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 Wagons at Isandlwana

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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:26 pm

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90th

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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:51 am

Les
Great photo's I haven't seen them before .
Frank
Excellent photo .
Gives us a good view of then and now doesn't it ?
90th .
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:19 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Note that the photos were taken in late June not May.
Julian
Im curious why you say that Julian, didn't Lloyd accompany the 21st May Cavalry Brigade visit?

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:22 am

Gary
You should have a similar shot taken from the balcony?
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PostSubject: Isandlwana, an artists view   Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:35 am

Hi Xhosa,

A nice water colour giving the viewer some perspectives.
First observation is all of the oxen standing idle, and another is a comment about the size of the dongas.
A bit puzzled about the location of the peak showing a short distance down the backslope of Isandlwana.


regards

barry
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90th

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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:09 am

Hi Frank
I certainly have plenty taken from the Balcony , unfortunately , my empty Beer Bottles have been known to get in the way !!! Joker Joker Hhahahahahaha.
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:41 am

agree
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:17 am

Yes, but the opinion has been for the last few years that they were taken in late June. The solitary soldier on the saddle is 94th Regt. if I remember correctly, and he's not standing guard.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:51 am

Interestingly that could answer the question of the lack of numbers of waggons shown. Melton Prior recorded that on the visit of the 19thMay they took away some 40 wagons leaving around 20 disabled.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:58 am

And I imagine there would have been a fair bit of shuffling them around so that they could get out the ones that were moveable.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:59 am

Small question, weren't the 94th part of the second division at Entonjaneni in June?
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:44 am

Melton Prior says that the spare horses that were taken up with the column were hitched to 40 wagons and water carts that were serviceable and taken back to RD. Presumably that means that the large ox wagons were not removed.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:49 am

Morning Steve
ive been re reading MP, his figures go a little awry, from his initial estimate of 100 he says 40 were removed and twenty left on site? Sounds like my wife doing her budget.
Cheers, sorry forgot about the ear CHEERS!
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:16 am

It just so happened that your reference to Melton Prior co-incided with the arrival of probably the biggest bargain so far in my quest for AZW literature! I just paid the princely sum of 88 pence (yes pence) for a leather bound first edition of his "Campaigns of a War Correspondent". So, feeling suitably smug, this is what he says about wagons and the return trip to Isandhlwana (which he places as 21 May) in that book.

"Next morning we started at six o'clock, four hundred men of he 24th having joined the column. At last the historical hill of Isandlwana came in sight. All glasses were soon out to examine the place, and the wagons were easily seen, still there, not one having been moved by the enemy."

"All this time scouting parties had been firing the Zulu Kraals all around, which were blazing brilliantly, while other parties were engaged in hitching the spare horses that had been brought with the column on to some forty wagons and water carts, which were found sufficiently fit to travel and these having beeen started off under escort ,the return march was commenced, and we returned to Rorke's Drift tired and weary"..


Steve
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:23 am

Julian,

The soldier is from the 1st (King's) Dragoon Guards, as evidenced by his Austrian knots on his cuffs.  He wears suspended ammunition pouches over shoulder, and he is equipped with shovel.  Somewhere here I have a professional enlargement of the soldier.  I can categorically say he is not a member of the 94th, who were based at Conference Hill from 3rd May 1879 before moving to Koppie Alleen on 30th May 1879.  

Given that the photograph was taken by Frederick Lloyd, who appears to have accompanied Marshall's reconnaissance in force, I personally believe the photograph was taken on 21st May 1879.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:39 am

I hate smug !
In his "In Zululand with the British etc" he says on the 17th Saturday they were informed there would be a patrol on the 19th. Ah it dawns, they overnighted at Dills, and then at RD so yes that puts the iSandlwana visit at the 21st. I see as well the 100 figure was mentioned by one of Blacks earlier parties.
Comes back to the date of the photos from Lloyd though. May or June?
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:35 pm

Bonjour,
It seems to me that IK also wrote that the photographs were taken in June. (from memory: Only dragons are photographed, too few wagons on the photographies, too dangerous for a civilian in May...); I think there is an essay published on this subject, with the hope of the author to find more photos of Lloyd sleeping in an attic!
Cheers
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:56 pm

Frederic,

Interesting as in their joint work ...The & Now Ian Knight and Ian Castle state the photograph dates from 21st May 1879.

From MacKinnon & Shadbolt's work:
KING'S DRAGOON GUARDS.

...Before daylight on the 21st [May] the brigade crossed the Buffalo River, and advanced with such speed as due precaution would allow to the battle-ground of Isandhlwana. Many bodies were recognized and buried, and thirty-wagons and a rocket-cart were brought away, every available horse of the transport service having been taken for the purpose.

There is no other entry relating to the KDG returning to Isandlwana.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:12 pm

Hi John
I have the KDG under Drury Lowe been present after scouting Sihayos Kraal on the 21st May under Gen Marshall.
They were also present on the 27th June on Blacks visit. His report: " The force under my command-Thirty Kings Dragoon Guards (Mounted), fifty on foot, 140 2-24th Regiment etc
So two visits?

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:14 pm

Sorry just changed 27th May to June in above
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:22 pm

Frank,

Just to clarify I was referring to their Mac & Shad entry.

Just for further clarification do you mean your entry should read 27th May?

John Y.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:23 pm

Mr Young,
Apparently this is not IK...!
I'll try to find the reference at my return at home. I'm sure I read an article about Lloyd's photos but I do not remember where!

From Graham Alexander:("1st Kings Dragoon Guards - the other Regiment")

(...)On the 16th May both Lancers and Dragoons were formed into a brigade and paraded through the town of Dundee at 7am. The following day saw them working together, practicing dismounted firing and performing covering charges. Both regiments now seemed ready for action in the second invasion of Zululand.
On the 19th May, the brigade under the command of Major-General Frederick Marshall marched to the Zulu border at Rorke’s drift. Here they could expect to find plenty of grain with which to feed the hungry horses. They were not to remain at the drift for long however. It was the intention for the brigade to rapidly advance to Isandlwana, carry out burial duties and try to recover some of the abandoned wagons, which were so desperately needed for transport duties.
On the 21st May the cavalry brigade and some infantry, crossed the Buffalo river at daybreak and proceeded to Isandlwana. After burying some of the numerous dead, they began their return, bringing with them 39 wagons, 2 water carts, 3 Scotch carts and a rocket cart. Any abandoned Zulu homesteads that they encountered were burnt on the journey back.(...)


(...)In order to keep the Lancers in the saddle, up to 70 horses were taken from the K.D.G s and sent on for use by the 17th Lancers. This order practically disbanded the Dragoons. Captain Charles Adrian Gough Becher and veterinary surgeon Longhurst were sent urgently to the Orange Free State, in order to buy more remounts for the regiment. When another burial party was sent to Isandlwana on the 28th June, it is interesting to note that while only 30 mounted Dragoons were attached, another 50 K.D.G s on foot accompanied it.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:31 pm

Hi John
I did correct it, obviously Im not as quick as you. So there would be a possibility that the photo was taken in June considering the KDG were there. Its the reference to the 94th from Julian that has me puzzled. I have a problem in trying to match up the three photos with the wagon positions, scrutiny under magnification hasn't helped at all. In particular the photo of the chap digging is extremely difficult to place relative to the others. I can place him exactly on the ground relative to my contemporary photos. But that positioning cant be matched with the wagons shown. Conclusion would be I assume that the 'Man Digging' was the first photo taken and then much later in the day when the waggons had been moved the second was taken from the side of Mahalabamkosi and then lastly the third. Wonder what he was doing in between?

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:39 pm

Hi Gary, as always Salute Thanks Barry... JY as
usual is spot on.
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90th

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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:42 pm

Hi Frank
Yes , according to the ' Narrative Of Field Ops ' the 94th Regt , which was part of the 2nd Divis , arrived at Entonjaneni on the 27th June .
90th You need to study mo
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:46 pm

I agree the photos are hard to match. There is clearly a wagon with a hooped cover frame in the soldier digging shot, but none that I can see in the other two. Is the "soldier digging" taken from the Isandhlwana slope perhaps?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:50 pm

Hi Steve
Its taken looking west towards RD, the slope on his left shoulder, right of shot, is the lower slope of the mountain, slightly round the corner and heading down hill a touch.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:43 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:50 pm

John
Thanks. Yes, I've checked my notes now. Not the 94th as I guessed (apologies Frank), but 1st Dragoon Guards. And my memory is definitely going, sorry all, not late June as per Ian Knight et al. but 21st May and definitely by Frederick Lloyd. I simply confused the dates. Sincere apologies. (Now you know why I hate being rushed to finish something; I have to check everything.)
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:52 pm

Xhosa
Where did that enlargement come from?
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:22 pm

Hi Julian, it was pasted in my scrapbook..it
is an original article.so i will have to search
and find the whole thing..i understand your
problem about being rushed, i of course have
the opposite problem..fools rush in syndrome.
rueful grin..
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:58 pm

Xhosa
It's just that it's a very good enlargement and I'd like to use it in an article to show a waggon up close and I would like to acknowledge of course.
Has something stuck to the photo just above the rear wheel? And why has the left-hand side of the photo been shifted downwards so that it doesn't align with the right?
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:38 pm

Again Julian, i cant remember where the piece
originates, i regularly enlarge images that are
of interest to me, i can't for the life of me recall
the publication they were from, South Africa does
ring a bell, which begs the question did they have
access to some of Lloyds work?, i will keep on
looking, if some members can assist great, i for
myself have no interest in acknowledgement or
credit.

The points you highlight, the fact is i stuck the
images in my book that way..rear wheel, above,
i have no idea.you are very welcome to use what
you see fit as far as i am concerned.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:13 pm

No doub't there's a lot more photos to be discovered. Who know's they could change the whole history of the Battle of Isandlwana. Perhaps Xhosa had found his place on the forum, like me and Graves1879 he had a nack for digging them out. It's not easy you know. agree
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:14 pm

The photo appears full page in IK's "Zulu War Then and Now" ( page 80). It would stand a similar enlargement with equivalent detail.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:20 pm

Julian,

What are you actually after from the photograph?

Here's the enlargement I had made to clearly show the Austrian knots, rather than the trefoils of line infantry:

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A soldier of the 1st (King's) Dragoon Guards at Isandlwana.
John Young Collection.

Here's the full photograph - sorry it is damaged.

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A soldier of the 1st (King's) Dragoon Guards at Isandlwana.
John Young Collection.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:08 pm

Outstanding Mr Young!
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:06 pm

Bonsoir,

According to Ian Knight:
"A companion to the AZW", p.159,, key word "photographers", note 208 p.246

"Photographers": "(...) Llyod  had photographed (...) and in June he made an extended tour of the central border, photographing the fortified storehouse at Rorke's drift (...) and British Dragoons burying some of the remains which still lay exposed at Isandlwana (note 208)".

Note 208:"Llyod did not accompany the burial expedition of 21 May, and the photographs clearly show a very different state to the battlefield, many of the wagons having been removed on the earlier occasion".


Cheers

Frédéric
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:17 pm

ymob
A very interesting comment re Lloyd from Knight. The mystery thickens.

Littlehand
The photo is not a new find. It's just a very good enlargement of detail from an old one.

John
Actually it's the waggon immediately to the soldier's right I was after.
Any thoughts on Knight's comment on Lloyd?
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PostSubject: Wagons   Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:09 am

Hi John,
Nice pics. Interesting! Thanks for posting.
I see  two wagons of same style and another smaller one, tented, after a BA design ?.
However the two which are similar appear to have wheel/ mudguards fitted on the rear wheels, a most unusual modification. One appears to have been carrying at least one broken open wooden box. The brakes on the rear one of the two appear to have been released. Now, just maybe, these being very large were the reserve ammo wagons, not moved by the Zulu's too far because of their weight.

regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:07 am

As drawn by Lt Penrose RE
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:10 am

Julian,

I find it contradictory to what he has previously written, I can only assume that he has discovered material that refutes his previous finding.  As we well know things still change as far research goes on into the campaign.

What I can see is that from ...Then & Now work to the Companion... - that Frederic has brought to our attention - he has corrected the forename from Frederick to the correct one of James.

As an aside I don't think that any Dragoon Guard would like to be referred to a dragoon!  Something I had to bring up recently with my publisher.

In the meantime I will take a look at the other Lloyd Isandlwana photographs that I have and see if I can draw my own conclusions.

Barry,

I just wonder if the wagon on the right with the canvas removed might be an ambulance.  Melton Prior depicts one without its canvas in his sketch in the Illustrated London News.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:39 am

This is I believe where the photo of the 'digger' was taken.
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A longer view of the area, the group of cairns below the shear face of the mountain diagonal line to the right.
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I don't know if this will move the debate forward or not. but in the Lloyd photo ( Dragoons milling around in the camp area) there is a group of what appears to be broken wagons on the extreme left. That is the position I believe the 'digger' was busy. However the two groups of wagons don't match up, that would indicate to me that the photos were at different times, possibly the same day possibly different days.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Wagons   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:44 am

Hi John/Frank,

Thanks for pictures

John,
I concur, too small for a cargo type wagon.

Frank,
Thanks, die ware Jacob.
The guards over the rear wheels are very plain in the drawing.
I note too that the drawing is titled "ox" wagon and 16 to 20 oxen are recommended for traction, ie a big one.
Somewhat amusing to see that this wagon has "hind" wheels, ie not rear ones.

regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:06 am

John
I seem to recall, possibly the other Lloyd, William Whitelocke, mentioning the ambulance wagon being visible from the top of RD. If my positioning of the 'digger' is correct on the reverse slope it would have been highly visible from RD so yes the small wagon could very well be the ambulance wagon. That being said how many of them were in use at iSandlwana, I have a feeling that the one Shepherd loaded was attacked on the way out of the camp area.

Barry. I wouldn't have liked to try moving one of those into by hand.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:40 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
John
I seem to recall, possibly the other Lloyd, William Whitelocke, mentioning the ambulance wagon being visible from the top of RD. Cheers

Bonjour Frank

I have also read a testimony about this fact. Maybe from Harford.
As I wrote yesterday, I am sure there is somewhere an essay about the photographies taken by Llyod. Actually, I can't find it.
Cheers
Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:55 am

Morning Frederic
Im also looking.
John
Ive been comparing the small wagon in the photo with the Penrose drawings. There are some significant differences between the General Service wagon and the ambulance in the tent area. The GSW has a much lower profile and there are no horizontal struts to the tent frame. In the GSW there are 5 tent frames, the ambulance 3. The spacing of the tent frames on the GSW are very equal whilst the ambulance two spacings are radically different.
Looking at the photo, the spacings of the visible tent frames match up with the Penrose drawing. There are horizontal struts bracing the tent frames.
The profile of the tent is much higher.

Hope that helps.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:58 am

Barry

I think it's just a standard ox-waggon.

John

The fact that it contradicts makes it more reliable, yes?

Re "I don't think that any Dragoon Guard would like to be referred to a dragoon!" - Well, not to his face!

I has always thought that it was an ambulance but a few days ago I compared the rear end with the drawings by Penrose and I'm now not so sure it is an ambulance.

I look forward to your further thought re the photos' date.

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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:59 am

Frank
Our posts overlapped. Are you saying you think it is an ambulance?
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:10 am

Hi Julian
Im at this stage just pointing out the differences between the wagons, I don't think its an Ox wagon, either a GSW or an ambulance. So far the design points more towards an ambulance. Ive also looked at the comparison with a mule wagon, the tent strut mountings don't conform though.
Ive posted this on a separate thread but its probably germain in locating an ambulance wagon on the neck.
Probably crossing over a couple of threads but regarding the position Shepherd died. Testimony has been that Shepherd died whilst helping Macleroy, or shortly afterwards. Macleroys headstone and cairn is quite some way down the trail of on the side of the rear of Mahlabamkosi. Theoretically then I would assume he is buried under one of the cairns on the trail,
Harford however comments: "Surgeon major Shepheard, at one time Assistant surgeon of the 99th regiment, lay within a few yards of the ambulance Wagon and close to where I was posted on the neck of the hill at Isandlwana the night of the 22nd."

For the purpose of this thread Im ignoring the Shepherd content and just using the confirmation that there was an ambulance in the area. Im still looking for the eye witness that saw it from RD.

Cheers
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