WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyToday at 11:37 am by lydenburg

» Writing advice
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash

» Sergeant W E Warren RA - Veteran
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 9:32 pm by Matthew Turl

» Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu Dawn
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» 100,000 posts!
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra

» British rations and morale
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» William J Hoare 24th Regiment??
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash

» Swinburn Carbine issue in AZW
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young

» Philip Price
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra

» About the second invasion
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Watford band boys killed at iSandlwana
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN

» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997

» What was the distance?
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan

» Mrs Henry Hook
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny

» "With 6 good riflemen"
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» What was G company supposed to do?
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William Wylie
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young

» South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60th
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody

» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie

» Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-Tynte
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg

» How many started?
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
Dash
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
Hobbes
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
SRB1965
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
Bill8183
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
John Young
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
jgregory
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
Tim Needham
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
1879graves
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_leftWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 BarWagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Bar_right 
New topics
» Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyToday at 11:37 am by lydenburg

» Writing advice
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 8:57 pm by Hobbes

» 100,000 posts!
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySun Mar 17, 2024 11:14 am by ADMIN

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 8:27 pm by Rob Herrick

» British rations and morale
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:24 pm by Hobbes

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell

» About the second invasion
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Wagons at Isandlwana

Go down 
+16
John
impi
Ray63
barry
John Young
littlehand
eaton
ADMIN
90th
Ulundi
xhosa2000
Julian Whybra
rusteze
waterloo50
ymob
Frank Allewell
20 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 9:19 am

Harford:
".....the stench which was mostly from the smashed up contents of the Royal Army Medical Corps wagon containing all manner of chemicals, within a few yards of us was truly aweful."
And again: " Isandlwana hill and the nek on which we had slept on the night of the disaster was always in sight, together with the hospital wagons which showed up clearly against the skyline........
Interesting thing about the second quote is the plural. So more than one ambulance wagon.
Good confirmation that there were ambulance wagons close to the top of the nek/saddle slope.

Seems to fit rather well.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3230
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 9:36 am

Frank,

Are you quoting from a subsequent Harford article? Is it one of the 1929 pieces?

Only the Royal Army Medical Corps did not exist until 1898, hence the reason for my query.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 9:46 am

Hi John
Quotes are from Harford his writings, Photographs and Sketches. D and E Payne. The mention of the RAMC is very specific, possibly notes made after the war?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 9:48 am

See his journal (Child).
I am not at home
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3230
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:23 am

Frank,

Just seen the same text in both Daphne Child's (page 33) and Paynes' work (page 130).

This puts his journal post-1898, and seems to confirm Child's assumption that journal was not a contemporary work, but a subsequent one possibly based on his contemporary notes.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:40 am

John
What it does do John is confirm the presence of at least one ambulance on the saddle and also that was either on the brow of the saddle slope or the reverse slope, close to the brow.
Julian
Comparing the wheel size, rear that is, the ox wagons seem to be much larger diameter. So in answer to your earlier question, there is a good chance it is an ambulance.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:42 am

Didn't Black also record coming across the ambulance waggon on the saddle?
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:51 am

In Norris-Newman's books (burial party)?
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:52 am

ymob
Yes, that's right, thanks, and that was on the saddle, wasn't it?
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 10:55 am

Small point, but are we sure that Harford's "RAMC" medical wagon, containing all sorts of chemicals, was in fact an ambulance wagon or just supplies?

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:04 am

Mr Whybra,
Sorry, I haven't the book at hand (i am not at home).
It seems to me that the book of NN is in the collection of the website "archive.org" .
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Ambulance wagon   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:06 am

Hi All,

I think the correct description is "spring ambulance wagon", see" Helpmekaar hospital parient" thread on this forum.
Wheels were all the same size and traction would have been two mules normally, sometime four ( for more speed)

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3230
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:26 am

I hope this helps:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
An ambulance?
John Young Collection.

John Y.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:33 am

Frederic
Just read through NN, cant find the reference you refered to, I have no doubt you will later today. Salute
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:39 am

Frank,
From memory, Mr Jackson in "Hill of the Sphinx", in the annexe "Burial party" just before the annexe "Musketry" (at the end of the book) wrote that you can find the testimony from BLACK in "With the British Army..." by NN.
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 11:49 am

Here are a couple of ambulance wagons from the Graphic.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyWed Mar 09, 2016 1:54 pm

John
An ambulance that's been ransacked and destroyed by a rampaging Zulu army high on Tchala.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyThu Mar 10, 2016 10:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:16 am

Photoshop?
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4349
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 64
Location : KENT

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:20 am

Nope! Not even close?
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:21 am

Artist's impression?
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:28 am

I'm using a app! Called image blender, just getting the hang of using it.


Last edited by littlehand on Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:38 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Photoshop?

Julian I did try photoshop far to complicated.

There are some very good apps out there to edit photos, I had a really good one, but the up-dates stopped and is just ads now, so deleted it,
I also use Snapseed possibly the best for editing.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10881
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 67
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 9:57 am

Littlehand your English , please speak it ! , this sounds like a different language Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker .
90th Very Happy
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 1:49 pm

Sorry mate forgot you was a pen & paper man. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyFri Mar 11, 2016 11:15 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
It was worth ago!
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10881
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 67
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Mar 12, 2016 2:08 am

Littlehand I still struggle with Pen & Paper to be honest ! Rolling Eyes
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySat Mar 12, 2016 10:21 pm

Bonjour,

About the ambulance wagon at Isandhlwana:

"To Major-General Marshall belongs the credit of performing the long-neglected duty of revisiting the fatal battlefield of Isandhlwana (...).
A short description of the spot [Isandhlwana] taken from that written by Mr. Archibald Forbes, may be of insterest:
"(...) On the edge of a gully was a gun-limber jammed, its horse hanging in their harness down the steep face of the ravine; a little farther on a broken ambulance-wagon, with its team of mules dead in their harness, and around were the bodies of the poor fellows who had been dragged from the intercepted vehicle. Following the trail of bodies through long grass and scattered stores, the crest was reached (...).

"Daily News", 20th June, 1879 / Quoted in "History of the Zulu War and its origin" (1880), pp.403-4-5).

So the testimony of Harford about this point was reliable.


Cheers.

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptySun Mar 13, 2016 9:51 am

Thanks Frederic - I really hadn't had time to look for this.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 5:39 am

How many ambulances crossed the Buffalo? Ive seen the figure somewhere but struggling to find it. 6 seems to stick in my mind for no parent reason with 2 being taken out by Chelmsford, leaving 4 at iSandlwana
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10881
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 67
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 6:55 am

Hi Frank
I was looking through ' Medical History Of The War In Zululand 1879 ' compiled by Surgeon General Woolfryes he states 6 Ambulances ' Captured ' at Isandlwana . In an earlier report Woolfryes mentions the Ambulances and the problems of getting enough of them , they had 28 in total , after all sorts of ' wagons ' were collected , and converted to Ambulances , he then states they thought they'd need double that number , and he then says '' it was a great relief when 30 English Regulation Ambulances arrived , and just in time to relieve a pressure that was occurring at Ft Pearson '', unfortunately no date is given ! No .
90th You need to study mo
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 7:25 am

Thanks 90th, there is a list somewhere, just cant find the thing. My notes say 6 crossed the buffalo, two were taken by Chelmsford that should have left 4 at iSandlwana. The reason for the question is trying to separate Harford from Forbes.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 12:21 pm

Bonjour
About the attempted escape of the ambulance during the battle: see the testimony from Harry Davies (Edendale tropps) quoted for example in Zulu Rising.
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 1:41 pm

I know that Davies mentions a wagon pulled by mules that were stabbed along with the occupants, I don't recall mention of an ambulance though? Ive just had a look at IK, he mentions that the 'sight of the ambulance wagon occupants being killed unnerved/upset Davies. But it isn't Davies who refers to an ambulance.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 1:55 pm

From Zulu Rising:
"As he watched, Davies saw a covered wagon drawn by twelve mules start off down the road towards Rorke's Drift. It was one of Surgeaon Sheperd's ambulance wagons, marked by a large red cross painted on the canvas, a desperate attempt to evacuate some of the wounded before it was too late. But the road was closed - and there was no way out of the camp now to wheeled traffic; "They had got about 100 yard [92 metres] from the hill when all the mules were stabbed and the occupants of the wagon. I saw the Zulus jumping into the wagon..." ).
There was no way through, either, for the guns...

Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 1:57 pm

Frank,
If it was not the ambulance-wagon, what wagon?
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 2:16 pm

Frederic
There were quite a few wagons attempting to escape, could have been anyone really. As far as the 'occupants' I should imagine that when the fleeing men saw transport the leapt on board. Im trying to locate where IK got the info he attributes to Davies. Knowing him it will be somewhere.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 2:24 pm

I don't recall wagons attempting to escape (except the two gun's carriadges and the wagon-ambulance) and
the wagon described by Davies was coupled with mules not oxen...
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 2:38 pm

IK repeats the fact that Davies witnessed an ambulance wagon being over run in the chapter 'Did you hear that'
'At Isandlwana, the sight of the ambulance wagon being overrun and the men inside dragged out and stabbed had caused Harry Davies of the Edendale troop to pause for a moment on the nek.'
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 3:15 pm

Frederic
The Colonial wagon was drawn by 8 to 10 mules. Penrose RE.
Waterloo
Davies doesn't mention an ambulance in his statement.
The ambulance description is provided by Forbes" A little further on was a broken and battered ambulance waggon, with its team of mules mouldering in their harness, and around lay the corpses of soldiers. poor helpless wretches, dragged out of an intercepted vehicle, and done to death without a chance of life."
Without doubt the ambulance was below the line of the neck and its highly possible it was the one witnessed by Davies, its suprising that Davies didn't see fit to record that while taking the time to count the number of mules pulling it? Potentially then there were other wagons trying to escape by road, in Lloyds painting from the top of the Oskaberg he shows wagons in a donga to the side of the road below the waggon park.
Just rambling thoughts.

Cheers

Back to top Go down
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 3:34 pm

Frank Thank you,
I think its just the way in which IK tells the story that gives the impression that he was citing Davies direct. I have re-read that chapter and IK does not say anywhere that Davies described the ambulance.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 3:41 pm

Davies's Report does not mention an ambulance, merely a waggon attempting to escape with wounded loaded aboard.
It might have been an ambulance, it might not. It might have been a waggon being used as an ad-hoc ambulance, it might not.
Certainly one ambulance tried it because Forbes described it and drew it and it may be in the famous photo as well. Probably more than one ambulance and/or waggon tried it. Nevertheless...
it would be wrong to marry up the Forbes and Davies accounts as describing the same incident as there is no proof.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 4:02 pm

IK is either being a little cheeky or he has a reference we do not know about (quite likely). In ZR he conflates Davies account of the escaping wagon (in which he does not say it was an ambulance wagon) with Forbes report 4 months later in which he describes the shattered and broken ambulance wagon surrounded by bodies. IK's only reference in ZR is to Davies report and while he does not ascribe the word "ambulance" to Davies he does clearly say that is what he saw. It cannot be shown conclusively that the wagon seen by Davies is one and the same as that described by Forbes based on the footnotes in ZR.

PS Julian. SNAP PPS It doesn't even say there were wounded aboard just that the occupants were stabbed.
Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 4:43 pm

Do we know testimonies about "others wagons triyng to escape by road" , except the ambulance -wagon , the gun's cariadges and the reference to the Llyod's painting)?
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 4:46 pm

rusteze
I imply no intentional criticism of IK. Sometimes in one's mind it is easy to conflate accounts, to connect what apparently are one and the same thing, especially when they are minor events in a much larger work. A case of not seeing the trees for the wood! IK did something similar with Adendorff and 'the brave fugitive'. It's just a slip of the pen and a mistaken conflation becomes fact!
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 4:56 pm

Julian

I agree, a small drop in a large ocean. We are obsessed with the minutiae!

Steve
Back to top Go down
eaton

eaton


Posts : 72
Join date : 2016-01-20

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 5:01 pm

rusteze wrote:
Julian

I agree, a small drop in a large ocean. We are obsessed with the minutiae!

Steve

I was just thinking the same thing myself Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 6:18 pm

In the big silver book, page 88 IK is pretty categorical connecting Davies and the ambulance.
Frederic.
Davies either saw the ambulance or another waggon, ergo the possibility is there that at least one other waggon tried to escape.
Sorry the thread has got a tad distracted with this. Forbes saw an ambulance on the road on the way up to the neck, the photo we have been examining has a possible ambulance and medical supply wagon. that would place Harford on or close to that point of square for the night of the 22nd. He mentions twice the body of Shepherd, its position and wounds. Isnt it then highly likely that is where he died?
Steve/ eaton the minutae becomes very important in connecting some very small and far apart dots.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3949
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 6:31 pm

Frank
IK is indeed categorical BUT his footnote for the incident ONLY gives 'Davies, Report' as the source.  And that does not mention an ambulance.  If IK had a second source he would have mentioned it as he does elsewhere where he combines sources.
I've been through all the other Davies accounts and there's no mention of an ambulance anywhere.  IK would not have found an as yet unknown source, used its content, and then not mentioned it in footnotes.  He's too professional.
I agree with your stressing the importance of connecting the minutiae - and therein les the problem - there is no known certain connection between the two descriptions.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wagons at Isandlwana   Wagons at Isandlwana - Page 7 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2016 6:36 pm

Julian
Ive done the same exercise  hence my arguments above.
Do you have access to the number of ambulances that crossed the buffalo?
Frederic
Smith Dorrien"..........when this final charge took place the traffic which was in spanned had mostly cleared the neck."

Cheers
Back to top Go down
 
Wagons at Isandlwana
Back to top 
Page 7 of 12Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 6, 7, 8 ... 10, 11, 12  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Would there have been enough wagons.
» Drivers of the waggons?
» Covered Wagons

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: