhosa
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:05 pm

Dave wrote:
Lord Chelmsford left Isandlwana between 04:00-04:30hrs. Disregarding the waiting of Col Durnford to arrive at Isandlwana.

What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.

First report is made by Trooper Barker of the Natal Carbineers recorded at 05:22hrs

Brickhill states 12:00hrs they heard heavy firing so I’m taking that time as when the Battle started.

I recall someone saying there was 100 + wagons on the field, would it really have been impossible to have formed a Laggar? He was quick enough to remind Durnford that his orders were to defend the camp.?

Fairestcape Thanks for an interesting insight into your time on the film set and Battle field tour. Looking forward to the photographs.

If you read my first post, that kick started this topic, we are talking between the hours mentioned above from when the first report came in until the battle commenced some 6 hrs. So there wouldn't have been a lot going on, which would have given time to get some men on the top, again not to concerned about get ammuntion boxes up there as the men could carry as many rounds as possible on their person.
What I think people are forgetting is that the Zulu's would have the same problems going up as the British Soldiers before them, difference being the British wasn't getting shot at.
The British going up in single file could operate as a human chain each helping the man behind him. And I'm sure those on top could have caused quite a bit of damage.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:06 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Hi Gary me old wombat. Salute

I was only being hypothetical about a couple of hundred getting up there mate, just to show that even if they had been able to get up there with their ammo, they would have been overwhelmed in a very short time by the very angry zulu's, and don't forget that the reserve had not been used, so they would have been very eager to get at the Red Coats, as they felt left out not being used in the main attack.

The "summit" of Isandlwhana is precipitously narrow - more of a very scree-ridden ridge a few yards wide, with very steep drops at the southern end. Also, there's not an awful lot to this "summit" - no vast wide-open plain... It's more of a knife-edge in most places. Its "defence" attributes (like large boulders and vertical faces) suit individual defenders, who can back against these features and only have to concentrate any fire to their front, across an arc of just a few degrees. But each defendable feature would be sufficient for two, possibly three individuals - not more! This would have (as is the case of the poor soul who "held out") simply prolonged the agony. These pockets of redcoats would have either run out of ammo sooner or later, or would have been "picked off" by Zulus - many of whom had taken up the guns of the fallen and were now using them as their own weapons - even considering that their "firing skills" were very poor. There could be no co-ordination in any defence "strategy" on the hill top, with isolated pockets simply reacting to any immediate threat, rather than exercising a plan to keep everyone alive long enough to tire the Zulus and encourage a retreat.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:19 pm

Perhaps we should accept when Mitford climb to the top, it was more accessible in 1881, put it down to environmental issues erosion etc!
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:25 pm

Dave wrote:
Dave wrote:
Lord Chelmsford left Isandlwana between 04:00-04:30hrs. Disregarding the waiting of Col Durnford to arrive at Isandlwana.

What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.

First report is made by Trooper Barker of the Natal Carbineers recorded at 05:22hrs

Brickhill states 12:00hrs they heard heavy firing so I’m taking that time as when the Battle started.

I recall someone saying there was 100 + wagons on the field, would it really have been impossible to have formed a Laggar? He was quick enough to remind Durnford that his orders were to defend the camp.?

Fairestcape Thanks for an interesting insight into your time on the film set and Battle field tour. Looking forward to the photographs.

If you read my first post, that kick started this topic, we are talking between the hours mentioned above from when the first report came in until the battle commenced some 6 hrs. So there wouldn't have been a lot going on, which would have given time to get some men on the top, again not to concerned about get ammuntion boxes up there as the men could carry as many rounds as possible on their person.
What I think people are forgetting is that the Zulu's would have the same problems going up as the British Soldiers before them, difference being the British wasn't getting shot at.
The British going up in single file could operate as a human chain each helping the man behind him. And I'm sure those on top could have caused quite a bit of damage.

Bear in mind that the British - largely through arrogance and complacency, were prepared neither to defend nor attack. In the hours leading up to the eventual climax of the battle, there were a number of lengthy hiatus, where neither side moved much. The Zulus did not swarm over the Nqutu Ridge and continue non-stop until they had slaughtered every redcoat. When Durnford arrived, he and Pulleine (along with other officers) were far more interested in having a good breakfast than getting concerned about the Zulus - and this was quite some time after the initial reports of the Zulu army's position had come in.
The camp at Isandlwhana was little more than an "overnight stop", and not in their wildest dreams did Chelmsford and his officers think that the Zulus would be "dumb" enough to attack it. So confident were all of these commanders, that Chelmsford saw no weaknesses in his decision to both split the force, and to not bother to entrench the camp in any way whatsoever. To laager the considerable number of wagons would have taken the better part of 2 or 3 days and Chelmsford was already champing at the bit hours after the camp was set. He was off with half his army on a wild goose-chase to look for the Zulus. Pulleine - little more than a competent administrator with no battle experience - did not have either the acumen, nor the perceptive skills - to properly evaluate the pending threat, or to formulate a plan to deal with it. He was far more interested in finishing his breakfast - possiby in the mistaken belief that the Zulus would reciprocate with the expected Victorian politeness - "Let him finish his meal first, only then do we attack... to attack while he's eating is not cricket!"
In short, the Brits were simply not prepared for the event, and they completely underestimated the bravery, determination, tenacity, exceptional discipline and voracity of their enemy.
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:39 pm

In short, the Brits were simply not prepared for the event, and they completely underestimated the bravery, determination, tenacity, exceptional discipline and voracity of their enemy.

You will get no argument from me on that!..that my friend is the plain unvarnished truth put in a
nutshell. i have believed that for forty odd years, its very refreshing to hear some other express
that view..that yes, it was a stunning Zulu victory. brought about by a variety of reasons that by
now all are familiar, but some just wont accept the truth. they are i'm afraid in denial.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:41 pm

There was a lot of activity on the Zulu side, there are numerous reports coming in from 04:30 of large numbers of Zulus on the move. Yet Pulleine failed to do any thing in way of defence, I just can't believe that everyone in the camp, didn't know they were open to attack. Picnic at Isandlwana Rock !!
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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:20 am

Dave
I'm afraid you have trouble believing what anyone else has to say , especially if it doesn't tie in with your thoughts , Fairestcape told you he's climbed Isandlwana in his kit from Zulu Dawn and it was difficult , he also said he would've needed to put his weapon down at times and use two hands to pull himself up etc , this is not the same trouble the Zulu warrior would've had at all , he isn't going to go up there with a MH and ammo pouches , along with his own individual weight nearly doubling with the amount of ammunition that some people on here believe each individual would be able to carry on their person ! . A couple of spears , probably wouldn't even take their Shields , and lets not forget the Zulu Warrior was far more fitter , faster and agile compared to the regular British soldier . I think you simply misunderstand what was needed to carried by the Soldier in the field , and the weight it contributes to one's person . Shocked Shocked
90th
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:41 pm

I don't think he climb Isandlwana in full kit, he done that on the hill near the film set.
Read carefully 90th is not about making things fit to your way of thinking.
He climb Isandlwana some 6 months after the filming, can't see them letting him keep his kit and MH rifle. No
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:50 am

So what would the argument be against Pulleine drawing all the men in front of the slope of Isandlwana hill. The hill would protect their rear, ample supply of ammuntion, the Zulu could only attack from from and sides. This was also mentioned by LC, I personally agree, the hill could have been utilised.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:13 am

Just a thought can we really be sure that Pulleine was getting all the reports from the start. Can't be sure but did he not send his first message to LC around 08:30. Where does it say Pulleine received the reports. Did Pulleine make Durnford aware of ALL? the reports on his arrival.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:26 am

Ray, Vereker rode in to the camp with the news at 6am So Pulleine would have know 30min after the first report.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:07 am

24th wrote:
So what would the argument be against Pulleine drawing all the men in front of the slope of Isandlwana hill. The hill would protect their rear, ample supply of ammuntion, the Zulu could only attack from from and sides. This was also mentioned by LC, I personally agree, the hill could have been utilised.

I don't think that was how the military mind worked. They seemed to favour a more aggressive form of defence, whereby the firing line was advanced to meet the enemy head on. I believe they thought 20 or 30 rounds per soldier would be enough to disperse any attack, which is why initially, there was little thought given to replenishing ammunition supplies to the firing line.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:15 am

A Natal Carbineer (Whitelaw) also reported that there were thousands of Zulus moving on the high ground to the north east, Pulleine then sends a message to Clery at 8.00 am making him aware of the situation. The problem is that the Zulus appear to be holding of any attack at this point, Pulleine correctly keeps the men formed up, at least until 9.30am. The thing that surprises me is if they believed that the Zulus wouldn't attack until nightfall why didn't they start work on building some form of defensive barrier in preparation for the much later expected attack, or as 24th suggested, use the hill to protect the rear and possibly the flanks. I appreciate as eaton suggests that a more aggressive defence was the method back then but there are a number of examples where this wasn't always the case.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:20 pm

So in effect the question is..What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him...

Lots of superposition and flights of fancy going on here!. Pulliene does next to nothing..if one
accepts that Gardner along with Stuart Smith arrives at 1.00pm, Gardner with a message to
strike the camp, which by this time was under major attack, Pulliene dithers, further undecided
what to do..he wants to obey the General till it is pointed out to him that other matters were
more pressing, so what exactly was Pulliene doing all morning apart from his conference with
Durnford? i'm afraid the answer comes down to the same thing..complacency, to their mounting
disbelief and astonishment the zulu were not breaking under the imperial volleys, but were
coming on in fine disciplined order, using the ground and terrain with consummate ease, just half
an hour after Gardner brings his message the battle is raging out of control, those with any brains
what so ever are reading the signs and are taking steps to ensure any possible survival..the Zulu
were in the process of ' eating up ' and proceeded to ' stamp the camp flat '. To ask what could
Pulliene could have done is fine, the more salient question is to ask, What! did Pulliene do!.
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