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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 3:27 pm

A question. Does anybody happen to know the names of the civilian Commanders of the Natal Defence Districts in late 1878?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Alexaandra: Steven Bent
Klip River Dartnel
Possibly one other could have been WD Wheelright.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 4:06 pm

Thanks Frank. I think there were seven altogether?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 5:34 pm

Hi Steve
Yes 7, Im still looking for the other 4
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 5:35 pm

Thanks Frank. Will tell you why I ask later.
Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 6:58 pm

Steve,
Maybe the answer to your question is in the booklet " Local geneal orders" from Keith Smith?
Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 7:36 pm

Steve your possibly find the answer in here, haven't got time at present to go through.

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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 7:39 pm

Frederic

I don't have it but perhaps you could take a look for me? I think that Chelmsford did not have control of the Border Levies which he was not happy about. That changed after Isandhlwana. The Defence Districts remained under Bulwer.

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Steve,
No problem, I will take  a look this night.
Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 7:55 pm

Thanks LH I will take a look.
Steve
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 8:51 pm

Steve,

There's a map of the seven defence districts in two of Laband & Thompson's works. See page 34 of The Illustrated Guide to the Anglo-Zulu War and the frontispiece of The Buffalo Border 1879.

John Y.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 9:31 pm

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 9:40 pm

Panic! was the order of the day..below an extract from,
Sir John Robinson..a lifetime in south africa, 1st ed 1900.

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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyWed Feb 17, 2016 11:29 pm

Thanks all. I will follow up.
Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 1:55 am

Steve,
You seem to be right.
I found nothing in the book "Local general orders relating to the AZW of 1879" about civilian commander of the Natal defense districts before the 1st January 1879.
Sorry.
Cheers
Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 5:23 am

Steve
A friend has asked me to pass on the following

Colonial Commanders in Natal, South Africa during 1879
Source: Medal Roll – “Nominal Roll Of Colonial Commander And Levy Leaders Who Were Engaged On Active Service During The Zulu War)
District I * Captain Montgomery
W. W. Beaumont
District II Major-General Lloyd
District III Captain Boycott
District IV A. C. Hawkins
District V J. Giles
District VI Captain G. A Lucas
District VII W. D. Whellwright

Districts I, VII and VI bordered Zululand (Dist. I was to the North; Dist. VI was on the coast; and Dist. VII was in the middle.)

* Major J. G. Dartnell was Colonial Commander of District I from at least early February, 1879 and correspondence signed by him on Feb 2, 1879; Apr 27, 1879 and Jun 14, 1879 appear in “Further Correspondence Regarding the Affairs of South Africa” contained in Parliamentary Papers.
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barry

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PostSubject: Civilian defence districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 5:41 am

Hi All,
Indeed there were seven of them , and these tied generally to the areas denoted as Natal "magisterial  districts" in peace time. It was quite common therefore that the RM or resident magistrate was the head honcho.
RM, Maj James Giles  (ex 14th KRH) was the RM of Harding, so naturally his patch was southern Natal.
Pietermaritzburg city and environs was a sub sector to sector 3. This sector was considered to be very important, so the Colonial Secretary Mitchell had that one.  
RM Beaumont to my knowledge was Klip River or Ladysmith. Rider Haggard comes in here (Klip River?) somewhere too, a little later, for a short time.
Whellwright in Frank's post should spell Wheelwright

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 5:47 am

Thanks Barry, fingers faster than the brain Im afraid. Im also trying to fit Steven Bent into the equation in Alexandria ( Umzinto ) district. Any thoughts?

Cheers
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barry

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PostSubject: Civilian commanders during the AZW   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 5:59 am

Hi Frank,
Sorry the name Bent does not ring bells, but now that my interest has been fired I will research this question further. I know too that these people moved around a little, and their patches changed.

regards

barry
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 8:37 am

Bonjour Steve,

About William Douglas Wheelwright, see the thesis of keith Smith (p.28).
Cheers

Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 8:50 am

steve,
I don't know if it's usfeul for you, but the Resident Magistrate of the Klip River district was W.J.D. Moodie.
(p.72 / Keith Smith's thesis)

Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 12:28 pm

Bingo Frank your "friend" has come up with the name I was looking for Captain Boycott! Can't be related to Geoffrey can he?

This popped up from a bookseller at the weekend and so I grabbed it (can't resist maps).
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

You will see W Boycott pencilled on the front. The label is hand done and I imagine seven were produced for the District commanders. It dates from the meeting between Chelmsford and Bulwer in November 1878 when the arrangements for the defence of the Colony were made just prior to the invasion. There is a good description in the book mentioned by JY, Labands Illustrated Guide.

Hoping it will arrive today. I will let you know more when it gets here.

Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 12:35 pm

I searched a civilian and not an officer!  ("A question. Does anybody happen to know the names of the civilian Commanders of the Natal Defence Districts in late 1878?)

Obviously, I did not understand the question. No No No
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 12:40 pm

Hi Frederic

Your understanding was OK. As far as I know they were civilian posts under the control of Bulwer, Chelmsford didn't like that and much later it changed. I don't yet know anything about "Captain" Boycott but his title may be an historical one.

Steve
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barry

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PostSubject: Defence districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 18, 2016 1:26 pm

Hi All,
Don't be misled by the ranks some of these civilian commanders held. They were generally retired from the military, as was Giles and were in civilian employment, usually the Natal Judiciary. Also perhaps the ranks were carry-overs from the times just a little earlier when the magistrates directly controlled the Natal militias and personally directed belligerent operations.
Frank's list therefore reflects civilian incumbents in those positions.

regards

barry
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Defence Districts    Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 5:38 am

Hi All
From my copy of ' Kingdom & Colony at War ' by Laband & Thompson , page 230 , some more detail and a little different as was posted by Frank on behalf of his friend .
1 / Klip River County Maj J.G.Dartnell
2/ Weenen County / Pietermaritzburg County Maj - Gen W.P.Lloyd
3 / Umgeni Division Maj. W.Boycott
4/ Upper Umkomanzi and Ixopo Divisions Maj A.C. Hawkins
5/ Alexandra and Alfred Counties Capt G.A. Lucas
6/ Durban and Victoria Counties Maj . S.H. Graves
7 / Umvoti County Mr W.D. Wheelwright

It goes on to say P'maritzberg and Durban designated Sub Districts , under Lt- Col CBH Mitchell R.M who was the Colonial Secretary , and Maj J.W Huskisson 56th Foot who was commander of the Imperial Forces ' base of operations

90th
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 10:37 am

Thanks Gary, my man has got instant promotion from captain to Major!

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 11:58 am

There were a number of changes in December Lucas was transferred to District 6 to replace Graves and Major Giles took over district 5.
In January District 6 was taken over by Major AS Walker, District 7 by Major AS Twentyman Jones and District 1 by non other than Colonel RT Glyn. These changed again towards the middle of January when WH Beaumont took over from Glyn and Dartnel.

Steve that would explain the differences between the two list above.

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 12:00 pm

Interesting name Boycott..
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 12:49 pm

Found some information on William Boycott. Born Kidderminster 1840. Was made Ensign in the 29th Worcestershire Regiment 1859. Served in India (Mutiny). Malta 1865 as Major. In 1879 served as Colonial Commander District III during AZW. Died 1884 and is buried at St Mark's Anglican Cemetery Karkloof.

Steve
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Defence Districts    Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 1:44 pm

Hi Steve
He's ( Boycott ) is mentioned in a couple of pages of Laband & Thompson's ' Kingdom & Colony At War ' .
90th
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 3:30 pm

Thanks Gary.

Steve
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barry

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PostSubject: 1878 Civilian defence commanders in Natal   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 4:32 pm

Hi All,
As the original question was ; "who were the commanders in 1878?", the first list ( posted by Frank) is the correct one.
The second one posted by Gary pertains to the situation some 12 months later.

regards

barry
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyFri Feb 19, 2016 4:38 pm

How so if Boycott died in 1884?

Steve
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90th

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PostSubject: Defence Districts    Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 12:01 am

Hi Barry
In ' Kingdom & Colony At War ' page 230 from which I posted yesterday , it states the list I posted was Gazetted 29th Nov 78 and Instructions to those Commandants followed on the 29th Nov 78 ? .
Cheers mate 90th agree
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barry

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PostSubject: Defence commanders '78/'79   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 4:37 am

Hi Gary,

My question is raised by the absence of Maj Giles in Sole's list.
I know that he was very much in the loop in the years pre and post AZW. He did move his residence in the late 1880's to the RM's house, "Beaulieu "in Richmond which timing correlates with the change in defence area responsibility.
Thus, based on that, Frank's list is the more accurate.

regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 4:50 am

Morning Barry
Your up early, watching the highlights from the cricket I hope?
Lucas was gazetted towards the end of November, there was friction with Graves command and Lucas was transferred to take over. Giles then took over from Lucas.
Much as I hate being beaten by an Aussie Very Happy Very Happy I think Gary is right on Giles.

Cheers mate

PS cricket is on in 10 minutes, you would not believe the atmosphere at Newlands last night, never experienced the hysteria like that before.
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90th

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PostSubject: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 5:45 am

Frank did you see McCallum scored the quickest Test 100 on record ? . He clubbed 18 of the 36th over to beat the old record by 2 balls ! No No No No

Very Happy If your a Kiwi ! , I'm not , so I'll stay with Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 5:56 am

Awesum bat by McCallum, hes a warrior. SA beat England by one run in the T20 at Newlands. Incredible evening.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 2:07 pm

The map has arrived and I am very pleased with it. It has an ornate  bookplate which says "The collection of Bryan Hall" which doesn't mean anything to me. The map itself is very detailed. The Defence Districts are numbered in ink and a nice colour wash has been used to show the boundaries. It looks to me that it was hand done in the Surveyor's Department. There are some pencil notes on the reverse with at least one notable name (see the scan). I cannot read the word at the top left but the names that follow are P. Otto and A.Otto. On the right it says York, and underneath Edwin Beckham, William Bently, E. Boast and A. Boast. The last I am assuming is Alfred Boast who completed the burials at Isandhlwana and erected many of the cairns. So all in all a nice original piece. Any thoughts about the names?
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This shows the detail (note the Carbineers Camp).
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Steve
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barry

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PostSubject: Otto and York   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 5:04 pm



Hi Rusteze,

Some distance to the left of your map, ie 30 kms east of Pietermaritzburg is a small timber town called York. Overlooking York, to its west, is a prominent hill feature called Otto's Bluff. I am checking to see if I can pick up which Otto the hill was named after. East of York is a fairly large German community (Hermansberg/New Hanover, shown on your map), who are presently involved in sugar cane cultivation there. These Germans have been in that area for over a century and am fairly certain that one Herr Otto was one of theirs.
Will revert shortly.

regards

barry
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barry

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PostSubject: Otto/York   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 5:45 pm

Bulpin's "Natal an the Zulu Country" says this about Otto's Bluff..., quote" past Otto's Bluff and the well known farm of Petrus Ryno Otto, called "Upper  Saxony" ( who had established himself there in 1841 after migrating from the  Cape)" So, Otto was probably Dutch and not German as I supposed.
The  A. Otto mentioned on your map may have been his son.

regards

barry
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySat Feb 20, 2016 6:12 pm

Thanks Barry thats very useful. Any thoughts about the word at top left?

Steve
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barry

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PostSubject: otto and York   Defence Districts EmptySun Feb 21, 2016 4:38 am

Hi Rusteze,

Bently referred to may have been "Bent", mentioned earlier in this thread. Boast of course is and was then, a common Natal name. One or two members of this family were NMP troopers.

regards

barry
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barry

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PostSubject: Otto's Bluff/York   Defence Districts EmptySun Feb 21, 2016 7:15 am


Hi Rusteze,

The top left word is illegible to me.
Would it be possible to digitally enhance that text and resend it. Directly if you like, to my email.

regards

barry
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Defence Districts    Defence Districts EmptySun Feb 21, 2016 8:24 am

Excellent ' find ' Steve . Well done Mate Salute , Quite Envious ... Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Don\'t agree Joker Joker Joker
90th
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John Young

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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySun Feb 21, 2016 10:24 am

Steve,

The word is Cornet. In British Army terms a junior cavalry officer.

In South Africa Field-Cornets were local junior commanders of local-raised forces.

John Y.
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rusteze

rusteze

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Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptySun Feb 21, 2016 2:07 pm

Thanks JY and all. I will post a couple more shots of places of interest.

Steve
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyMon Feb 22, 2016 10:55 am

This is the area of the map covering Wood's and Chelmsford's columns. It is interesting that neither RD nor Helpmakaar are marked although it does show the bridle path to the drift. Dundee is marked in pencil in two places, so there was some uncertainty on Boycott's part. Notice too that up in the blank part of the map near the N of Natal is written Khambula in pretty much the right place. This shows the map was in use during the first invasion.
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The second shot is the area of the Drakensberg and shows the Bushman's River Pass and the Carbineers Grave. This is where Durnford attempted to prevent Langalibalele's Hlubi from escaping into Basutoland back in 1873, with dire results both for the Hlubi and for Durnford.
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Steve


Last edited by rusteze on Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

John Young

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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Defence Districts   Defence Districts EmptyThu Feb 25, 2016 7:35 am

Steve,

I've found a possible for your 'P. Otto' in a new acquisition an official Army List: Jan-Mar 1879.

What got me looking was the 24th's officer casualties for Isandlwana had been struck out in pencil for February and March.  I wondered if the person had been diligent enough to do the same for the other units.

Whilst searching under the entry for the Natal Carbineers, is an entry for the Karkloof Carbineers in which I found two names relating to your map:
Capt.
Maj. W. Boycott, late 29 F. 6 Aug.77

Lieuts.
P.A.R. Otto, jun. 4 Jan.75

The dates given above are when they were appointed/commissioned to that rank in the unit.

I hope that helps?

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wondered inserted.)
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