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Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
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 What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.

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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:40 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
This obviously a fictional work, tries  to convey something of
the horror of the close quarter fighting..

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Sitting here in 2016, the events from 137 yrs ago are in danger of seeming remote!
but even lurid prose as above constantly reminds me we are dealing with real people
and events.

Thanks for posting, it certainly makes you think, its also a subject that very rarely gets discussed. We know it happened but none of us really like to think about it for too long. Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:45 pm

In Captain Gardner's statement he said that he left LC around 10.30 am, and rode back to the camp with the order to Lt Col Pulleine.

So he is saying that the order was addressed to Pulleine.

If LC had wanted Durnford to take command, or even assumed that Durnford would take command, surely he would have addressed the order to Col Durnford and not to Lt Col Pulleine.

I think that Frank makes a very good point when he says that Clery was ADC to the column commander, and that the order would only have applied to that column.

Durnford was in command of his own independent column, and would only have received orders from LC himself.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:04 pm

But he would inherit Pulleine's orders when he assumed command of the camp. He isn't taking over command of the centre column, half of it is out with Chelmsford.

Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:18 pm

Thanks Martin,
I see that in Hill of the Sphinx, it was Pulleine that read the order 'aloud'. The order came via Clery on behalf of Colonel Glyn and LC but without consultation with either of them. Would Durnford have been the senior combat officer on his return to camp.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:26 pm

Steve, I can understand what you are saying, however, I tend to go along with what Frank says about the order not being bound on Durnford as he was an independent column commander.

Frank's post does explain things very well, IMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:35 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
Thanks Martin,
I see that in Hill of the Sphinx, it was Pulleine that read the order 'aloud'. The order came via Clery on behalf of Colonel Glyn and LC but without consultation with either of them. Would Durnford have been the senior combat officer on his return to camp.

waterloo, you are talking about the wrong order, we are talking about the order sent by LC to Pulleine via Gardner.

The order you are talking of is the order that Clery took upon himself to write out and give to Pulleine.

When Col Durnford arrived at the camp, he told Pulleine that he would not be staying at the camp and that he would not interfere with Pulleines command, however, with Durnford being the senior officer, he would have been seen as being in command whilst he was there, but it was Pulleine who was in command of the camp not Durnford, Durnford had his own independent column to command.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:37 pm

I agree, Your welcome waterloo. Salute
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:39 pm

My Bad,

Just to be clear 'you are discussing the legalities of the order from Clery to Pulleine'.

It is therefore curious that Clery told Pulleine that the latter (although junior to Durnford) was to be in command of the camp in Glyn's absence. Under Queens Regulations, where different units were 'employed together on duty' holding the camp being such a duty-command was to be exercised by 'the senior combatant officer present'.
FWD Jackson
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:10 pm

Hi Waterloo, Clery only did it as an afterthought, he realised that neither LC or Glyn had left any orders for Pulleine. So he wrote out the order and gave it to Pulleine, and Pulleine must have asumed that it was from LC.

When Durnford arrived at the camp, he became the senior officer there, however, he did tell Pulleine that he would not interfere and that he was not staying, this shows that Durnford was under the impression that LC wanted him elsewhere. LC had also not left any orders for Durnford for when he arrived at the camp, so logic would say that Durnford was correct in assuming that LC still wanted him to assist LC in his attack on the Matyana's along with Bengough.

The order from LC to Pulleine that was carried by Gardner, was for Pulleine to pack up the camp.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:18 pm

The Order to Durnford was clear! Move up to Isandlwana. That is all that was required of him. Which makes sense in that half the Colum had left with LC.

Martin saying Pulleine must have assumed it was from LC is speculation.
I'm sure any orders from LC would have been signed.

I don't agree Durnford was at liberty to do what he wanted. He was prior to the last order he received.

Martin also states than Durnford told Pulleine he wouldn't interfere with his command. We know he did!
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:38 pm

Ray, read Franks earlier post, it explains a lot.

Did Clery explain to Pulleine that it was he (Clery) who was giving the order? I think not.

Clery was junior to Pulleine, and a junior officer cannot order a senior officer, so when he gave the order to Pulleine, if Clery had said it was from him, then Pulleine could have challenged it, so Clery must have let Pulleine assume that it was from LC.

Durnford was in command of his own independent column.

Durnford would have been looked upon as being in command with being the senior officer, and any suggestion he made would have taken as being an order, so if he had wanted the two coy's of the 24th, he didn't need to ask Pulleine, he could have ordered it, but he didn't, he realised that Pulleine was in command of the camp.


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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:50 pm

If we believe Crealock then Durnford was to take command of the camp and as Ray 63 has pointed out half the column had already left with LC, Crealocks note book indicates that Durnford was to take no2 column with him back to the camp, it stands to reason that when Durnford arrives at the camp with his column and with him being the senior officer he would/should have taken command. Pulleine did his best to explain the situation and hand command over to Durnford but as we know Durnford wants to head off and prevent an attack on LC. He tells Pulleine that he wont interfere with the running of the camp but at the same time informs him that he will return. I don't agree that Durnford believed that LC wanted him elsewhere, Durnford made that choice of his own volition, he made an assumption that LC would be attacked and off he goes. Its a fair point to talk about Pulleine's inexperience but if we are aware of it today then surely Durnford would also have known, the sad truth is that Durnford knowingly left an inexperienced officer take command of the camp. Why didn't Durnford issue orders to Pulleine for the defence of the camp, why didn't he question him on what his intentions were should the camp fall to an attack. You can't argue that Durnford may have done those things because if he had then Pulleine would have followed it through, as we know Pulleine did very little in way of preparation for the defence of the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:14 pm

You are making a simple proposition complicated. Lets not go down the path of what Chelmsford's order to Durnford meant - there are four lengthy threads on here that have done that discussion to death. If we accept that at some point Durnford became the commander of the camp for a period of time (I think we all accept that) then Durnford became responsible, for that period of time,for taking those measures that Pulleine was ordered to implement.
Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:17 pm

Steve,
Fair Comment.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:24 pm

In all honesty I hadn't realised that we had gone of thread, I'm not quite sure how that happened but it seems that no matter what we discuss it always comes back to the Durnford question, I 'm sure that if we had a thread on what colour socks Clery was wearing on the 22nd we would find a way to steer it back to Durnford. As you quite rightly said, 'Lets not go down that path'.

Respect.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:42 pm

Waterloo, you must have missed it, but I thought everyone on the forum knew that Crealock had lied about saying that Durnford was to take command, Crealock only did that to get himself and LC off the hook, it has been proved that the order did not say that Durnford was to take command.

The original planning was for Durnford and Bengough to form a pincer to flush out the Matyana's and drive them towards LC, and then between them they would defeat the Matyana's, and Durnford's earlier orders had said as much. Things would remain the sam until the time came for Durnford to detach Bengough and for Durnford to move up behind LC to assist with this.

However, with Dartnel discovering what LC thought was the main zulu army, things had changed, but Durnford was not informed about it, so when Crealock interfered with what was going to be LC's order to Durnford and made a pig's ear, it just conveyed to Durnford that he was to move up to the camp, and that Bengough should be moving on his way, and that the general would be about 10 miles away, there was nothing in the order to tell Durnford that the plans had been altered, so he would assume that he was to follow the original plans.

On his arrival at the camp and after speaking with Pulleine, he would then realise that things had altered, and after getting the report of zulu's heading LC's direction, he would realise that he had to do something about that, and that is why he left the camp, but don't forget that he did not have any orders to stay at the camp in the first place.

Durnford didn't leave an inexperienced officer in charge of the camp, LC did. It was not up to Durnford to nursemaid Pulleine, and neither was it up to Durnford to take over the command of the camp, he had his own independent command to consider, and he also felt he had a duty to try to defend his general's flank or rear, that is why he left the camp, he had to try to find out what the zulu's were up to.

Many people fell for the lies and deciet that LC and Crealock set up to throw the blame onto Durnford, however, there were many others who could see through the spin and knew where the blame lay.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:47 pm

the sad truth is that Durnford knowingly left an inexperienced officer take command of the camp. Why didn't Durnford issue orders to Pulleine for the defence of the camp, why didn't he question him on what his intentions were should the camp fall to an attack.

Waterloo. whatever you believe! please understand...not one jack of them expected the camp
to come under serious attack! consider what had gone before, the early sightings, Chard's
chat with Durnford..they were all blissfully ignorant.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:48 pm

Good post Martin.. agree
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:57 pm

Cheers Les mate. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:24 am

Morning Steve
your post:
It is a confusing picture and I think Frank's go at rationalising Durnford's position probably makes too many assumptions (rather like my theory about the firing line - I know!). Me! make assumptions ! Shocked Very Happy Very Happy

First of all I think most people believe that the issue of Durnford becoming the senior officer when he arrived never occurred to Chelmsford. Second, Frank never said that Clery had been exonerated for issuing an illegal order, he said that on balance he would have been (it never came up). Third, notwithstanding that Clery had issued the order to Pulleine, it is unarguable that Durnford became senior officer while in the camp and was duty bound to observe any orders that had been issued to Pulleine. Quite right, but only if he had elected to assume command which we know from Cochrane that he didnt.Fourth Durnford was not under any orders to remain in the camp and he said he was not going to. So as soon as he left he resumed his role as commander of his own column and relinquished that of commander of the camp. But, he gets caught up in the Zulu attack and becomes an intrinsic part of the efforts to defend the camp. At that point, there is a strong argument that in theory he is back in command of the whole shebang again. But it is a moot point because they were all too busy fighting for their lives to worry about Queen's Regulations. As we have discussed before, Im pretty certain that he did take command, albeit to late for effective action.

I think the issue up front here was the authority behind Clery issuing the order. Clery had a good reputation as an administrator, Wood didn't want to let him go, and as a prof of tactics had a firm grip on reality. His concern that Pulleine was being left in a vacuum was pretty justified and in that context the order was issued. I would not believe that he would act in such a way that could leave him hung out to dry in forging, and it really would have been, an order from Chelmsford. He was reasonable able however to claim his right to do so as ADC to the Column Commander and CO of the regiment. There are a couple of possible circumstances, the orders were delivered to Pulleine, not by Clery but messenger, As is common that messenger would have announced himself as bearer of orders from Clery. Clery himself then visits Pulleine to push home the message. I cant believe that there wasa any reason at all for him to usurp authority by claiming the orders came from Chelmsford or Glynn. Why would he, he was empowered by virtue of his position to do so in his own right.
Those were then column orders and had no power over the CO of another column, unless that column was amalgamated and the senior officer took command. Durnford went out of his way to refuse command, as was his right to do so. He was in command of an independent column that had one single order to obey, 'Move to iSandlwana', not take command, not amalgamate the columns, just simply move your force forward. This he did and then under the structure that governed him, Wood and Pearson, elected to pursue a course of action.
The fact that he would be returning to camp was born out by his waggon train was left there and I have no doubt that if no trace of the enemy was located then Raw and Roberts would have returned to the camp to wait for him.
Assuming then Durnford et al had not met the Zulu army and returned to camp he would have had an interesting time chatting to Pulleine about command protocols. But his return was a tad more active than that.
Just a couple of alternate thoughts
Cheers
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:19 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Waterloo, you must have missed it, but I thought everyone on the forum knew that Crealock had lied about saying that Durnford was to take command, Crealock only did that to get himself and LC off the hook, it has been proved that the order did not say that Durnford was to take command.

The original planning was for Durnford and Bengough to form a pincer to flush out the Matyana's and drive them towards LC, and then between them they would defeat the Matyana's, and Durnford's earlier orders had said as much. Things would remain the sam until the time came for Durnford to detach Bengough and for Durnford to move up behind LC to assist with this.

However, with Dartnel discovering what LC thought was the main zulu army, things had changed, but Durnford was not informed about it, so when Crealock interfered with what was going to be LC's order to Durnford and made a pig's ear, it just conveyed to Durnford that he was to move up to the camp, and that Bengough should be moving on his way, and that the general would be about 10 miles away, there was nothing in the order to tell Durnford that the plans had been altered, so he would assume that he was to follow the original plans.

On his arrival at the camp and after speaking with Pulleine, he would then realise that things had altered, and after getting the report of zulu's heading LC's direction, he would realise that he had to do something about that, and that is why he left the camp, but don't forget that he did not have any orders to stay at the camp in the first place.

Durnford didn't leave an inexperienced officer in charge of the camp, LC did. It was not up to Durnford to nursemaid Pulleine, and neither was it up to Durnford to take over the command of the camp, he had his own independent command to consider, and he also felt he had a duty to try to defend his general's flank or rear, that is why he left the camp, he had to try to find out what the zulu's were up to.

Many people fell for the lies and deciet that LC and Crealock set up to throw the blame onto Durnford, however, there were many others who could see through the spin and knew where the blame lay.

Cheers Martin,

Yes, I was aware of the situation with Crealock and the notebook. I followed the debate on that some time ago.
I wasn't thinking that Durnford should nursemaid Pulleine but rather consult with him. Salute
Respect
Waterloo


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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:25 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
the sad truth is that Durnford knowingly left an inexperienced officer take command of the camp. Why didn't Durnford issue orders to Pulleine for the defence of the camp, why didn't he question him on what his intentions were should the camp fall to an attack.

Waterloo. whatever you believe! please understand...not one jack of them expected the camp
to come under serious attack! consider what had gone before, the early sightings, Chard's
chat with Durnford..they were all blissfully ignorant.

Xhosa,
Hello,

I appreciate that 'not one jack of them expected the camp to come under serious attack!', I just think that they should have prepared for that eventuality considering the situation that they found themselves in along with the reports that they were receiving. Which brings us nicely back onto the thread. Salute

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Waterloo
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:57 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Ray, read Franks earlier post, it explains a lot.

Did Clery explain to Pulleine that it was he (Clery) who was giving the order? I think not.

Clery was junior to Pulleine, and a junior officer cannot order a senior officer, so when he gave the order to Pulleine, if Clery had said it was from him, then Pulleine could have challenged it, so Clery must have let Pulleine assume that it was from LC.  

Durnford was in command of his own independent column.

Durnford would have been looked upon as being in command with being the senior officer, and any suggestion he made would have taken as being an order, so if he had wanted the two coy's of the 24th, he didn't need to ask Pulleine, he could have ordered it, but he didn't, he realised that Pulleine was in command of the camp.



Durnford was in command of his own independent column.

Then why would he have been ordered to the camp, if is wasn't for the purpose of streathing.
If LC had wanted him to cooperate with him he would have said so in the order. As I said the Order was clear and uncomplicated.

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:24 am

Hi Ray
Im afraid we will never know, unless some diary turns up, why Chelmsford wanted Durnford at the camp. Strengthen, I don't think so, he was happy enough to leave that amount of men on their own. The possibility once mentioned of him wanting the extra NNC to help in transport is a possibility as is wanting the mounted component for guarding the column on the move. All sorts of possibilities really. For the time being, until that diary turns up, we can only work with what we have.

Cheers
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:36 am

I am sure that Clery did not seek to give anyone a false impression about where the orders he delivered originated from. And there was nothing in what he instructed Pulleine to do that anyone could take exception to. We know that he quietly went around the various commanders who were going out with Chelmsford and told them to get things organised and at the same time he set out for Pulleine what was required of him. This was all of a piece and I don't see why he should contrive some different way of informing Pulleine. The liberty he took was a small one and he thought the benefits of putting Pulleine in the picture far outweighed the danger of being accused of overstepping his authority. Nobody was going to complain were they? I still see the key missing factor as Glyn, who seems to have remained totally detached from any attempt to properly inform his own regimental officers of what was going on. Given Glyn's incredibly low profile you wonder whether the officers of the 24th had grown well used to instructions coming direct from Clery without too much being said about there origin.

Frank, you could compete with J K Rowling.

Steve


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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:54 am

Steve re your last line , as Wood said of Kambula ' it was a close run thing ' Joker Joker Joker
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:27 pm

Hi Steve/Gary
Gary so very true, probably Khambula came down to that one charge to sting a premature attack.
Steve
Bottom line with Durnford arriving was he was determined to follow up the Zulu, Im sure his mind was set when he spoke to Chard, if not before. So orders for the camp really meant nothing to him, after all they would never dream of attacking a British camp, "Harrumph bloody foreigners", so he was totally focused on seeing 'action' and probably wanting to prove his worth to Chelmsford. I really think that was important to him.
Your comment on the low profile is very apt, I would agree 100% its a possibility.
Waterloo
As I posted earlier, Pulleine should have taken command of his environment, even though his orders from Clery specifically forbade that. ( Bring in your outposts etc)

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Heres a thought to mull over for the weekend. There was a pre attack to the front line, Pulleine was quoted as saying something to the effect of ' What a fool a fellow is we should have let them come on and given them a sound thrashing". After that there was a withdrawl followed by the main attack. So did that mean there was an impi between the camp and Raws men? If so where did they come from?
Just another oddity to ponder.
( Suck on that Rowling ) Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Frank

They wouldn't have come from Mangeni, would they? He says in all innocence. I think we have probably moved on to the Chamber of Secrets volume.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:01 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Heres a thought to mull over for the weekend. There was a pre attack to the front line, Pulleine was quoted as saying something to the effect of ' What a fool a fellow is we should have let them come on and given them a sound thrashing". After that there was a withdrawl followed by the main attack. So did that mean there was an impi between the camp and Raws men? If so where did they come from?
Just another oddity to ponder.
( Suck on that Rowling ) Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy You need to study mo

Against which part of the front line? Could it have been an initial advance of the left horn which when opposed, withdrew and made a wider move further to the left?
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:19 pm

Ray, If you read LC's earlier conversations, notes, and orders, with Durnford, you would realise that LC had a plan that involved Durnford and Bengough acting as a pincer to flush out the Matyana's and drive them towards LC, then between them they could defeat them or force them to surrender. No one had thought of informing Durnford that there had been any changes to this plan. So when he received the order to move up to the camp and also telling him that LC would be about 10 miles away and that Bengouigh should also move, he would assume that the pre-arranged plan to attack the Matyana's was under way. The order did not inform him that there had been any changes to the plans against the Matyana's, it did not inform him that LC had gone to assist Dartnel, it did not inform him to take over the command of the camp, it did not inform him to remain at the camp, and it did not inform him to reinforce Pulleine, plus with the order mentioning that Bengough should make his move, and that LC would be about 10 miles away, this would further add to Durnford's impression that the pre-planned move against the Matyana's was now taking shape, he would not realise that things had altered until he arrived at the camp and spoke with Pulleine. When he did arrive at the camp he told Pulleine that he would not be staying, this shows that he was under the impression that he was still working to the pre-arranged plan to assist LC with the attack on the Matyana's along with Bengough, however, this would all change after speaking with Pulleine. He would now have to try to find out what the zulu's were up to around the camp area, so he sent out scouts and lookouts, and he sent patrols to try to get some better information about what the zulu's were doing on the hills, that is when he got the report of zulu's heading in LC's direction. He could not ignore this just in case they were trying to cut off LC, so he didn't have much other choice other than to go and see what they were doing, he could not afford to let his general be caught in a trap, don't forget what he said, "if they are heading towards the general we must stop them at all hazards". Durnford did the right thing, and don't forget that no one at the camp knew or even thought that there would be a main zulu army just waiting for the moment to attack, however, Pulleine should have done a lot more than he did from the first report of zulu's in the area, he had many hours to make some sort of defence before the arrival of Durnford. It's a pity that the Boy Scout movement wasn't around before iSandlwana, otherwise if Pulleine had been in the Boy Scouts he might have 'been prepared', and he could have prepared some defences, after all, as the old saying goes, it would have been better to be safe than sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:38 pm

Steve/eaton
Chamber of secrets indeed, iSandlwana is a veritable treasure trove of secrets. Its just one of those oddities Ive puzzled over for a while. Its odd because the episode fits into the frame before the main battle started so Raw etc would still be doing their fighting withdrawl along the plateau which means then somehow this bunch has got behind them and decided to attack independently of the main impi. The statement attributed to Pulleine comes in a letter written by GS Banister to his father. Banister wasn't at iSandlwana so it must be a second hand account passed along from a survivor and there were only three from the line. Essex is ruled out because the early part of the battle he was up on the spur. Curling was tending his guns and that leaves Gardner.
The possibility exists of course that could tie at least two events onto a framework. Raw and Roberts have withdrawn towards Mkwene hill and a spin of of possibly the left chest spilled over the edge of the ridge and in doing so attacked the rocket battery before retreating back over the ridge !
Or even more simply Banister was passing on a rumour rather than event, support for that would be in Banisters letter he mentions the guns opening fire, Curling makes no mention of the incident.

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:57 pm

waterloo. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:09 pm

This has developed into a great thread.. with tongue
in cheek may i present the final commander of
Isandhlwana.....

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:11 pm

Snook sets out the sequence in similar terms, mentioning Pulleine's reported remarks. Snook describes the Zulus that were met by the Rocket Battery in the Notch as skirmishers but does not say from which element of the Zulu formation they came. I suppose the inference is they were from the left side of the chest, as you say. The question is what does Pulleine refer to when he says "we should have let them come on". Surely not the skirmishers in the Notch. The only other section of the Zulu force that had come under fire was the right chest from E and F companies up on the spur, before they fell back. Snook says that the companies were not under pressure when they dropped back to form the left of the straight firing line. And there was no immediate large scale pursuit by the Zulus. Presumably it was that passage of action he was referring to?

Steve


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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:31 pm

Steve
I need to read Snook again. And Essex. Dredging deep for a memory I seem to recall the two companies being followed over the ridge then being blown away by fire from Younghusband and the mounted men from the dongas.
Xhosa
Sorry gotta disagree the final commander was a man called nTshingwayo ka Mahole Salute
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Page 191 of Snook for Pulleine's remark.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:42 pm

Steve
Just revisiting Snook on the 'skirmishers' Julian and David Jackson agree with that. Bugger this where I get into trouble again. Mehlokazulu came over the plateau so it highly possible they were from his wing. BUT, if that was the left wing, and Mehlokazulu must be believed, then what was the force coming down the valley chasing Durnford? There was no need or historical basis for splitting the left horn so who was chasing Durnford.
Back to my theory, often aired, sorry David and Julian, it was the reserve.

Time to get the head below the parapet after disagreeing with the great man.

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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:49 pm

Hmm. Brave man. Snook no doubt got skirmishers from Jackson. The nature of skirmishers is that they are operating in advance of the main body, so I suppose they could be around the top of the Notch and the main force could still come down the Quabe after Durnford? But you know the ground.

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:27 pm

As King, the great Elephant directed his Impi at the
biggest threat, The Central Column, as King all
victory's and defeats were his alone!.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:18 pm

Most likely the zulu skirmishers came from the chest, whilst the left and right horns moved on their way to encircle the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:37 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Ray, If you read LC's earlier conversations, notes, and orders, with Durnford, you would realise that LC had a plan that involved Durnford and Bengough acting as a pincer to flush out the Matyana's and drive them towards LC, then between them they could defeat them or force them to surrender. No one had thought of informing Durnford that there had been any changes to this plan. So when he received the order to move up to the camp and also telling him that LC would be about 10 miles away and that Bengouigh should also move, he would assume that the pre-arranged plan to attack the Matyana's was under way. The order did not inform him that there had been any changes to the plans against the Matyana's, it did not inform him that LC had gone to assist Dartnel, it did not inform him to take over the command of the camp, it did not inform him to remain at the camp, and it did not inform him to reinforce Pulleine, plus with the order mentioning that Bengough should make his move, and that LC would be about 10 miles away, this would further add to Durnford's impression that the pre-planned move against the Matyana's was now taking shape, he would not realise that things had altered until he arrived at the camp and spoke with Pulleine. When he did arrive at the camp he told Pulleine that he would not be staying, this shows that he was under the impression that he was still working to the pre-arranged plan to assist LC with the attack on the Matyana's along with Bengough, however, this would all change after speaking with Pulleine. He would now have to try to find out what the zulu's were up to around the camp area, so he sent out scouts and lookouts, and he sent patrols to try to get some better information about what the zulu's were doing on the hills, that is when he got the report of zulu's heading in LC's direction. He could not ignore this just in case they were trying to cut off LC, so he didn't have much other choice other than to go and see what they were doing, he could not afford to let his general be caught in a trap, don't forget what he said, "if they are heading towards the general we must stop them at all hazards". Durnford did the right thing, and don't forget that no one at the camp knew or even thought that there would be a main zulu army just waiting for the moment to attack, however, Pulleine should have done a lot more than he did from the first report of zulu's in the area, he had many hours to make some sort of defence before the arrival of Durnford. It's a pity that the Boy Scout movement wasn't around before iSandlwana, otherwise if Pulleine had been in the Boy Scouts he might have 'been prepared', and he could have prepared some defences, after all, as the old saying goes, it would have been better to be safe than sorry.


The Court having assembled pursuant to order, proceeded to take the following evidence:—

"1st Witness.— Major Clery states: I am Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn, C.B., operating against the Zulus. The General commanding accompanied this Column from the time it crossed the border into Zululand.
On the 20th January, 1879, at the Camp, Isandlwana, Zululand, the Lieutenant-General commanding gave orders to Commandant Lonsdale and Major Dartnell to go out the following morning in a certain direction from the camp with their men, i.e., the Native Contingent, and the Police, and Volunteers, part of the 3rd Column. On the evening of the following day (the 21st) a message arrived from Major Dartnell that the enemy was in considerable force in his neighbourhood, and that he and Commandant Lonsdale would bivouac out that night. About 1.30 A.M., on the 22nd, a messenger brought me a note from Major Dartnell, to say that the enemy was in greater numbers than when he last reported, and that he did not think it prudent to attack them unless reinforced by two or three companies of the 24th Regiment. I took this note to Colonel Glyn, C.B., at once, he ordered me to take it on to the General. The General ordered the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, the Mounted Infantry, and four guns, to be under arms at once to march. This force marched out from camp as soon as there was light enough to see the road. The Natal Pioneers accompanied this column to clear the road. The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I. Before leaving the camp, I sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (I speak- from memory) your camp, or your line of defence"—I am not certain which-"while the force is out: also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced." I told him to have a wagon ready loaded with ammunition ready to follow the force going out at a moment's notice, if required. I went to Colonel Pulleine's tent just before leaving camp to ascertain that he had got these instructions, and I again repeated them verbally to him. To the best of my memory, I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it."

In the first instance LC Ordered Clery to send the order.

2nd Pulleine was in command of the camp in the absence of Glyn not Durnford.

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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:36 pm

Correct, if Crealock hadn't poked his nose in, maybe, just maybe, Col Durnford might have received the right orders, however, through Crealock sticking his nose in, the order was not written as LC had at first intended, and Crealock made a pig's ear of it.

Yes, also correct, we know that LC did not leave any orders for Pulleine, so Clery took it upon himself to write out an order to give to Pulleine telling Pulleine that he would be in command of the camp.

Correct again, Pulleine was in command of the camp, not Durnford, that is why Durnford did not push it when Pulleine refused the 2 coy's of the 24th, Durnford understood that Pulleine was in command. Pulleine did say that with Durnford being the senior officer, that if Durnford ordered it, he would let him have two companies, but again Durnford declined to order it, he realised that Pulleine was in command of the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:44 pm

The last two posts written by Frank and Martin are nice and clear, you get no argument from me.

Waterloo
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:56 pm

Waterloo, Salute
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:15 pm

Queen's Regulations says.

"When Regiments or Detachments are united, either in Camp, Garrison or Quarters, the Eldest Officer, whether by brevet or otherwise, is to command the whole."
It doesn't say "if he feels like it". It wasn't for Durnford to choose not to be in command while he was there, QR says he is to command. Very clear and straightforward.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:56 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Correct, if Crealock hadn't poked his nose in, maybe, just maybe, Col Durnford might have received the right orders, however, through Crealock sticking his nose in, the order was not written as LC had at first intended, and Crealock made a pig's ear of it.

Yes, also correct, we know that LC did not leave any orders for Pulleine, so Clery took it upon himself to write out an order to give to Pulleine telling Pulleine that he would be in command of the camp.

Correct again, Pulleine was in command of the camp, not Durnford, that is why Durnford did not push it when Pulleine refused the 2 coy's of the 24th, Durnford understood that Pulleine was in command. Pulleine did say that with Durnford being the senior officer, that if Durnford ordered it, he would let him have two companies, but again Durnford declined to order it, he realised that Pulleine was in command of the camp.

Martin Clery wrote to Pulleine! LC did not dispute that!
Durnford did take command!
Durnford interfered with Pulleines orders.
Crealock's so called order to take command is nither here or there, we know it didn't happen, but the order Durnford received was to move to the camp.
As I pointed out it was clear and concise, Durnford had nothing else to do apart from move, LC stated that he thought it prudent to have Durnford near because of his engineering skills, as Pulleine was ordered to defend the camp, no doubt Durnford would have been useful in the defence department, as Chard was at RD. But Durnford decided to leave the camp on a glory hunt!
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PostSubject: What could Col Pulleine have done to secure the camp with equip avaiable to him    Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:11 am

Steve / Frank
I think you'll find the Skirmishers which over ran the RB were members of the iNgobamakhosi , fairly certain Ian Knight mentions this in Zulu Rising along with other researchers , possibly Jackson & Laband , not home so I cant check .
90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:12 am

rusteze wrote:
Queen's Regulations says.

"When Regiments or Detachments are united, either in Camp, Garrison or Quarters, the Eldest Officer, whether by brevet or otherwise, is to command the whole."
It doesn't say "if he feels like it". It wasn't for Durnford to choose not to be in command while he was there, QR says he is to command. Very clear and straightforward.

Steve

Say no more. However Steve what's the date of these regs?
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PostSubject: Re: What could Col Pulliene have done? To secure the camp and all of its provisions, with the men and equipment available to him.   Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:45 am

Morning Steve
Quote: "When Regiments or Detachments are united
The key word is united, in this case it could be argued that the two columns were not united but potentially ships in the night. We don't unfortunately know Chelmsfords plan, was it his intention that the columns united?
Sorry Ray, still more to say Im afraid.
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